May 31, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #878314apushatayidParticipant
Google translate translated aunt as momma again for me. Maybe it knows yiddish is not my primary (secondary) language and figures it can get away with anything.May 31, 2012 2:54 am at 2:54 am #878315
I am fortunate to have a copy of the Sepher “Machberes Menachem” a grammar book quoted numerous times by the saintly Rashi.
Believe it or not, there is a section at the back in English which was translated already back in the 1850’s, so English has been on the Jewish scene for a very long time, to say the very least.May 31, 2012 5:22 am at 5:22 am #878316NechomahParticipant
APY – I asked Google translate to translate aunt and I get ???? – This is not momma – it’s mumme – which is a second translation for the word aunt just like tante. The vav does not sound like an o in Yiddish it’s either an oi because of the ashkenazik pronunciation or an oo for a shuruk. And the ayin takes an eh sound not an ah sound – that would be an aleph.May 31, 2012 6:09 am at 6:09 am #878317
“Mama” is a goyish word as in “tante” (both are found in several European languages). So apparently “mama loshon” has a non-Jewish mother.May 31, 2012 7:00 am at 7:00 am #878318
mdd -“Health, if you want to hold that 2+2=5, you are welcome to do it. No matter what we say to you, you won’t agree. If it advances the cause of anti-Zionism to say that we all live on the Moon, you won’t have a problem with it.”
MDD, if you want to hold that 2+2=5, you are welcome to do it. No matter what we say to you, you won’t agree. If it advances the cause of Zionism to say that we all live on the Moon or Uganda, you won’t have a problem with it.
The truth hurts – doesn’t it?May 31, 2012 7:15 am at 7:15 am #878319
Avi K -“Health, according to #1 Yiddish is a dialect. Having a different alphabet does not make a difference. The Serbs and Croats use different alphabets but Serbo-Croatian is one language.”
You’re getting much more clever than ever before -you almost had me fooled. I researched that language, even though one is written in Latin (Croats) and the other Cryllic (Serbs and others), the Alpha -Bet is almost exactly the same -they had examples of both.
Yiddish has a totally different Alpha -Bet than German. I looked this up also – From Wikipedia:
Notice they write it’s a “separate language” because of the different alpha-bet!May 31, 2012 7:55 am at 7:55 am #878320
MDG – “Shairootim means servicies, or as I would translate it in this case “facilities”. You might say to someone in English, “I need to to use the facilities.” It’s just another way to refer to the “Bais Hakeesay””
So you’re agreeing with me that it wasn’t a good example because it’s slang? You are trying to make it sound like I’m wrong somehow. Also, the Rambam uses the word Taalis -so this word wasn’t made up recently by some Koifer. So there is no comparison to something like “Dayog”.
I did some research into these languages. Did you know they had this argument in Europe which language should be the Jewish language -Yiddish or Ivrit?
Let me tell you about this guy Ben -Yehuda -he just wasn’t a non-religious guy -he was Anti-religion. He started out as a Frum kid -became a Maskil -then a Zionist.
It seems he wanted a language that people in the street could speak, not just learned Chachomim. This I don’t understand -why can’t they speak LK? So I think he made a language to mock LK. That’s why he decided to put the Sefardi pronunciation to it -to make fun of it (LK). If my hunch is correct, it might be Ossur or definitely preferable Not to speak Ivrit. Some say people who know Ivrit before they learn Torah don’t get the proper meaning of what the Torah means because of the different meanings of Ivrit. When Teddy H. liked the English (British) idea of the Jewish homeland in Uganda, Ben-Yehuda was all for it. I guess this kind of proves he wanted nothing to do with Kedusha. So his language is No offshoot of Kedusha -it had to me mocking the holy language (LK).
Now back to Europe -the Zionists started pushing their Hebrew (Ivrit) there and a lot of Jews didn’t like it. A bunch of Non-Frum intellectual Jews got together in Vilna in the 20’s to counter act this. They started an org. called YIVO to push Yiddish as the Jewish language.
