Facebook Is To Blame For Rising Orthodox Jewish Divorce Rate?

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  • #935204

    yytz
    Participant

    In case anyone’s interested, here are the “10 plagues of Facebook” by Rav Shlom Aviner:

    3. Advertisements. Facebook is sponsored by advertisements, some of which are disgusting, full of offensive language and sexual immodesty, provoking people to commit acts that are base, coarse and forbidden.

    4. Crime. Since the information is out in the public domain and available to all, all sorts of unsavory people take advantage of it for evil: identity theft for the sake of extorting monetary contributions; for convincing people to come to rendezvous where they will be robbed; as well as the use made by various types of sexual perverts; for sending junk mail, and for racist groups that encourage hatred.

    5. Addiction. Facebook is the fifth biggest cause of addition in the world. 400 million people in the world are addicted to it, and 2.5 million in Israel use Facebook. 75% of youth are regular users. Facebook addicts can spend 4-5 hours a day on it.

    6. Loss of time. Time is one of the most precious things in life. A person thinks he is

    going into Facebook for a moment, and he may be stuck there for long hours.

    8. Exhibitionism. A person develops a longing to be seen by others, to share glances and find favor in the eyes of imaginary, virtual friends. He constantly updates his personal profile in order to increase his popularity. He strikes an alluring pose and has his picture taken in order to draw attention to himself. He becomes enslaved to finding favor in the eyes of others, and to being seen by them.

    #935205

    chalilavchas
    Member

    yytz,

    And I’m not sure it’s really true that divorce is increasing among frum Jews.

    Depends on the age group!

    Among my 100 or so high school classmates and their siblings, (in their 40’s, 50’s and 60’s) there B”H have been hardly any divorces in their 20-30 years of marriage.

    The next generation- their kids (in their 20’s), forget about it, there are many unfortunately! Its scary!

    #935206

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I wasn’t describing my parents marriage. But my parents had friends that stayed together for the kids. A divorce was considered a shanda. It’s not that way now, particularly in the shidduch generation. There are a number of families in my town whose kids were married at 19 divorced by 21. Among the reasons: immaturity, misrepresentation during the shidduch process. Also, girls come back Israel where seminaries fill their heads with idealized ideas of marriage but do not equip them with the knowledge that there will bumps in the road and the tools to enable them to deal with issues without going right to divorce

    #935207

    mewho
    Participant

    it all depends on how you use facebook. i love seeing pictures of my relatives in their purim costumes and my friends as well. i like touching base with former classmates of mine for years ago.

    if there is a community event happening people post it on facebook as well.

    as i said, it all depends what YOU use it for. it doesnt cause divorce unless YOU make it so.

    #935210

    haifagirl
    Participant

    This is slightly off-topic. Sorry.

    Those of you who don’t subscribe to the “Daily Dose of Kindness” may have missed this story, so I wanted to share it.

    A woman I met through mutual friends and interests on Facebook somehow started explaining how her friend couldn’t afford new glasses, and was wandering through her life not seeing properly.

    The two of us pooled resources to give this woman money for an eye check up and new glasses.

    I love the feeling that somewhere, there is a woman who can see because I was able to help.

    #935211

    Health
    Participant

    yytz -You made some very good points. The Rabbonim are very much against the internet and the leading problems with the Net are sites like Facebook. Even if you are only doing Kosher things there -you shouldn’t be there. I once heard that Rebbitzen Jungreis said bringing a TV in your home is like bringing the Goyim and their Haskofos into your home. FB is by far – worse than general internet and TV. It’s not just bringing Goyim into your home -it’s going to their worse hangouts in the city and mingling with them -Disgusting.

    #935212

    jbaldy22
    Member

    My wife once helped make someones wedding through facebook. There is a large amount of chesed that goes on over there and i dont view it as something inherently good or bad. I still have not really heard any cogent arguments to the contrary. Most people who bash facebook don’t seem to really understand how it works which tends to negate large portions of their argument.

    #935213

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“and i dont view it as something inherently good or bad. I still have not really heard any cogent arguments to the contrary.”

