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Chazal teach us that women merit the next world because of their support and encouragement of their husband’s and children’s learning. Woman was created as an Ezer Knegdo, and so a womans obligation to help her husband is a primary tachlis of hers. Think of a woman as the manager of a baseball team. His job is to make sure the team wins. The husband is the team. Her job is to help him win the game, i.e. by becoming a great talmid chacham and yarei shamayim. Of course, she has her own mitzvos as well, which are also vital to her neshoma, but her role as an ezer kenegdo means that her success in Olam Habah depends on her supportive role to her husband. The converse is not true.
the manager of a baseball team is not “second class”. his role is to help the team win. if they win, he wins, if they lose, he loses. he facilitates and makes them win, but thyre the players. nobody would say joe torre has a second class role.
so too the woman is there to help the man win, by his becomign a talmid chacham. if he won, she wins. she facilitates his winning, but hes the player.
the torha says that woman was created as an ezer knegdo — if not for the role of ezer knegdo, she wouldnt have been created at all. But: This does not mean necessarily that someone would not have been created if not for the role of ezer knegdo. What it means is, hashem would have made you a man. We all would have been men. But Hashem saw in your neshoma that your best role – not the only possible one, but the best one for you – was to be an ezer kenegdo, and so he made you a woman. Your femmininity is NOT “you”. You are not intrinsically “male” or “female”. You are, intrinsically, “human being”. Your femininity is an incidental attribute, same as your age, your hair color, your financial status and your yichus. When hashem created you, He decides what tools to give you on this world to best fulfill your destiny. Some poeple he says are better suited to be a zevulun, some better suited to be a yissachar. This is true even though zevuluns role is to support yissachar. So too some people are best suited ot be men, and some are better suited to be women. Just as some are better suited to be rich and some not so rich, some very smart, some very strong, some born in our times and some born in ancient times etc. Hashem makes differnt people with different personalities and circumstances based on whats best for that perosn. People with a sense of justice are good for being dayanim; peple with a bloodlust are good for bing shochtim; etc. Your femininity is a trait, like a personality type, a physical type, etc. Hashem gave your femininity to you as an attribute; it is not “you.” You are a person who is famale, the same way a rich person is a person who is rich, and the same way a smart person is a person who is smart. These are circumstances and tools Hashem gave people in order ot fulfill their role best in this world.
Some people incorrectly assume that the only reason you were created is to have a supporting role. besides that thers nothign second class about that as described above, it is an incorrect statement. Its not that the only reason Hashme created you was to have a supporting role. Rather, you would have been created anyway, but your femininity, like a wealthy man’s money, like a wise person’s brains, were given to you because Hashem knew you would be able to accomplish your potential best in this world by receiving that tool to use it for the sake of Kovod Shamayim.
Women have a completely different job in the world. Ezer knegdo / akeres habayis / eyshes chayil / etc. For that, if a woman does her job of keepign the Torah, not allowing outside influences and society to impact on her thinking – as per kol kevuda bas melech – then the Binah yeserah Hashem gave her will guide her in her role.
But just like a man can neglect learning torah, a woman can neglect protecting her binah yeserah. So if she allows culture and sciety to influence her thinking, in violation of all those halachos and warnings that chazal give us – her binah could c”v be corrupted.
Men and women are both given the ability to get “clarity” for the things they need to do in this world. Men and women dont need the same type or measure of clarity. The Gemora says that the type of reasoning that Gemora provides those who learn it is detrimental to a woman spiritually. If you give a policeman a fire hose it will only deter him in doing his job. Men were chosen for certina roles in this world, including charting the course for Klal Yisroel, as in Gedolei HaDor, or, as it pertains to most men, to chart the course for their families, and their talmidim. For that, Torah trains them.
Girls go to high school and study hard (let’s say) for Chumash tests, staying up late and night figuring out the meanign of the ibn Exras and Rambans. Then they get married to a Kollel guy, have children, and assume the role of Akeres HaBayis, possibly never to open an ibn Ezra again.
You learn how Midos is the most important thing in the world, yet on the report card, you can have a half dozen red, circled “dalets” because you failed your academic subjects, and the fact that youre the most righteous baals midos in the world is hardly documented.
I know about this – it is an issue. In more Chassidishe circles, girls are brought up more in line with their ultimate roles as wives and mothers, and therefore, in those circles, you will not hear any girls asking “what is my role” – it’s pretty clear.
Which is the real women’s role in Judaism? the one we learn about or the one we experience – the Akeres HaBayis or the High School valedictorian?
The answer is the Akeres HaBayis. And ideally, your upbringing would reflect that; a century ago, it would have. Problem was, girls were getting influenced by Haskalah and secularism and we had to counter it with a good dose of Torah education for girls. That’s how the BY movement started. It wasn’t ideal, but it was needed. if you wish, you can say it was ideal for these times.
