October 8, 2009 2:32 am at 2:32 am #590543pookieMember
Do you hold of it? And why?October 8, 2009 2:39 am at 2:39 am #761304
Also see this thread where it has been discussed at length (over multiple pages):October 8, 2009 2:47 am at 2:47 am #761305mazal77Participant
I live in the flatbush area and we don’t hold by it. Simply because of Ocean Parkway and the fact that so many cars pass that way.
Also, as a side thing, my husband learnt that you can not use an eruv unless you went(or your husband went) to shul friday night and heard that the eruv was up.October 8, 2009 2:57 am at 2:57 am #761306SJSinNYCMember
Yes because I asked a shailah when I moved there and was told its kosher to use.
When I got married, my husband and I discussed this particular issue. He grew up in Brooklyn and didn’t use it. After discussing it with our rabbonim, we decided that I would continue being able to use the eruv, and he would still not use it.October 8, 2009 3:02 am at 3:02 am #761307NY MomMember
Wow! YW is very courageous to allow this controversial topic through!
To answer the question, no we don’t rely on the eruv, because of R’ Moshe’s psak. But you should know there is more than one in Brooklyn, specifically in Boro Park and in Flatbush. (Could be others of which I’m not aware.)October 8, 2009 3:08 am at 3:08 am #761308
I have one on my cul-de-sac (dead-end street).
With regard to the Flatbush Eruv; ask your Rav because most people are not qualified to determine this controversial sh’aila d’oreisa on their own. The only way that one can use it is if you get the ok from your Rav.October 8, 2009 3:34 am at 3:34 am #761309
NO, it is ASSUR TO, it is a FACT , Rav Belsky, Rosh yeshiva yeshiva Torah vodaath, doesn’t go to boro park on shabbos even for a simcha because there is so much chillul shabbos, meaning people carry on shabbosOctober 8, 2009 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #761310
HIE. You cant just say that. Everyone must follow his or her posek on this issue.
mazal, you bring up an interesting point. You mean that every single week you must ask about the eruv?October 8, 2009 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #761311
If Rav Belsky is your Rav or Posek, then you must follow his advice, otherwise, ask your own Rav (A’sei L’CHA Rav).October 8, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #761312
mepal, no, your wrong. YOu are arguing with the GADOL HADOR IN AMERICA. If anyone in America can say he knows more in halacha than Rav Yisroel Belsky, SHAME ON YOUOctober 8, 2009 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #761313
The only certified eruv rav in the Five Boroughs is the Admou”r meCreedmoor (Weiss and Beck live in Monsey). While he does extend his welfare net over Brooklyn and therefore it is within the Creedmoorer Eruv, the areas he extends it to are addresses such as 11523 13th Avenue and 9987 Avenue M which exist only on the insurance and section 8 rolls. Therefore, the certified eruv rav eruv of Creedmoor does not extend to Brooklyn except to those properties listed on the Section 8 and insurance rolls but nowhere else.October 8, 2009 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #761314mybatMember
Rab Moshe said that we can’t use the eruv. Here where I live there is an eruv of about 6 miles, for ashkenazim only, sefardics can use it Al yedei goy only. We try to use it the least possible for chinuch.October 8, 2009 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #761315
Wow. Thanks for clarifying, kilobear.October 8, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #761316cantoresqMember
It’s not relevant to me as I don’t live in Brooklyn. But on the rare occasion I find myself in Flatbush on Shabbat, I don’t use the eruv since my rebbe, R. Shlomo Drillman z”l was steadfast in his opposition to it. Out of respect for him, I’d refrain from doing what I otherwise might do. But he died before the Boro Prak eruv was built, and I wouldn’t consider myself bound by his views of the Flatbush eruv when in Boro Park. After all I have no idea what he might have said about the Boro Park eruv. In Boro Park I guess I would do what my host does.October 8, 2009 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #761317
HIE, it is you who is wrong. I have to listen to my posek, and you must listen to yours. My posek MAY disagree with Rav Belsky, or with anyone else, for that matter. If Rav Belsky is not my posek, I need not follow his psak. I have to follow mine, and you have to follow yours. And I think this issue has been discussed in the past already. You have to open your mind a bit and realize that there are other Rabbanim and other ways of doing things other then the ‘Rav ____-(insert name of Rav) way.October 8, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #761318truthsharerMember
“If anyone in America can say he knows more in halacha than Rav Yisroel Belsky, SHAME ON YOU “
Do you really believe that? How did you determine it? did you give out tests, were they multiple choice? Were there adequate amounts of proctors available? Keep in mind the Admur M’Creedmore is known to cheat, so he most likely looked over to someone else’s Gadol Standings Test.