    It isn’t inherently bad -it’s the Seviva. Take a hall in the middle of the city -it’s just a hall. Add a rock band & add Goyim dancing not wearing Tzinus clothing and I won’t mention what else. Now a Jew doesn’t belong there, even if they are doing something Kosher like a Shidduch Date, because it’s a bad Seviva.

    Do you know any really Frum guys who would take dates to a disco place? I don’t think so. Facebook is the same thing, just in the privacy of your home.

    #935214

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Most people who bash facebook don’t seem to really understand how it works which tends to negate large portions of their argument.

    You don’t need to know how a nuclear bomb works to know that it’s a very dangerous thing. Nuclear bombs aren’t inherently good or bad either, but you wouldn’t want most people having access to them.

    #935215

    haifagirl
    Participant

    It isn’t inherently bad -it’s the Seviva. Take a hall in the middle of the city -it’s just a hall. Add a rock band & add Goyim dancing not wearing Tzinus clothing and I won’t mention what else. Now a Jew doesn’t belong there, even if they are doing something Kosher like a Shidduch Date, because it’s a bad Seviva.

    Do you know any really Frum guys who would take dates to a disco place? I don’t think so. Facebook is the same thing, just in the privacy of your home.

    Not a good analogy. In the same building as that hall you mentioned, there is another hall. That hall is totally kosher and totally tznius. Only invited guests are allowed in.

    Facebook is the building. You choose which hall you enter.

    #935216

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Haifagirl, if the same building had a wedding hall and an establishment for pritzus, do you think the “charedi oilam” would patronize the hall?

    #935217

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, but what if each person has their own entrance, and the entrances are not near one another, so nobody knows what is going on in the other halls. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/popa-figures-out-more-stuff

    #935218

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @DY and @ health the argument you are making is no different than the argument many have made against the internet in the first place – if you choose not to have the internet kol hakavod. But facebook is just like the internet in that regard – it isnt for everyone but if used with the proper gedarim it can be used for great things. My point was singling out facebook and making hyperbolic arguements dont help anyone – ie facebook is like a disco or facebook is a primary cause of divorce. In general those type of arguments tend to make the people who make them look unintelligent and dont have a very high likelihood of convincing anyone.

    #935219

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the argument you are making is no different than the argument many have made against the internet in the first place

    I agree. Therefore, ein kan makom l’haarich.

    #935220

    The little I know
    Participant

    I found the subject of this thread rather amusing. It’s the old line that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. The gun has many beneficial uses, and I bet so does facebook. I know that computers do. But, as with much else in life, there are risks. So the uses of these things must always be with caution, safeguards, and limitations. Those unable to control when they will use these things, or how much, or what they may do with them should restrict themselves. Think of it as an allergy. Someone allergic to peanuts must refrain completely because of the risks, while someone else can eat as much as he/she wants. With proper guidelines, internet can be used properly, safely, and to the benefit of all. Some just cannot manage to stay within kosher limits. They either refrain, establish boundaries, or they risk falling into some serious traps. Facebook is not the problem. It’s misuse can be seriously problematic.

    I do not use Facebook or any other social network.

    #935221

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I don’t know if Facebook causes divorce, but it sure seems to breed narcissism. Why else would people post what they had for lunch for the edification of their hundreds of so-called friends?

    I once had a student who had over 1000 Facebook friends. I thought that was pretty amazing until I found out he was dealing drugs. Probably many were business contacts (and he hadn’t made it to LinkedIn yet).

    #935222

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“@DY and @ health the argument you are making is no different than the argument many have made against the internet in the first place – if you choose not to have the internet kol hakavod. But facebook is just like the internet in that regard – it isnt for everyone but if used with the proper gedarim it can be used for great things. My point was singling out facebook and making hyperbolic arguements dont help anyone – ie facebook is like a disco or facebook is a primary cause of divorce. In general those type of arguments tend to make the people who make them look unintelligent and dont have a very high likelihood of convincing anyone.”

    First of all -I’m not interested in convicing anyone.