But, like all horaos shah, the edge between the ideal (l’chatchilah) and the necessity (b’dieved) gets blurred. Sometimes Horaas Shash is obvisouly worth the price we pay; sometimes it is obvisouly not worth it. Often, it needs the hachraah of Gedolei Yisroel. this was such a case, and there were Gedolim who were against the BY movement for that and other similar reasons.
However, most Gedolei Yisroel, especially the Litvishe Gedolim, first and foremost among them the Chofetz Chaim ZTL, were in favor of organized education for girls, and the By movement was enthusiastically embraced.
Medicine often has side effects, but we take it anyway.
And here we are now, 100 years later, and the you are feeling “side effects”. Rav Shach ztl and others have stated that a BY schools that teaches too many Meforshim has gone too far, and has crossed the line into what they are not allowed to teach. others, such as the Satmar Rebbe ztl write that even the Chofetz Chaim never intended for girls to learn Meforshim in the first place.
At the other extreme, certain institutions have gone totally beyond the bounds of what is permitted, and have started teaches girls Gemora, which has led to Modern orthodox women writing teshuvos and paskening shailos, deciding which Poskim are correct and which are not! (And, as you can imagine, with the grossest level of incompetence)
But everybody agrees that whatever you are being taught, the ultimate goal is to instill Yiras Shamayim and a fiery commitment to your role as an Akeres HaBayis. No matter how big a melumedes you are, Chazal’s statement applies to you:
How do women merit the next world? By supporting their husbands and children in their learning.
There are women – melumodos and not – who fulfill this role royally. If I may mention a name, Rebitzen Zahava Braunstein a”h was one of them.
There are many others as well.
All the academics and experiences in your BY education is meant to direct you and teach you how to fulfill your ultimate role as an Aishes Chayil and Akeres Habayis, but it is not meant as a microcosm of that role.
HOT-
You and I alone know the true pshat in the posuk “ezer knegdo”, but now I’m going to let the secret out. The meaning is understood by reversing the phrase to “k’negdo, ezer”. Men are self-destructive beings in every way, and everything they do is to their own detriment. Hence, by opposing man, woman prevents his self-destructiveness, which is a help to him. K’negdo, ezer.
At least, that’s what I learned from at Torah N.O.W. meetings 🙂
“Girls go to high school and study hard (let’s say) for Chumash tests, staying up late and night figuring out the meanign of the ibn Exras and Rambans. Then they get married to a Kollel guy, have children, and assume the role of Akeres HaBayis, possibly never to open an ibn Ezra again.”
Why do you assume that? I am married 33 years kinehora, and I go to shiurim regularly> When did you last sit and learn a posuk of Chumash and Navi with meforshim? These kollel guys do know Gemarah, but not really much in the way of Tanach. And I am the Akeres of my Bayis, and I promise you that has never stopped me from learning Chumash whenever I was not busy with my kids and husband (not necessarily in that order all the time). And who do you think it is exactly, who sits up studying with the children before THEIR chumash tests? Certainly not the father who is either in Beis Medrash at night or coming home late from work. If those mothers were not learned, do you think they could be of much help to their children in limudei Kodesh? B”H my kids benefited from something that I could not, because in my mom’s day, women did NOT normally go to Yeshivah, and there were no Artscroll chumashim.
When I am in Shul on Shabbos I use the time when people are getting called up for an aliyah to go over a Rashi or an ibn Ezra in the Parshas Hashavua. I take the Torah sheets that some organizations send out with D”T, and read them also, and that is just during the “empty time” before the next aliyah is being layned. Don’t assume, etc. etc. etc.
Squeak, I’m rolling about the “Torah N.O.W.” comment!!!
You don’t comment enough.
hereorthere, isn’t life hard when one sees everything as a conspiracy?
This past Shabbos I read an article by Rabbi Shneur Aisenstark in Mishpacha magazine (June 16,’10) on the topic of liberalism.
Among his great article was one paragraph which can sum up the topic of this thread with a prominent Rabbi’s hashkafic view. He writes “Misguided Jewish women who bacame active in the movement did not undersand that in the Torah’s eyes, men and women are equal but different; they have different goals, orientations, needs, and obligations. The influence of the women’s lib movement caused them to feel that they should be allowed to do anything that a man can do, as long as it did not contradict their intepration of halacha…”
Boy is this a long thread! Anyways the debate whether “equal” is or isn’t the appropriate description for comparing men and women, I think, is one of semantics. I don’t even see a discrepancy between that quote from Mishpacha magazine and the earlier quote of Rav Miller zt”l from his sefer. (Even though Rav Miller is a godol hador, and not to equate what he said to a magazine quote.) Rav Miller said there can’t be 2 kings or 2 commanders and that the wife is submissive, and the husband is the captain while the wife is his first mate. OTOH the article in Mishpacha (at least from the partial context it was quoted) doesn’t seem to be talking about a husband – wife relationship but rather men – women comparison in general.
