July 12, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #591947ef613Member
Does a person face a judgement for all excess money they spent- money that was not needed for them to serve Hashem ? For example : elaborate decorations at a wedding, huge mansion when it’s only an empty nest, fancy cars, fancy clothes?
I’m asking because a family memebr of mine posed this question to me and i’m curious to see how one woudl deal with this question.July 12, 2010 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #689825YW Moderator-80Member
Of course they will face judgment for this. We will all face judgment for all of our deeds, small and large.
Only Hashem knows their inner hearts, and only Hashem knows what the judgment will be, favorable or not.July 12, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #689826blinkyParticipant
I imagine a person will face judgement if he could have used his extra money for tzeddaka and instead used it on elaborate things. Also if his weddings, house, cars…caused ayin hara, chilul Hashem…that might also be wrong. But if not kal hakovod i guess.July 12, 2010 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #689827
Of course we face judgement. The question is whether it’s wrong to spend excess money(assuming that you have extra money). Does Hashem want us to spend on things that make us happy or we should give away every last penny for mitzvos?July 12, 2010 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #689828
Good afternoon!!!July 12, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #689829
This has already been discussed on another thread.
Look there instead of running people’s blood pressure up.
ThanksJuly 13, 2010 3:06 am at 3:06 am #689830
After giving maasor and spending only what one really has, not borrowing from credit cards or gemachin (one is not allowed to borrow what they know they cannot repay) then if they have the money and there are not part of a community which took upon itself tekonos regarding spending, there’s no reason that they cannot spend “excessively” for a simchah.
However brocha is only in what is hidden and tznius. Excessively lavish simchos are not tznius.
And we only take with us after 120 years the schusim of our mitzvos so it’s rather foolish to spend money on chachtkes or to gefel others.July 13, 2010 8:37 am at 8:37 am #689832July 13, 2010 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #689833potsandpansMember
while i cannot recall the exact name of this Tana( he had a unique name that had the word “tzizis” in it)….this Tana was known to be very very wealthy and says in gemara that when he walked his tzizis never touched the floor i believe, because he had a red carpet under him at all times…and yet he said that he never used anything in life other than for avodas Hashem….
This teaches us, you can have a beautiful house, a beautiful car, and beautiful event etc as long of course you don’t cause harm to others by it ( ie getting in debt for it) if you will use it for avodas Hashem…
I know many pp with beautiful homes who let meshulchim stay there…who hold parlor meetings at their homes etc
I know pp who have beautiful cars and we’ll use them to drive around rabbonim or meshulachim…
and a beautiful event can also do much for others: if its a fundraiser, pp like to give more if its in a fancier place…
A person may not give more than a 1/5 of his $ for maaser…
now the rest, Hashem has given him the right to enojoy the $, just as Hashem gives us things ( ie. food and clothes) to enjoy in this world.
Possibly Hashem wants to test that person, that despite a lavish life, if he can remember to give tzedaka.
There is no halacha whatsoever for a rich man to give all his $ away for tzedaka or to live as a poor man. I am NOT suggesting that this person flaunt or create jealousy with his $, but if Hashem bestowed on him wealth, he may enjoy it in proper contex and yes that could mean making a nicer wedding for his children!July 13, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #689834potsandpansMember
oh, I found the exact name: ben tzitzit ha’ksat
one view also said that whenever he walked, carpets with fringes( tzizis) were laid before him and after that poor men came to collect them.
So this tana definitely had a lavish life style but he gave tzedaka and made sure that any enjoyment he had was leshem shamayim!July 13, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #689835
You completely missed my point.
My point was that just as I don’t have to morally justify my decision of whether to eat tuna fish or egg salad as long as all other halachic matters are attended to (kashrus, brachos, etc.), why should *how* someone spends their money (after all halachic [and perhaps extra-halachic] obligations are taken care of — and assuming they aren’t doing any aveiros with the money) be a matter of moral justification?