    Second of all, IMHO FB is worse than the net. Yes you can be in a disco doing Kosher things like a Shidduch date, but the place affects you. You can be on FB doing Kosher things, but the place can affect you easier than the Net. On the Net you have to go to bad places -they almost are never coming to you. On FB the way I understand it is anybody can come to you. It’s much more of a harder Nisayon.

    #935223

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A recently married friend of mine opened a Facebook account, and received friend requests from single girls he had gone out with.

    He closed the account.

    #935224

    jbaldy22
    Member

    This is what i meant by proper gedarim. You are able to deny friend requests without the other person knowing (just press ignore). A general rule of thumb is to not allow members of the opposite gender (outside of your spouse) to be friends with you. If you stick to that you are fine. In addition my wife has access to my facebook account and can see it when ever she wants to.

    @health I dont really understand your going to facebook affecting you thing or people coming to you thing is – I have had facebook for 6 years and have never had that experience. There are privacy settings on facebook which can make you unsearchable if thats what u want. I think you might be confusing facebook with myspace which had some of those issues?

    Finally saying facebook is like a disco is sophistry (like many other internet related mesholim). There is nothing inherently wrong with facebook.

    #935225

    haifagirl
    Participant

    On FB the way I understand it is anybody can come to you. It’s much more of a harder Nisayon.

    You understand it incorrectly.

    #935226

    I love facebook and there is absolutly nothing wrong with it. and to all you ludicrous people, first find out what facebook really is, then you can rip on it.

    #935227

    and of course not anyone can come to you, you really think facebook is so popular because they are idiots and let anyone come up?

    #935228

    yichusdik
    Participant

    In the Megila we just read, Mordechai tells Esther that if she doesn’t step up and seek an audience with Achashverosh, salvation of the Jewish people will come from somewhere else.

    I think that the corrolary is also true. If a person with taivos or character flaws uses facebook, they will possibly, even likely exploit it for aveiros, and that may lead to divorce. But truly, if facebook didn’t exist, the taivos and the flaws still would, and the person would use another avenue to transgress.

    #935229

    golfer
    Participant

    Yehudahy, please enlighten- wouldn’t that be more typical on Twitter- someone letting everybody know what he had for lunch?

    And Daas Y, good for your married friend, I suppose, but couldn’t he just have ignored them?

    #935230

    squeak
    Participant

    No, if facebook causes divorces then he could not have ignored them because it wouldn’t help.

    #935231

    Dovnyc
    Member

    My dear sweet brothers, facebook to your marriage is like what TV is to your yiddishkeit. You could theoretically have a TV and use it responsibly, only watching PBS and National Geographic channels. But we all know that once the TV is in your home it will likely be used to view items that are incompatible with ones yiddishkeit. Same with facebook. Once its there, all the problems associated with it, it becomes so much easier to cheat where you wouldn’t have if the taaivos were not in front of you staring you in the face.

    #935232

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Golfer, sure, but I think once he realized how Facebook is commonly used, he wanted no part of it.

    #935233

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @dovnyc I was just waiting for the tv=facebook=internet argument. Same sophistry. See my comments above.

    #935234

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“@Health I dont really understand your going to facebook affecting you thing or people coming to you thing is – I have had facebook for 6 years and have never had that experience. There are privacy settings on facebook which can make you unsearchable if thats what u want. I think you might be confusing facebook with myspace which had some of those issues?

    Finally saying facebook is like a disco is sophistry (like many other internet related mesholim). There is nothing inherently wrong with facebook.”

    Can I ask you a question? You seem to be in some sort of denial, but how could you deny the fact that FB is even worse than the Net after reading DY’s post about his friend? Does than even happen on the Net unless you go to a social site?

    This is why My Moshol is right on target. You can be in the worse place in city and a Disco was just an example, but there are worse places. Is it alright to be there even if you’re Not doing anything wrong? Just think about it for a second before you respond!