So, myfriend, when a man and woman get married the woman becomes less equal to the man?
A husband has the role of authority in marriage and the wife is submissive. However, as I said before, in the correct hashkafic framework, the husband and wife have to know when the husband exerts his authority and when there has to be a compromise when the wife feels that she should be the knegdo, a help for the husband by going against or enlightening him to in the correct approach in a situation.
Rabbi Miller zt”l explained the differences in marital roles. He did not say that a wife is less than equal to a husband, rather they have different roles in the marriage as a captain and first mate. In real life a captain is not superior as a human being than a first mate, nor is the first mate’s job less vital for a succesful voyage . I think the analogy of a captain and first mate is an exellent one for if the captain becomes incapacitated and cannot steer the ship the first mate takes over. So too in a marriage, if the husband’s authority becomes incapacited for whatever reason, wrong decision, etc. the wife takes over and becomes the negdo in the marriage so that she can be the ezer.
No, clearheaded, I don’t think anyone becomes less equal. The question is whether the term equal is the right term in the first place. Is the President “equal” to the Vice President? As a human being, absolutely. In his function as Vice President, absolutely not. But like you said, if the President becomes incapacitated, the VP takes over his function.
I do think a wife should “enlighten” her husband when appropriate, but not c”v “going against” him.
clearheaded, I just looked at Rav Miller zt”l’s quote again, and actually he specifically is against the term “equal”.
Quote from his sefer:
“Before marriage it is imperative to ascertain the young woman’s attitude toward feminism and “women’s rights” and careerism. It is out of the question to build a Jewish home, or any home whatsoever, if the prospective wife has been tainted with these anti-natural and anti-social preachings. The woman’s career and happiness are in her home: absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her Free Will, and they are her chief forms of serving G-d. The modern orthodox “Rebbetzin” with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce. A Beth Jacob girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beth Jacob marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day. It is never a simple matter to achieve harmony in the home; effort and wisdom and fear of G-d are required. But with the additional burden of feminism, all problems become aggravated; and like all the unnatural and anti-social affectations of the libertarians this leads only to failure and unhappiness.”
The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce
Where did I say that there should equal leadership within the family?
I said, the husband is the authority, the wife is submissive. Sometimes the wife is correct and not the husband (just talking reality here, sorry) and therefore there are intances where the wife needs to be assertive.
Okay, but at the end of the day she needs to act with her husband’s approval. She needs to be a good communicator to convince her husband when she feels he may be wrong on something.
Right, but what if the husband is being unreasonable? Again talking reality here.
If husband and wife cannot compromise on an issue, a daas Torah should be consulted.
The question is whether the term equal is the right term in the first place. Is the President “equal” to the Vice President? As a human being, absolutely. In his function as Vice President, absolutely not. But like you said, if the President becomes incapacitated, the VP takes over his function
I do believe that a husband and wife are equal partners in the marriage with different roles. I don’t believe it’s like the pres./vice pres. kind of relationship where the vice president’s opinions hold little water and he’s basically just holds a lame duck kind of post.
A wife is not like that at all. She is actively involved in the family and marital affairs. Her opinion holds weight but that does not contradict the fact the the husband is the authority and the wife is generally submissive except when the need arises that she be assertive.
You’re disagreeing with the gadol hador, as per the bolded quote from his sefer a few posts back. I tend to go with the gedolim rather than with opinions of the hamon hoam.
“You’re disagreeing with the gadol hador, as per the quote from his sefer a few posts back”
And why is that? I don’t know of any gadol saying that a husband/wife relationship is like a president/vice pres. type of relationship.
He specifically said the leadership is not equal, so what is your splitting hairs about “equal partners”?
The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce
Equal partnership with unequal leadership. Never heard of businesses where there are partners and each partner specializes in their area of expertise?
A succesful partnership in business and marriage is where each partner respects the others part in the partnership and doesn’t try to usurp the others role.
Either a partnership is 50/50 and thus equal, or it is not.
A marriage is not an equal partnership; the husband is the authority and Captain. A first mate is not equal to the Captain. This is the gadol saying this (as well as being common sense and how marriage has been practiced since the institution of marriage), not me.
I AM saying that the marriage is EQUAL, but everyone has different roles in the marriage. One of them is the leadership role and that is the husband’s.
