Eruv in Brooklyn
- This topic has 327 replies, 52 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 11 months ago by cherrybim.
October 21, 2009 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #761523
I have a difficult time believing that there can be ANY disagreement what R” Moshe Z’ls position is about this when R’ Dovid and R’ Reuvevn Shlita are alive, baruch hashem ad meah viesrim, to ask. Would anyone doubt their answer as not accurate (whatever that answer may be)? Would anyone accuse them of an agenda?October 21, 2009 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #761524
I apologize to all the readers for not spending more time on making my posts more readable. Is it possible to edit an existing post or do I need to repost everything?October 21, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #761525
jphone – I would love to hear what Rav Dovid shlita would say to some of my arguments. I would like to hear precise rebuttals, not just a general wave of the hand.October 21, 2009 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #761526YW Moderator-80Member
You can’t edit an existing post. There is no reason to repost, but if you can format the future posts that would be helpful. If you don’t know how, ‘i can only try’ is quite an expert in teaching the skills.October 21, 2009 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #761528
YW Moderator-80 – Thank You. I do know how, and I should have done so previously.October 21, 2009 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #761532
You might get a wave of the hand if all you will do is regurgitate 40 years of arguments that have been answered a million times.
Im sure you’ll have no problem walking into MTJ and getting a definitive answer regarding R’ Moshe psak.October 22, 2009 4:44 am at 4:44 am #761533
jphone – “Im sure you’ll have no problem walking into MTJ and getting a definitive answer regarding R’ Moshe psak.”
Don’t be so sure. If it was so easy to do, it would have been done already.
It’s at least comforting to note that both sides have qualified piskei halacha that are being relied upon. And hopefully, the machlocus is l’shem shamayim.October 22, 2009 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #761534October 22, 2009 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #761535
david1999. Your friends, I’m sure, are all tremendous geonim, poskim and lamdanim, not seen since the times of the Rambam, and I’m sure they can all run circles around R’ Dovid Shlita when it comes to hilchos eruvin. Therefore, on behalf of the entire tzibbur I humbly and respectfully ask that your friends publicly announce who they are, so that we can all benefit from their tremendous geonus and lamdus and have an open door for all shaylos we may have.October 22, 2009 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #761536
(Apparantly the moderators/censors didnt like what I wrote the 1st time around (you guys dont like sarcasm?). If at first you dont succeed, try and try again.)
Especially when it is directed against other posters.
I’m not sure if that is a mistake or not. Are you saying that the question you have are NEW (you write “not been around and never answered”), OR did you mean to write “have been around forever and have not been answered”?
“I have friends who have spoken to Rav Dovid shilta and he has not answered these arguments satisfactorily.”
They obviously satisfy R’ David.October 22, 2009 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #761537
It would not be in keeping with the tone we are trying to maintain however.October 22, 2009 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #761538
If you want to ask that question to a specific poster, then please rephrase it in a respectful mannerOctober 22, 2009 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #761539I can only tryMember
“Moreover, it would demonstrate how irrational those who oppose eruvin today are.”
???October 22, 2009 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #761540Feif UnParticipant
david1999: I’ve answered the question regarding the population a bunch of times. Read through the thread, you’ll see.
I’m not a Rav (far from it), but if you have the necessary amount of people, mechitzos don’t really matter, right?October 22, 2009 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #761541October 22, 2009 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #761542
Dear R’ Dovid
1: I am not an expert in hilchos Eruvin. I do not know what constitutes a halachic wall. Therefore I can not answer your question about Brooklyn and walls.
2: Whatever or wherever those halachic walls may be, R’ Dovid Feinstein does not believe they are valid, for whatever reason.
3: The populaton of Brooklyn, according to the US Census http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/36047.html was 2,556,598 in 2008 (I wouldnt be so quick to say “nowhere near 3 million”). What relevance the number 3,000,000 has to hilchos Eruvin, again, I dont know, apparantly you do. R’ Dovid Feinstein is obviously not bothered by this number as you are.
4: Someone copied and pasted all sorts of info from another site (I think it is still online here) that specifically addressed the questions you asked me. The answers meant nothing to me because the questions do not either. again, I do not know hilchos Eruvin.
5: Personally, I dont care “what is said” about anything. I only care about what my Rav says right now.
6: I am not trying to intimidate, impress or humor you with sarcasm. You can take what I said however you want.