    #935235

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health I gather from your response that you have never been on facebook. There is a severe lack of understanding on your part of how facebook’s system works. In addition there is no fear as there is with the rest of the internet of seeing inappropriate pictures or going on inappropriate sites as you have the ability to block ads and to cherrypick your friends. DY quotes an isolated case which again I see no problem with as you are perfectly capable of denying friend requests. Most people who are on facebook do not have those experiences and I do not find that my friends have masses of single girls as their friends. If you make yourself unsearchable and dont friend members of the opposite gender (which is what i meant by proper gedarim) I would love for you to explain to me what is wrong with it. I can list to you numerous things that are right with it and acts of chesed and support which happened there that would not be possible without social media.

    #935236

    a mamin
    Participant

    jbaldy22: For every 1 good thing that comes out of Facebook there are at least 10 BAD things. Speak with Rabbi Wallerstein, speak to other Rabbonim that are involved in the Klal, don’t take my word for it!Why are you so in denial?

    #935237

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“If you make yourself unsearchable and dont friend members of the opposite gender (which is what i meant by proper gedarim) I would love for you to explain to me what is wrong with it.”

    Well that’s only if you know people on it already, but for people to know the avg. guy is on it – is to make yourself searchable.

    “I can list to you numerous things that are right with it and acts of chesed and support which happened there that would not be possible without social media.”

    Yes, you could make Gedarim, but that’s not how FB is supposed to work. It’s supposed to work to pick up more friends. Yes, it can be done only Kosher, but the Moshol still stands – which you didn’t answer. From previous -“You can be in the worse place in city and a Disco was just an example, but there are worse places. Is it alright to be there even if you’re Not doing anything wrong?”

    #935238

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health and now you prove my point. the point of facebook is to keep in touch with friends not pick up friends. that is how it is designed. the way most people know you are on it is if you are friends with their friends – and you still have the option to reject them. again you are betraying your lack of knowledge of how facebook works and seem to be confusing it (again) with myspace which it is not.

    #935239

    just my hapence
    Participant

    “jbaldy22: For every 1 good thing that comes out of Facebook there are at least 10 BAD things. Speak with Rabbi Wallerstein, speak to other Rabbonim that are involved in the Klal, don’t take my word for it!Why are you so in denial?

    POSTED 21 MINUTES AGO #”

    Debating trick No. 47 – Denial: Make a claim without providing evidence. When challenged, simply accuse your opponent of being in denial.

    Debating trick No. 3 – The Appeal to Authority: “I don’t have evidence, but they do – ask them…”

    #935240

    a mamin
    Participant

    JUST MY HAPPENCE: I’m not the one in denial. You are! You are actually denying among others that Face Book is a terribly damaging site. I don’t have to prove it!

    #935241

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @a mamin You do realize that you just did the exact same thing just my hapence said you did for the second time.

    Also as far as I know believing that facebook is a bad website is not included in the yud gimul ekarim the last time I checked.

    #935243

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    JUST MY HAPPENCE: I’m not the one in denial. You are! You are actually denying among others that Face Book is a terribly damaging site. I don’t have to prove it!

    Actually, since you’re the one making the claim, the burden of proof *is* on you.

    The Wolf

    #935244

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I remember one time driving somewhere with a friend of mine. Taking the highway would have been out of the way. We ended up going through several neighborhoods. My friend was terrified. She thought we were going through the worst areas of the city.

    The point is, we weren’t. I was familiar with those neighborhoods, so I knew there was nothing wrong with them and we were perfectly safe. She, however, didn’t know the neighborhoods. That’s why she was scared.

    “You can be in the worse place in city and a Disco was just an example, but there are worse places. Is it alright to be there even if you’re Not doing anything wrong?”

    Just because you declare someplace to be “the worse [sic] place in city [sic],” doesn’t make it so.

    #935246

    Health
    Participant

    haifagirl – Now that I brought proof – do you or anyone have any proof how good it is?!?!?

    #935247

    haifagirl
    Participant

    haifagirl – Now that I brought proof – do you or anyone have any proof how good it is?!?!?

    I just looked back through all your posts. Perhaps I missed one, but I didn’t see any proof. Could you please re-post it?

    #935248

    Health
    Participant

    Mods – Why was my proof deleted? I quoted from a professional from the American Psychological society?

    for use of the word pathetic.