Also, was the test curved? Can we see the standings? If my rav scored a 70%, does the Gadol Ranking Committee recommend I seek another Rav? What are the rankings?
I would imagine under a 50% is a fail, 50-60% can be an occasional rav, 60-70% is a shul rav, 70-80% is a city posek, 80-90% is a posek with a metropolitan area jurisdiction and 90-100% would be gadol status. Does that make sense?October 8, 2009 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #761319
YOU contact your personal rov for personal matters but this is involving the tzibbur and Rav Belsky is the posek of our dor in america and No ONE that i know of knows more halacha then him.October 8, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #761320
>>my rebbe, R. Shlomo Drillman z”l was steadfast in his opposition to it.
what were your rebbe’s objections?October 8, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #761321
In the boston area, the statuses of the various Eruv’s are posted on the web before Shabbats and Yom Tovs.October 8, 2009 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #761322
also, there is a phone line with an answering machine that gives the latest status.October 8, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #761323smartcookieMember
MEPAL: you r %100 right and HIE shame on you.
I will not state wether I hold from the eruv or not but all I know is that I follow my rav.
We each have to listen to our own rav and it really doesn’t matter to hashem which one of us follows the BIGGEST godol hador.
My rav is the biggest godol in my eyes and rav belsky is biggest in ur eyes. He is a godol but if others don’t follow him, they don’t have to go by his rulings.October 8, 2009 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #761324
also, there is a phone line with an answering machine that gives the latest status.October 8, 2009 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #761325
HIE, you claim, YOU contact your personal rov for personal matters but this is involving the tzibbur and Rav Belsky is the posek of our dor in america and No ONE that i know of knows more halacha then him.
Is that really so? And who, may I ask, anointed him posek of our dor? You, by any chance?October 8, 2009 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #761326
HIE- Do you follow Rav Belsky’s kulos as well? Many don’t.October 8, 2009 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #761327
Oh, please. Let’s not play “my gadol is bigger than your gadol.” Such games aren’t productive and only encourage the other side to denigrate the other’s gadol.
FWIW, I don’t use the eruv. But I will not, under any circumstances, castigate those who do. They have upon whom to rely, as do I.
The WolfOctober 8, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #761328SJSinNYCMember
In order to use any eruv, it is mandatory to check that it is up and running. Most places that I know of have an eruv hotline to call to check on the status.
Generally, since eruvs are well kept, an alert is sent out (or announced in shul) that the eruv is down. This happened only one time when I was living in Brooklyn.
HIE, I think you should speak to Rav Belsky about your claim that he is the posek for every person in America. I wonder what his response would be.October 8, 2009 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #761329
R’ Moshe’s psak applies to the entire Brooklyn, including Boro Park. My Rebbe was vehemently opposed to it, and said that anyone ho argues on R’ Moshe regarding it has no business being a Rav.
That said, I do have to share a discussion I had with him, because R’ Hershel Shachter does say differently from R’ Moshe on a matter. He said the following:
Regarding the Brooklyn eruv, there are people who say R’ Moshe was wrong, and they disagree with his psak. With regard to R’ Shachter’s psak, he didn’t say that. He felt that the circumstances had changed, and that R’ Moshe’s psak didn’t apply anymore. He said that were the circumstances the same, he would definitely agree with R’ Moshe. That is permissible. I later heard from a friend of mine who is a close talmud of R’ Shachter that before R’ Shachter gave the psak, he spent 2 sleepless nights reviewing it, and he was literally shaking at the thought of issuing a psak that differed from what R” Moshe had said – and this even when he agreed with the psak, but felt the circumstances had changed!