7: I am NOT DEBATING YOU. Not in hilchos eruvin, not regarding the veracity of the things found in any sefer, not regarding the things said in the name of Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlita, not in the name of R” Moshe Z’l, nothing. Now that I wrote this, I realize that I am debating you in ONE thing. Your questions have been asked, someone posted answers to them, you just dont find them to be SATISFACTORY to your liking and the friends you quoted. I am NOT debating the merits of any answers.
8: If you believe that those who dont use the Eruv today are irrational, so be it.
EDITEDOctober 22, 2009 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #761543
You are incorrect. Mechitzos would classify an area as a reshus hayachid notwithstanding the fact that there is a rabbim traversing therein.October 22, 2009 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #761544
Dear Editor. I give up.
jphone’s original deleted post has been undeleted and can be found above:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/eruv-in-brooklyn/page/6#post-107081October 22, 2009 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #761545I can only tryMember
The ? was regarding the word usage.
I think you meant “innacurate”.October 22, 2009 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #761546
3) According to Rav Moshe the relevance of 3 million is that this is the required population for an area to be deemed as a reshus harabbim. 500,000 people is a very large proportion of 3 million.
7) First of all, they were only asked, at the most, 9 years ago and not as you claim over the past forty years. Second of all, it is not only that Rav Hirsch did not answer satisfactorily he simply missed many points. Third of all, Rav Hirsch admitted to a friend of mine that according to Rav Moshe the Brooklyn mechitzos are sufficient.
8) My point was that many of the arguments are irrational. Of course, if one followed his rav who does not allow carrying I would agree that is rational.October 22, 2009 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #761547October 22, 2009 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #761548
“Of course, if one followed his rav who does not allow carrying I would agree that is rational.”
Note: This is not directed at ANYONE specifically.
What is irrational are those who have no confidence in the psak of their Rav that they have to start debating it with those who disagree with the psak. Especially when they are not experts in the relevant halachos.October 22, 2009 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #761549
jphoneYour friends, I’m sure, are all tremendous geonim, poskim and lamdanim, not seen since the times of the Rambam, and I’m sure they can all run circles around R’ Dovid Shlita when it comes to hilchos eruvin. Therefore, on behalf of the entire tzibbur I humbly and respectfully ask that your friends publicly announce who they are, so that we can all benefit from their tremendous geonus and lamdus and have an open door for all shaylos we may have.October 23, 2009 4:04 am at 4:04 am #761550October 23, 2009 4:43 am at 4:43 am #761551
You appear to be saying that regarding this psak, R’ Dovid is not basing his psak on facts. What are the possibilities.
. Either he is being fed erroneous (by mistake) or false (on purpose) information that contradicts your “facts”.
. He has no other information available to him, but your facts, and he chooses to ignore them for whatever reason.October 23, 2009 5:23 am at 5:23 am #761552
No. Rav Dovid shlita wants to keep the status quo no matter what the facts are.October 23, 2009 5:43 am at 5:43 am #761553bein_hasdorimParticipant
cherrybim: just saw ur post. Sorry I didnt reply till now, i’ve been very busy.
when the Safek is a serious one, one should feel inclined to go l’chumra.
Not in general. It’s actually important not to be a big machmir.
Hashem Is Everywhere: You are wrong to call them mechlelei Shabbos!
They are not playing with anything, (those I referred to) and i’ts not your problem.
it’s their Poisek’s problem. (and don’t tell me kol yisroel Areivim etc.) That is not
a Tainah here. They have a halachic right to be soimech on their Rov.
(Their actual moreh hora’ah that is.)October 23, 2009 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #761554
When the anti-Eruv people put out a rebuttal brochure (and it was more of a “you bums” than a point by point rebuttal), there was a factually incorrect statement in there by R’ Feinstein. I do not know if he was fed it or was just mistaken.October 23, 2009 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #761555
“No. Rav Dovid shlita wants to keep the status quo no matter what the facts are.”
The way I understand this comment is as follows. Please correct me if this is not what you are saying.
Rav Davids psak is not based on any halacha, he is simply being stubborn and refuses to change the status quo, no matter what the facts are.October 23, 2009 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #761556October 23, 2009 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #761557October 23, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #761558
Correct.October 23, 2009 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #761559
I’m not sure what “Flatbush and its environs” is supposed to mean. But I did post a link to the US Census Beureau that states the estimated population of Kings County, NY (aka Brooklyn, NY) for 2005 was greater than 2.5 million people. Again, the implications of this number, or the area it represents is beyond me, and I do not wish to discuss its relevance. I am commenting specifically on the population of Brooklyn NY according to the US Census Bureau.