    #935249

    Health
    Participant

    Mods -Ok, thanks for telling me.

    #935250

    haifagirl
    Participant

    do you or anyone have any proof how good it is?!?!?

    Shortly after I started using Facebook I looked up some relatives, found them, and “friended” them. Most of these people I hadn’t seen nor talked to in many, many years.

    I had an aunt and uncle to whom I was very close. When I was a child and my father was sick, they were like a second set of parents to me.

    When they became very sick and passed away, the only one who kept me informed was one of their grandsons with whom I had started corresponding on Facebook. Prior to that he and I hadn’t spoken in probably 20 years.

    He and I have become quite close and he is even coming to EY to visit in a few months. This never would have happened without Facebook.

    Maybe that isn’t proof, but to me it’s a good enough reason to stay on Facebook.

    If my rabbi would tell me to stop using it, I probably would. But he would have to stop using it first!

    #935251

    Health
    Participant

    haifagirl -“I just looked back through all your posts. Perhaps I missed one, but I didn’t see any proof. Could you please re-post it?”

    Here it is again. From a top Mental Health professional. He found more bad than good in his study. Even though the study was with Young Adults I think it could apply to e/o. It’s Not my job to convince anyone Not to use it, but how about trying to look at this issue from a different perspective? Here it is for the second time:

    “While social networking site Facebook was created to help people connect with their friends, increasing research in the effect of social media on human interaction is painting a different picture — one that features the development of antisocial behavior, narcissism and a slew of other character flaws and negative by-products.

    Overdosing on Facebook may lead to the development of such psychological disorders in teens, according to a recent study conducted by Dr. Larry Rosen, a professor of psychology at California State University.

    In a presentation entitled “Poke Me: How Social Networks Can Both Help and Harm Our Kids” at the 119th Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association, Rosen presented his findings based on a number of computer-based surveys distributed to 1,000 urban adolescents and his 15-minute observations of 300 teens in the act of studying.

    Some of the negative side effects of Facebook use for teens that Rosen cited included:

    development of narcissism in teens who often use Facebook

    presence of other psychological disorders, including antisocial behaviors, mania and aggressive tendencies, in teens who have a strong Facebook presence

    increased absence from school and likelihood of developing stomach aches, sleeping problems, anxiety and depression, in teens who “overdose” in technology on a daily basis, including Facebook and video games

    lower grades for middle school, high school and college students who checked Facebook at least once during a 15-minute study period

    lower reading retention rates for students who most frequently had Facebook open on their computers during the 15-minute study period

    Not all findings were negative, however — one of the more interesting points from Rosen’s research was the development of “virtual empathy.”

    Generally, we think of empathy as an in-person activity, where hugs, facial expressions and kind words help improve a loved one’s mood. Rosen says that teens are developing the ability to show virtual empathy for distressed Facebook friends and that the empathy is actually well-received by friends, positively influencing their mood.

    This virtual empathy, he says, can even spill over into the real world, teaching teens how to empathize with others in everyday life.”

    #935252

    Health
    Participant

    haifagirl – No, that Isn’t Proof!

    In my post the Doc admits there is some good, but it looks like the bad outweighs the good!

    #935253

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I happen to agree that people under a certain age should not be using Facebook. That study was about teens. Teens do a lot of irresponsible things. They don’t need Facebook to do something stupid.

    But it is a leap to say because it causes some problems in some teens everybody, including adults, should stop using it.

    #935254

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health the only thing your proof proves is that people shouldn’t “overdose on facebook” (kind of obvious if you ask me) and that people with prior psychological conditions tend to have their conditions exacerbated by using facebook (and an obvious correlation – causation flaw right there). And the main problem with your study is that I could bring you 50 reputable studies that say the internet is horrible for our thinking and for society. Does that mean you should never use it?

    #935255

    Health
    Participant

    haifagirl -“I happen to agree that people under a certain age should not be using Facebook. That study was about teens. Teens do a lot of irresponsible things. They don’t need Facebook to do something stupid.

    But it is a leap to say because it causes some problems in some teens everybody, including adults, should stop using it.”