I guess my point is that it really depends on the reasoning of the psak. If a Rav feels that times have changed, and the psak no longer applies, he can give a psak. I just don’t understand how a posek in NY can argue on R’ Moshe without having a comparable posek to base his psak on.October 8, 2009 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #761330smartcookieMember
HIE I mamish cannot believe your naiveness in this conversationOctober 8, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #761331
Yiftach b’doro k’Shmuel b’doro. You follow the Rabbonim of your time; they have equal weight in p’sak with those of the past.October 8, 2009 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #761332
cherrybim: True, but any Rav would take the psak of the past into account when making his psak. Someone who just disregards a past psak without a problem is not worthy of being a Rav.October 8, 2009 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #761333cantoresqMember
>>my rebbe, R. Shlomo Drillman z”l was steadfast in his opposition to it.
what were your rebbe’s objections?
He objected to the Flatbush vaad’s disregarding R. Moshe’s psak. It seems the Vaad Harabanim of Flatbush had agreed to let R. Moshe make the call. When his p’sak came down, the vaad ignored it and built the eruv anyway. R. Drillman told me he personally had his questions about the psak, and could clearly see a valid psak in favor of the eruv. (Parenthetically, he felt that many of R. Moshe’s psakim about eruvin did not make sense, and he (R. Drillman) was hardpressed to see the mekorot as R. Moshe did.) But once it was decided to be bound by a psak, you have to be bound by it.October 8, 2009 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #761334truthsharerMember
Not to get into particulars, but a rav will take into account past psakim, and if they feel it was issued in error, will take that into account as well.
Again, you follow your rav. If he says OK, then OK, if he says Not OK, then Not OK.
I think the whole “my rav’s way or the highway” is a terrible thing.October 8, 2009 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #761335
Someone who just disregards a past psak without a problem is not worthy of being a Rav.
Feh… all that boils down to is “we must obey the past.”
Is it possible that maybe he did regard R. Moshe’s p’sak and came to the conclusion that:
(a) Maybe R. Moshe’s ruling was based on incorrect facts
(b) Maybe conditions have changed since R. Moshe’s ruling
(c) Maybe others have put forth reasons to allow an eruv that R. Moshe did not consider.
Or perhaps there is some other reason. In short, just because someone disagrees with a rav’s p’sak doesn’t mean that he disregarded that rav.
The WolfOctober 8, 2009 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #761336
Unfortunately, “politics” does enter into what Rav Moshe actually said, and did he also give the group of Rabbonim who initially came to him for a Brooklyn eruv p’sak, a clearance to seek other opinions. They claim that he did, and there’s no reason to think that the Rabbonim were not being truthful, otherwise Rav Menashe Klein would not have given the ok for the Brooklyn Eruv.October 8, 2009 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #761337
Wolf, did you read my post? I said “without a problem.” Unfortunately, I’ve heard of Rabbonim that simply said, “I disagree with R’ Moshe, and I’m big enough to argue on him.”
When I was in college, sometimes I’d work through a math problem, and get a wrong answer. My professor would tell me the right answer. Did I tell him he was wrong? No. Why not? Because he knew much more than I did, so I had to figure out where I went wrong, not where he did.October 8, 2009 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #761338
Wolf, did you read my post? I said “without a problem.”
Yes, I read it… I just misinterpreted what you meant by it. My apologies.