So I should be worse than a bunch of Freye Yidden who saw through what the Tzionim were doing with this Ivrit, and speak this ridiculous language?May 31, 2012 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #878322apushatayidParticipant
I see, would tante be more appropriate for every day usage though? Someone in shul told me he thought they were using some sort of hungarian word which when he pronounced it sounded like “meemeh” (long e at the beginning and short e at the end) instead of a yiddish word. I know less hungarian than yiddish, so I don’t know if he was pulling my leg or being serious.May 31, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #878323
Health said about Ben-Yehuda: “So I think he made a language to mock LK. That’s why he decided to put the Sefardi pronunciation to it -to make fun of it (LK). “
I think that he understood that the Sefardi pronunciation was more correct.
I know he was a kofer, but that does not invalidate everything that he did.May 31, 2012 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #878324
The Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct. Ben Yehuda simply hated anything to do with Torah Judaism.May 31, 2012 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #878325
“Rambam uses the word Taalis -so this word wasn’t made up recently by some Koifer. So there is no comparison to something like “Dayog”. “
Tallis was not a Hebrew word (at least not in the Tanakh) and became incorporated at some point. Other words came into Hebrew like Sanhedrin, Gematria, and other Greek words. Do you say that since the Ancient Greeks were depraved pagans that we cannot use their words?
Dayag reminds me of Dayan. A dayag works with dag and a dayan works with din. Is it the exact same rule? I don’t think so, but close enough. Could it have been better? Maybe, but that’s a moot point now.
“So you’re agreeing with me that it wasn’t a good example because it’s slang? You are trying to make it sound like I’m wrong somehow. “
It seems to me that you want to harshly criticize, which is based on Sinat Chinam, and that is wrong. I’m just trying to dan l’chaf zechut.May 31, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #878326
MDG – “I know he was a kofer, but that does not invalidate everything that he did.”
True, but everything he did is suspect. You seem to ignore my point that this guy who made Ivrit wanted Jews to speak this language in their homeland of Uganda. If this doesn’t sever all ties to Loshon Hakodesh, I don’t know what does!
And I don’t know how you equate the words that maybe came into Hebrew later than the Tanach with words that Ben-Yehuda made up.
Whenever words that came into the language even from other origins, these were Okayed by the Mishna, Gemmora, Rishonim, etc. to become part of LK. Some guy who in the last century made up words for his language Ivrit – no way do these words become part of Hebrew or Loshon Hakodesh.
“It seems to me that you want to harshly criticize, which is based on Sinat Chinam, and that is wrong. I’m just trying to dan l’chaf zechut.”
You seem to be ignorant of the Halacha. It is a Mitzva to hate Reshayim and the C.C. says it’s a Chiyuv to Dan Reshayim L’caf Chov! Ben-Yehuda falls into this category along with all his Zionist peers.May 31, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #878327
Health, I just looked it up and while sevral letters are similar there are many that are totally different – and the Bosnians, being Moslems, use the Arabic alphabet. Unfortunately, for some reason it does not copy but you can look it up again.
As for Yiddish the Wikipedia says:May 31, 2012 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #878328zahavasdadParticipant
I was at the Asifa and I was listening to the Yiddish speeches
I definately heard the words Internet and Filter
Since when was Internet and Filter YIDDISH words?, Someone made them up and added them to the language
Anytime there is a spoken language, words get added, words get removed, meaning of words change.
All Ben Yeduda did was try to get Hebrew somewhat up to date and be able to be spokenMay 31, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #878329
“The Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct. “
With accents, Ashkenazim very often mispronounce them. Pick up a Chumash and see where the accents are based on the Taamim. One on my Rebbis pointed out that misplacing the accent, like in the word viAhavTAH in k’riat shema, can change the meaning. Saying viaHAVtah changes the meaning and one may not be yotsai K”Sh (he was not sure though).
The “Sav” (Tav w/o a dagesh) comes from a different part of the mouth (palette) than the S,Z, and Sh sounds (teeth). See the Mishnat HaGR”A or Lishon Chayim. OTOH, I don’t think that it’s sound is a hard “T” like in modern Hebrew, but still the “T” sound is from the right part of the mouth.May 31, 2012 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #878330Josh31Participant
You are all arguing about people who are long dead. What we have now are Sephardic Charedim, Dati-im and a huge number of Jews in Israel who were raised with very little religion. The language needed to reach out to them is Hebrew, not Yiddish.May 31, 2012 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #878331tahiniMember
“So I think he made a language to mock LK. That’s why he decided to put the Sefardi pronunciation to it -to make fun of it (LK)”
Now we know that Jews should use the ashkenazi pronunication for Ivrit, must tell that to all my jerusalemite family. Forget Jerusalem the city of David and look forward to Vilna, Riga, Warsaw, Kiev, where yiddish was embraced and spoken so beautifully. Of course Yiddish is spoken by many Jews and quite right too, it is part of my heritage too, but I can sense a prejudice towards those whose kith and Kin do not hail from the lands of mama loshen.