    The study was about teens because if you peruse the research you’ll find Adults don’t use Facebook very much -so they aren’t subjected to the same kinds of problems as teens. But if adults are doing the same things as teens like Facebook addiction -then they are subjected to the same negative results.

    #935256

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“@Health the only thing your proof proves is that people shouldn’t “overdose on facebook” (kind of obvious if you ask me)”

    Well -you missed the point -these type of sites are easily luring to anyone and it’s easy to become addicted. Your point is like there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol and there is nothing wrong with being in a bar all day. There might not be anything wrong with drinking alcohol, if you’re not addicted to it, but do you think being in a bar all day might influence some to become alcoholics? The same is true for facebook.

    “and that people with prior psychological conditions tend to have their conditions exacerbated by using facebook (and an obvious correlation – causation flaw right there).”

    The only flaw is your comment. In your haste to defend yourself you didn’t read it well. -“development of narcissism in teens who often use Facebook”.

    It also says it causes bad things -like Narcissism, even without other Mental Health issues.

    “And the main problem with your study is that I could bring you 50 reputable studies that say the internet is horrible for our thinking and for society. Does that mean you should never use it?”

    Go ahead and bring at least one. Most of those studies are about things that you are subjected to in the internet, like Social Networking sites and other bad sites. Leaving those things out -I wonder if you can even find one Professional Journal negating regular usage in the Net.

    The following article exposes the relationship of symptoms and Facebook, which implies to me that Facebook is problematic in itself, even if it’s just a general Internet addiction. Of course if it’s what they are calling a Facebook addiction -it’s obvious Facebook is causing the problem, like any other type of addiction, eg. gambling. Unless you’re now going to claim gambling sites and other sites -that there are no inherent attraction to cause people to become addicted. To claim this would be false and would be based on your lack of knowledge of addiction disorders. Here it is:

    “Relationship between Facebook use and problematic Internet use among college students.

    Kittinger R, Correia CJ, Irons JG.

    SourceDepartment of the Navy, Pensacola, Florida, USA.

    Abstract

    The popularity of Facebook and other online social-networking sites has led to research on the potential risks of use, including Internet addiction. Previous studies have reported that between 8 percent and 50 percent of college students report problems consistent with Internet addiction. The current study assessed a range of variables related to Facebook use, and sought to determine how the use of Facebook relates to problematic Internet use. Undergraduate participants (N=281, 72 percent women) completed a battery of self-report measures, including the Internet Addiction Test, via an online interface. The results of the current study suggest that a sizable minority of students experience problems related to Internet use and that the use of Facebook may contribute to the severity of symptoms associated with Internet addiction.”

    #935257

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health I will deal with your points one at a time.

    1) Anything in excess is bad – alcohol in itself is an addictive substance facebook is not. Just because people like to do something and it drags them in does not make it an “addiction” case in point the APA still refuses to classify internet overuse as an addiction. Again you like asserting that things are similar that are in fact dissimilar.

    2) I was pointing out an obvious flaw in the study – it is what we call a skip in logic. The study assumes that all the kids involved were normal prior to facebook use and that facebook was the only cause. It also assumes that facebook overuse causes narcissism and other mental issues and not vice versa. That is what is called a correlation – causation flaw. As the study does not mention numbers we are left to our own devices.

    3) articles and studies on internet addiction predate facebook – there were actually a bunch done in the late 90’s. There were studies on the affects of computer games, staring at a screen for too long, and how google is changing the way our brains are wired and that people dont know how to think or do research properly anymore. A simple search through google scholar will provide you with tons of reputable articles on the subject. I dont think the cr will allow for the links though so i will not attempt to post them.

    4) with the gambling thing again just because gambling and drinking are addictions does not make anything else you assert addictions.

    5) Even if we assume that facebook is an addictive substance – which i dont believe it to be so – it is still not a reason to not have it anymore than it is a reason not to have cell phones despite that fact that people check it/are on it all day. the allure is to be constantly connected socially which is a basic human need. It is like saying people shouldnt eat food or breath because you might get addicted (you see what I just did there?)

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