See the census numbers here http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/36047.htmlOctober 23, 2009 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #761560
jphone, Brooklyn is not the same as “Flatbush and its environs.”October 23, 2009 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #761561October 23, 2009 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #761562aryeh3Participant
Do you follow R’ Moshe on anything? Cholov Yisroel? Why do you criticize people who follow his rulings in general for not abandoning him regarding this eruv?October 23, 2009 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #761563October 23, 2009 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #761564aryeh3Participant
Why should I believe you that R’ Moshe relied on incorrect information?
And you did not answer my question: do you follow R’ Moshe on any halachic matter?October 23, 2009 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #761565
I’m not sure if he is being purposely ambiguous or not. I did not ask him, and quite frankly it doesnt matter to me one way or another.
I do believe that the following is certainly true “in order not to involve himself in the arguments”. He has his opinion, follows it, shares it with those who ask and is not concerned that there are those who disagree with him, for any reason.
As a general rule of thumb, I am automatically suspect of anyone who paskens a halacha, whether it is hilchos eruvin, shabbos, kashrus or in any other area and then feels the need to publish a kuntres and mail it to the neighborhood with justification for the psak. When I received the mailings both for and against the eruv last winter I put everything in shaimos (I suspect I could have put it in the trash to) and then signed up for all sorts of mass mailings to be sent to the return addresses on both mailings. You send me spam, I will arrange to have it sent back to you.October 23, 2009 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #761566
I live on the cul de sac (Dead End) street within the “Eruv” boundries. A few of the home owners use the Flatbush Eruv, other don’t. Because the area is enclosed on three sides, it was fairly easy to string a line from a home on side of the street to the other, and behold, we have an Eruv for the entire street.
Now, according to the “No Eruv in Flatbush/Brooklyn group”, is our Eruv muter if it was approved for meeting all other criteria for eruvin?
If the answer is yes, then why not make eruvin in Flatbush which would exclude the disputed areas?October 23, 2009 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #761567
aryeh3 – “do you follow R’ Moshe on any halachic matter?”
Incompetent, irrelevant, immaterial, and it’s no one’s business.October 23, 2009 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #761568
aryeh3: Because there is nowhere near a million people who come into Brooklyn daily and the population of Brooklyn is not three million and Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos.October 23, 2009 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #761569
jphone: It is interesting how you continuously debate my arguments but then turn around and declare that my rebuttals do not concern you.
You are mistaken. The fact that Rav Dovid felt a need to pen a letter suggesting that nothing changed and attempted to rebut the main argument that would support the eruv (according to his father) proves that he was concerned with what was said by those who disagree with him.
Regarding this particular issue the only way that the public (including the rabbanim) can become familiar with the matter is through education. Over the years there has been much dissemination of the anti-eruv opinion but little from the opposing side. These mailings were designed to rectify this matter. In any case, I am happy to see that you are consistent and put everything in shaimos.October 23, 2009 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #761570
cherrybim: It is unclear what Rav Moshe upheld regarding a cul de sac. I have heard arguments both ways. For whatever its worth, I believe that Rav Moshe would allow.
According to those opposing the eruv besides for cul de sacs there are no other streets that would be allowed according to Rav Moshe, hence there are no other streets to omit from the boundaries of the eruv.October 23, 2009 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #761571
Everyone Here Knows That an Eruv Shouldn’t Be Used So therefore I think this thread Should Be Officially Closed
EDITED to remove the bold and italics. The moderators panel will decide if and when a thread gets closed. if you choose to agree, fine, if not, oh well.October 23, 2009 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #761572smartcookieMember
HIE…no- I will continue using the eruv even when this thread is closed. As I said before…this thread will not change anyones opinions.I will continue to follow my rav forever….October 23, 2009 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #761573SJSinNYCMember
HIE, what you should have written was “Everyone should consult their own local orthodox Rabbi as to what to do.”October 23, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #761574
sjsinnyc, if you wish i’ll say that Everybody should consult with their own rav and not pasken from the CROctober 23, 2009 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #761575SJSinNYCMember
HIE, that’s a good statement. It gets my approval.October 23, 2009 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #761576
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