Even that most extreme anti-zionist creature, the repugnant Meir Hirsh so recently featured on YWN praising our enemies spoke Ivrit with the correct modern Sefardi pronuciation. He actually spoke beautiful Ivrit but of course the content was grotesque and nauseating, well at least for some of us.May 31, 2012 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #878332
MDG: The Sephardic pronunciation has many errors in it. The closest to being correct, by far, is the Teimani pronunciation.June 1, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #878333
MDG: Dayag and Dayan come from the exact same root. In fact, most jobs can be described in the same way. Take a noun or a verb, put a Patach under the first letter and a Kamatz (with a Dagesh) in the second. This is common through Mishnaic Hebrew. All Ben Yegudah did was standardize that.
And R’ Schachter quotes a Maharil that we are not Mapkid on Mil’eil and Mil’rah even where it changes the meaning. I think, however, that this is a Limud Z’chus at best. I have long thought that someone who habitually messes up Mil’eils and Mil’ras is only Yotzei as a Loez and not as a Korei B’lashon Hakodesh.June 1, 2012 9:59 am at 9:59 am #878334
Avi K -“Health, I just looked it up and while sevral letters are similar there are many that are totally different – and the Bosnians, being Moslems, use the Arabic alphabet.”
More of the same as before. Can’t admit you made a mistake? Some letters are the same and even ones that are different are very similar. The Yiddish and German Alpha-Bets are not even close. I posted the Alpha-bets:
Cyrillic alphabet Latin alphabet IPA value
? ? A a /a/
? ? B b /b/
? ? V v /?/
? ? G g /?/
? ? D d /d/
? ? ? ? /d?/
? ? E e /?/
? ? Z z /z/
? ? I i /i/
? ? J j /j/
? ? K k /k/
? ? L l /l/
? ? Lj lj /?/
? ? M m /m/
? ? N n /n/
? ? Nj nj /?/
? ? O o /?/
? ? P p /p/
? ? R r /r/
? ? S s /s/
? ? T t /t/
? ? ? ? /t?/
? ? U u /u/
? ? F f /f/
? ? H h /x/
? ? C c /ts/
? ? ? ? /t?/
As far as the rest of your post -you finally admit that there are those that hold it’s (Yiddish) a separate language. It’s a Machlokes. So I can hold it’s a different language.June 1, 2012 10:03 am at 10:03 am #878335
Josh31 -“What we have now are Sephardic Charedim, Dati-im and a huge number of Jews in Israel who were raised with very little religion. The language needed to reach out to them is Hebrew, not Yiddish.”
You can reach out to them with Loshon Hakodesh, you don’t need the Treif language Ivrit.June 1, 2012 10:07 am at 10:07 am #878336
tahini -“He actually spoke beautiful Ivrit but of course the content was grotesque and nauseating, well at least for some of us.”
And he spoke Arabic – So What? Because M. Hirsch spoke Ivrit means it’s a kosher language?June 1, 2012 10:14 am at 10:14 am #878337
Sam -“All Ben Yegudah did was standardize that.”
And who is he to standarize it? This isn’t any language -it’s Loshon Hakodesh. You just can’t add words because it makes sense.
Holy people like the Mishna and Gemmora can add words, not some Zionist. This is why I said Ivrit is it’s own language. You are beginning to get my point.June 1, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #878338
“MDG: The Sephardic pronunciation has many errors in it. The closest to being correct, by far, is the Teimani pronunciation. “
Maskim 100% 🙂June 1, 2012 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #878339notwhouthinkiamMember
ppl chill out what does it bother you if someone talks a different langaugelet them talk the way they want dont let it bother you.June 1, 2012 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #878340
“ppl chill out what does it bother you if someone talks a different langaugelet them talk the way they want dont let it bother you. “
Some get the feeling that by speaking Yiddish they are doing things better than non-speakers, and therefore those that don’t speak it are lesser Jews. See above.June 1, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #878341
Health: You think when the Mishnah or Gemara uses Hebrew words that aren’t in Chumash that the Ba’alei Hamishnah or Gemara added them personally? It was just representative of the spoken language at the time. Ben Yehudah himself may not have been someone to standardize a language. But when people start speaking that way it’s what the language itself becomes.June 3, 2012 1:39 am at 1:39 am #878342
Health, just because a language is written in a different alphabet does not make it different. Western European languages were written in Gothic script until about 350 years ago. German continued to use it until aout 100 years ago. Are they now different languages? What about Judeo-Arabic, etc. which everybody agrees are dialects?