The WolfJuly 13, 2010 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #689836Derech HaMelechMember
Along those lines don’t they say about Rebbi that he had qishu’im on his table all year and that his stable keeper was richer than the king of Persia. But when he died his hands stayed open to be meramez that he didn’t have any han’ah from this world. (I might be getting the story wrong).
Anyway see Noam Elimelech. Most of what he speaks about is two levels of tzidkus- the higher being a tzadik who doesn’t fast all the time but rather always eats l’shem shamayim.July 14, 2010 12:15 am at 12:15 am #689839kapustaParticipant
If I can veer off the topic slightly, (and this is a sincere question) who determines what lavish is? Does lavish mean having a car at all, having an old car which breaks down more often than it runs but its still a car, leasing a (newish) car, or owning a (newish) car? Does it mean going to the mountains for the summer, going to Eretz Yisrael once a year, or going to Europe once a year? Does it mean going out to eat (nice restaurant) once a week, or going out for pizza once a week?July 14, 2010 3:54 am at 3:54 am #689840oomisParticipant
Kapusta, I guess all is relative. I personally believe that buying a new car every year is unnecessarily lavish; maybe going to the bungalows for the summer (if you really cannot afford necessities and to pay bills) is somewhat of an extravagance; Going to E”Y every year is a nice thing to do, but yeas, I feel it is a luxury (I would NEVER go to Europe once a year, if it came down to that or E”Y); every husband should take his wife out for a date night once a week, IMO, even if it IS just for pizza, but a nice dinner is especially nice to show her appreciation. these are my random thoughts. And no matter WHAT I believe, it is not my business if someone else wants to do those things and can afford it, not on someone else’s cheshbon, of course.July 16, 2010 2:03 am at 2:03 am #689841
I am terribly distraught over the tragic loss of Moshe Menorah and family members.
It is no secret that Moshe gave tzeddakah unselfishly with no agendas. He did not live an extravagant life. He flew a plane as a convenient mode of transportation, no different than a fellow reader driving a Chevrolet. He was a great man.
Sadly, some of the Yeshiva World accountants would say that a personal plane is lavish and excessive. All you people do is create din against those who do things above your expectations. How many more times will there be titles about Mansions, Excessive Spending, Snobby Billionaires? Realize the damage you might cause.July 16, 2010 2:12 am at 2:12 am #689842missmeMember
I never heard anyone (here or elsewhere) say having a plane for a business need, as Mr. Menorah had, is excessive by any stretch. I don’t see how you can compare one (a business use) to another (a flashy mansion). The Rabbonim have long forewarned us against a flashy lifestyle.July 16, 2010 2:17 am at 2:17 am #689843
I don’t see how you can compare one (a business use) to another (a flashy mansion). The Rabbonim have long forewarned us against a flashy lifestyle.
I may be too ignorant to understand this properly, but I believe it *could* be argued that he could have flown on a regular plane rather than having a private jet.
(Note: I’m not arguing that he shouldn’t have had a private jet. I don’t know what his circumstances were and, even if I did, I’m probably too stupid to know if it was justified or not. I’m merely making the point that it *could* be argued).July 16, 2010 2:20 am at 2:20 am #689844
Nobody was writing against snobby billionaires and their airplanes.
But okay artchill, you don’t want any discussions about mansions and excessive spending. So tell me, how was your day today?July 16, 2010 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #689845
One of the things I learned in life is that. Each person spends $ on things that are important to him.
Every person believes that other things are necessities.July 16, 2010 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #689846tzippiMember
There’s a famous story told about a rebbe who came to collect from a gevir and found him eating dark bread and herring. He told the gevir off. As much as the gevir wanted to stay humble and reduce his gashmiyus, the rebbe said that if this is what he’s used to eating, when a truly hungry man would come, he would give him that, or even less. Better that he eat good meats and foods according to his means, so he would be more generous to others.July 16, 2010 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #689847myfriendMember
There’s a far cry between a gvir eating dark bread and having the most ostentatious house in the neighborhood.July 16, 2010 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #689848
Someone has to have the most ostentatious house in the neighborhood.July 16, 2010 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #689849
Technically. But I think we all understand what he means is overly ostentatious, with a standout house that says stare at me from the outside. (The wealth displayed inside the house is not an issue.)July 16, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #689850
“(The wealth displayed inside the house is not an issue.)”