The WolfOctober 8, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #761339
Feif Un – Apples and oranges.October 8, 2009 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #761340gourmetMember
Anyone know the deal with the Manhattan eruv? We recently spent Shabbos there with my aunt and uncle, and we didn’t rely on it because our Rav said not to. But my uncle got really upset with my husband wearing his tallis to shul (rather than carrying it in the bag) and went on a whole rant about how the eruv is 100% kosher. I had heard that Brooklyn had a contentious debate as well, though I’ve yet to spend a Shabbos there. In any event, I am quite close with my Manhattan aunt, uncle and cousins, and expect to continue spending Shabbos there from time to time. So I reiterate: does anyone know what’s up with Manhattan?October 8, 2009 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #761341enlightenedjewMember
HIS, you got issues.
I use the eruv in Boro Park, don’t use in Flatbush. I heard from a talmid muvhak of a major gadol (zt”l) about BP eruv that the BP was OK, but he didn’t want to go public with it b/c he didn’t want to stir machlokes.
I haven’t gotten a definitive answer on Flatbush, but I do think it a bit childish to accuse those who do use it (or BP) of chillul shabbos. There are very learned people who take both sides.
I do know that appearances and politics also seem to creep into this – someone I know asked a local rav and he said they can use the Flatbush eruv for their baby (carry/push baby) and baby things, but nothing else. Does that make sense, logically? Not really, in my mind.October 8, 2009 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #761342
If your Rav told you not to, it is a closed issue for you. There is no reason for you to solicit opinions on the Manhattan Eruv.October 9, 2009 12:10 am at 12:10 am #761344
Oy! 9987 Avenue M is Mea Sheorim Kigel and Kishke, where the kigel and kishke tastes like it is flown in every month from Mea Sheorim. Kasher lemafreya under the Kreedmoor-K and made only with kosher certified mold and mildew.October 9, 2009 12:48 am at 12:48 am #761345gourmetMember
Joseph: I’m not looking to change the psak I got. Our Rav says no, so it’s a no for us. I am still interested in knowing what the deal is in Manhattan for 2 reasons: 1. I want to know what (and who) my uncle is relying on (I don’t want to ask him because then he’ll feel like we’re questioning his level of observance) and 2. I am just interested in knowing; since it’s clearly a debate, I’d like to know what it’s about. Do you happen to know?October 9, 2009 2:08 am at 2:08 am #761346
gourmet: Nope, sorry, when you said you were close to your uncle, I thought you intimated you therefore wanted to smooth things with him by finding a heter. My misunderstanding.October 9, 2009 2:12 am at 2:12 am #761347
I AM SAYING THIS B’RABIM BECAUSE I KNOW IT IS TRUE. Anyone who uses The Flatbush or boro eruv is being MECHALEL SHABBOS for every second of it. I didn’t appoint Rav Belsky Gadol Hador. The Tzibbur did and 99.99% of the rabbanim in america DON”T know as much halacha as Rav Belsky. (and btw, rav Belsky usually goes lekula, and some are machmir, but when Rav Belsky says no YOU are playing with ISSUREI D”OIRAISA!!.October 9, 2009 2:22 am at 2:22 am #761348
Hashem Is Everywhere: What about the other .01% of Rabbonim?October 9, 2009 2:23 am at 2:23 am #761349
first name me one THEN we’ll talk.October 9, 2009 2:53 am at 2:53 am #761350
HIE: You said that they exist.October 9, 2009 3:15 am at 3:15 am #761351
yea’h but i don’t know of any?October 9, 2009 5:31 am at 5:31 am #761352October 9, 2009 6:25 am at 6:25 am #761353
Seriously, it is very simple. Follow your community standards, or ask a rov and do as he says. And don’t condemn others who follow their rabbonim. If someone asks you, tell him my rov X told me (to), (not to) use the eruv.
I once found mashke in a store that the most respected posek of my community in EY does not use or recommend (he happens to be Rav Landa) and therefore would not have been consumed by >75% of the mispalelim at the shul I would have brought it to. I explained why I refused to buy it and given my appearance the owner asked me if he should tell frum Yidden not to use it. I said, tell them Rav Landa (known to be the most machmir on food and drink and having posseled it because of rumors of contact with milk) does not accept it.
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