You can hold that Yiddish is a different language but I can hold that it’s a jargon. Go mekadesh a woman on condition that it’s a language and then you can bring me a pesak.June 3, 2012 1:59 am at 1:59 am #878343welldressed007Participant
my cleaning lady is born in the USA and speaks primarily Spanish. She respects her heritage, perhaps, and perhaps we should respect ours?June 3, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #878344welldressed007Participant
i learnt Yiddish, here in the USA and am not Chassidish.Another language never will hurt you.June 3, 2012 3:12 am at 3:12 am #878345mddMember
Welldressed007, My heritage is Jewish, not German.June 3, 2012 3:47 am at 3:47 am #878346
A Yid speaks Yiddish.June 3, 2012 4:07 am at 4:07 am #878347mddMember
Chulent, was Moshe Rabbeinu a Yid? What about Dovid haMelech?June 3, 2012 4:12 am at 4:12 am #878348
Chulent:- An Ivri speaks Ivrit. The Torah describes Yosef as “Na’ar Ivri” so I am much prouder to be an Ivri than a Yid.June 3, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #878349
Sam – The Taanim or Amorayim maybe didn’t make the words up, but their usage of them indicates acceptance into Hebrew/LK.
Who Okayed Ben-Yehuda’s words into LK?
Sorry; since nobody nowadays is capable of this – it remains a new language.June 3, 2012 5:30 am at 5:30 am #878350
Avi K -“You can hold that Yiddish is a different language but I can hold that it’s a jargon.”
I don’t care what you hold, but you don’t have any proof that I’m wrong. You yourself quoted a source saying it’s a different language. Some people will just argue for the fun of it.June 3, 2012 5:35 am at 5:35 am #878351
147 -“Chulent:- An Ivri speaks Ivrit.”
Wrong. An Ivri speaks Ivris. If you don’t speak Ivris (LK) or Yiddish -you aren’t speaking a Jewish language.
Ivrit is Not a Jewish language, just a language made up by some Zionist Kofer.June 3, 2012 7:16 am at 7:16 am #878352TheMusicManParticipant
How you people ramble on! Is it possible to derive any sane conclusion from this thread?
People tend to be biased against things. Clearly, some of us hate yiddish (a.k.a some german, some hebrew, some polish, and the word oy), some of us abhor modern hebrew, and someone out there may hate zulu.
Why don’t people complain “we should stop with chulent (no insult, @Chulent)” and instead eat chamin?
As I always say regarding politics, nowadays nobody really knows what’s going on.June 3, 2012 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #878353
Health: I would never Ta’ana that Ben Yehudah making up words makes them Lashon Hakodesh. I don’t even really hold that modern Hebrew is LK, but I think thinking that it does is a valid Shittah with what to rely on. My point was that if modern Hebrew became LK, it did so because it became common usage among a very large percentage of Jewish people (whether as a first language or a second), not because Ben Yehudah invented the words.June 3, 2012 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #878354
Heath:- This Zionist Kofer also is part of a Medinat Yisrael that has been a haven to have saved many Jewish lives, say Jewish people from Russia & Ethiopia who had no-where toe scape to, and B’H were able to seek refuge in Mediant Yisrael.
Therefore, you “Health” must go to the Kevorim” of these Zionists, and beg Mechilo for having had the audacity of calling true Ohavei Yisroel, a Kofer.June 3, 2012 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #878355ZeesKiteParticipant
.. And anyone talking bad about America must go to the kevarim of R’ Gershon (George) Washington, R’ Avraham Lincoln, R’ Binyamin Franklin, etc. America was a safe haven for Jews…June 3, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #878356
147: Why is being an Ohev Yisroel mutually exclusive with being an Apikores?June 3, 2012 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #878357
Sam2 -“Health: I would never Ta’ana that Ben Yehudah making up words makes them Lashon Hakodesh. I don’t even really hold that modern Hebrew is LK, but I think thinking that it does is a valid Shittah with what to rely on.”