Why not?July 16, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #689851
Someone has to have the most ostentatious house in the neighborhood.
Not if you regulate housing so that all houses are exactly alike.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #689852
Because inside the home is concealed by privacy. Isn’t there a Gemorah praising someone (I forget who) who had a tremendously “upscale” inside of his house, while living in a “poor neighborhood” with the outside in shambles?July 16, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #689853
But being that the question is excessive spending, who cares if it is visible or not?July 16, 2010 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #689854
I was touching on a tangentially related issue.July 16, 2010 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #689855
But being that the question is excessive spending, who cares if it is visible or not?
Tznius means hidden, besheiden. A Yid has to live btznius in every aspect of his life.July 16, 2010 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #689856
Mrs. Clearheaded & Mr. Shmart:
I agree with both of you. The Tznius aspect is only if it is external, and it is not Tzanua to have an overly showy home (I think I already said so in another thread).
It is still “excessive spending”, if that is a problem (and I have no idea whay it would be a problem).July 16, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #689857
Wolf, there are ways to make your house the most ostentacious even if the houses all look exactly alike. Unless you stipulate that all landscaping and exterior decorations have to be 100% the same.
Then people will claim which number is better LOL.July 16, 2010 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #689858
Yes, I know. My reply was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #689859
Excessive spending is really very individual.
Some people go into debt with their excessive spending habits.
Some people are so into shopping, their life revolves only around that and everything else becomes trivial.
But we can’t judge excessive spending in general because what one considers a necessity s/o else can consider that a luxury.
The bottom line is that someone shouldn’t spend more than there means, be so into attaining more materialism that they forget about their spirituality, or make untzniusdige simchos or build untziunsdige houses.July 16, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #689860
If you want to feel like what you spend is excessive, there is a blog called pennilessparenting – its a woman in Israel who spends really, really little to survive. I find it fascinating.
Makes me feel really spoiled.July 16, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #689861
FWIW, I personally can’t stand ostentatiousness (is that even a word?).
Many years ago, I was lucky enough to win a Megillas Esther at a Chinese Auction. Along with the megillah, I won a silver case. However, the case was big, showy, with bells that jingled whenever you moved it and with ornate work on it. For me, it was just too much. It was beautiful, mind you — but just way too much for me. For years, I carried my megillah around in a zip-lock bag rather than use that thing. Eventually, my mother-in-law was kind enough to buy me a nice, simple, wooden megillah case as a birthday present, which I still use to this day. The ostentatious thing sits on top of my breakfront, empty and unused.
Perhaps that’s the same reason that I don’t have a fancy, silver menorah (I still use the same one my mother bought for me when I was about fourteen) and I don’t use a fancy silver matzo holder, esrog box, etc. Yes, some of you will say I don’t show any chashivus to mitzvos — and you’re entitled to your opinions — but I’m not changing the way I am at this point in my life.
If someone else wants to be ostentatious, I don’t begrudge them — I firmly believe that as long as it’s within halacha a person is entitled to spend their money as they see fit — bit it’s just not for me.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #689862
Why not sell the megillah case? Or Donate it to a shul?July 16, 2010 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #689863
Why not sell the megillah case? Or Donate it to a shul?
Good question. I don’t know. But that wasn’t the point of the post.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #689864
Wolf, at least your wife is spared from polishing silver. It’s one of my least favorite household tasks. (Actually which household chore do I like to do?)July 16, 2010 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #689865
clearheaded: Have you tried the gloves?July 16, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #689866
gavra, I have cotton gloves that I put polish on and then smear the polish on the silver.
Which gloves are you refering to?
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