I don’t think it’s a valid Shitta, but why do you?
“My point was that if modern Hebrew became LK, it did so because it became common usage among a very large percentage of Jewish people (whether as a first language or a second), not because Ben Yehudah invented the words.”
That’s exactly my point -usage of words can’t possibly enter these words into LK without these words being Okayed by s/o who knows whether they can be admitted to the language or not. I don’t think there is anyone alive nowadays that can do this. I doubt even in the last hundreds of years there were people who could do this. But maybe there were.
Let me explain you what I heard in a Shiur about LK. It isn’t like any other language. For something to exist in this world there has to be a Ruchnius counterpart in Shomayim. Eg. -Take a “table”. For us to have a “table” in this world there has to be a counterpart upstairs. What is this counterpart? The word “Shulchan” is the counterpart. So LK is the Metzious of things the way they really are in Shomayim. So if a table didn’t have the name “Shulchan” then there would be No “table” as we know it on this world. The LK word is the backbone of the object. So you just can’t add words to LK -you have to know what’s going on in Shomayim. People without Ruach Hakodesh can’t do this.
So my point is Ivrit is a made up language, it’s Not Hebrew/LK. Like “Telephone”, what is “telephone” in Ivrit? It’s “telephone” spelled with Hebrew letters. This can’t possibly make it into LK. The real Hebrew word for “telephone” -the only way to know this -is if you know why a telephone can exist in this world. If you know the Ruchnius counterpart to “telephone” then that’s its’ Hebrew word.
Sam -I only posted this to you because you are probably one of the few here that can understand it.June 3, 2012 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #878358
147 -“Heath:- This Zionist Kofer also is part of a Medinat Yisrael that has been a haven to have saved many Jewish lives, say Jewish people from Russia & Ethiopia who had no-where toe scape to, and B’H were able to seek refuge in Mediant Yisrael.
Therefore, you “Health” must go to the Kevorim” of these Zionists, and beg Mechilo for having had the audacity of calling true Ohavei Yisroel, a Kofer.”
If I go near their graves I might get smoke inhalation. Like the Gemmora says about Achar’s Kever.
Why don’t you pull out a Hebrew/English dictionary and look up the word Kofer? Or try a Jastrow. I really don’t think you know what the word means!June 3, 2012 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #878359
Health: That is an entirely valid Shittah. However, as I mentioned above, it is seemingly a Machlokes between the Nodah Bihudah and the Sefer Abudraham as to whether or not Lashon Hakodesh can change based on how people speak (and based on whether Davening is inherently Lashon Hakodesh etc.). You perfectly explained the Shittah that Halachic Lashon Hakodesh predates the world and has complete mystical meanings etc. However, there is an opposing Shittah that Lashon Hakodesh can change like any other language and that the Ikkar importance of Lashon Hakodesh is that it’s the language the Torah was given in and that K’lal Yisrael speaks. So according to this Shittah, I can hear the claim that modern Hebrew has the Halachic status of Lashon Hakodesh.June 3, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #878360ohr chodeshMember
Even according to the shitta that, theoretically, LH can add new words, I’m quite sure even that shitta would not allow that a heretic can be one that is qualified to add words to LH.June 4, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #878362
Ohr Chodesh: Thank you for ignoring the whole post where I say,
“I would never Ta’ana that Ben Yehudah making up words makes them Lashon Hakodesh. I don’t even really hold that modern Hebrew is LK, but I think thinking that it does is a valid Shittah with what to rely on. My point was that if modern Hebrew became LK, it did so because it became common usage among a very large percentage of Jewish people (whether as a first language or a second), not because Ben Yehudah invented the words.”June 4, 2012 4:47 am at 4:47 am #878363ohr chodeshMember
And my point was, exactly, that MH being LK is *not* a valid shitta. And for the reason I explained earlier, has no one to rely on.June 4, 2012 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #878365
You ignored the “common usage” part of that post.June 4, 2012 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #878366zahavasdadParticipant
You cannot have a language where words dont change
New Words are invented and older words go into dis-use
New Word SmartPhone
Dis-Use Word : Rotary
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