Now you don’t have to agree with me on my perception of what marriage is and that Rabbi Miller’s analogy applies only in the area of leadership within the marriage and I don’t percieve his analogy of captain and first mate describing the marriage less than 50/50 od the sum total of the marriage, rather that it describes who gets the role of the leader in marriage.
Marriage is not only about the leadership role, but rather the purpose of marriage is to build a binyan adey ad. And to complete this goal the husband and wife need to fulfill their respective roles and those include other roles in addition to leadership.
Again you don’t have to agree with my perception of marriage and how I view what Rabbi Miller meant.
Partners can be equal and yet each marriage partner must fulfill defferent roles so that the marriage can flow smoothly – as smoothly as it could when it’s made up of two different pesonalities and genders.
He said there is NO equal leadership. You are splitting hairs with your differentiation between “leadership” and “partnership”. I think the reason is even you’ve come (a bit) under the influence of what he called “the unnatural and anti-social affectations” of feminism and their push for equality.
He said there is NO equal leadership.
Exactly. He did not say no equal partnership.
You are splitting hairs with your differentiation between “leadership” and “partnership
Leadership= guidence, headship
Partnership=relationship, collaboration
In my dictionary these two words have completely different meanings so I don’t agree with you that I’m “splitting hairs.”
I think it’s important to distinguish that there are two different types of equality being discussed here:
1. Equality of position – as in, both people having identical responsibilities, or in this case, the woman being able to and having the same responsibilities as her husband. Men and women do NOT have the same equality in position. A man is supposed to lead the house, etc.
2. Equality of importance – however, both partners are equally important in the functioning of the marriage/family. The two roles are often diametrically opposites, yet both are needed 100%.
Women are different, we’re supposed to be different, but we’re just as important as the men in the marriage.
“Equality of position”
Shma benie mussar uvicha v’al titosh Torah’s imecha. One should listen to the father as he is the authority in the house. And the mother is the one that gives over the Torah’s hashkafas which one should adhere to. Hashkafas shape the family. Clearly, the women in the house has subtle, but tremendous power in influencing her husband and family in different ways. The mother is the influence in the house.
It is self understood that within each role that the wife and husband need to fulfill there is inequality. That’s precisely what the idea of different roles mean -that the husband fulfill his roles and the wife hers.
I agree with you plaid, but not on the inequality of position as only in leadership, rather on inequalities of positions that each, the husband and wife have.
clearheaded, earlier in the thread you said you are submissive to your husband’s authority, so I don’t see that we disagree much in practice.
clearheaded, earlier in the thread you said you are submissive to your husband’s authority, so I don’t see that we disagree much in practice.
I definitely am submissive to my husband. And I’m also assertive, in an ezer k’negdo way, when I need to be as well.
I’m sure we don’t disagree in practice as in a healthy marriage a man is the authority, a woman is submissive and sometimes there need to be compromises. I would expect a husband and wife in a healthy marriage to have the common sense to know when the wife needs to be submissive and when there needs to be a compromise.
I think this discussion revolves around the Chazal of “isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah”.
“I think this discussion revolves around the Chazal of “isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah”
My point is that marriage has more angles than only the one question of who leads and isha ksheira osa ratzon baaloh is one aspect in marriage. There are many other Torah views on the subject of marriage and they all encompass the multifacted relationship between husband and wife.
True, yet none disagree with the Chazal of isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah. I’m sure you weren’t saying otherwise.
Would you like to quote which part of the Torah you are referring to regarding other reflections on marriage?
True, yet none disagree with the Chazal of isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah. I’m sure you weren’t saying otherwise.
What makes you think I would c”v say otherwise?
Would you like to quote which part of the Torah you are referring to regarding other reflections on marriage?
Well first of all, we discussed the term ezerk’negdo. If a woman would just be the yes man, it would just say ezer, k’negdo means that sometimes she needs to be assertive.
Then there’s the instance where Sara Imeinu told Avrahm Avinu to send away Yishmael and Hashem told Avrohom to listen to Sara. The wife has a binah yesierah an intuition which could at times clash with a husband’s logic.
Rifkah feared her husband Yitchok and therefore sent Yaakov to Yitchok to get the brachos in an underhanded way. I don’t remember where the source is for this but I definitely read it somewhere that that was not the ideal relatonship one should have in a marriage.
Oin ben Peles listened to his wife and was therefore saved. Korach’s wife caused him his destruction because she instigated him to do wrong. The wife has a major influence on the husband and family. We also see that from the posuk (I’m not sure but I think the posuk originates from Mishlei)”shma beni mussor avicha v’al titosh Toras imacha” the mother has a major influence upon the entire family and should therefore it is her duty to impart Torah values.
The bracha sheusani kirtzoinoy is interperted by some meforshim as to mean that since the woman is spiritually complete and therefore is exempt from mitzvos shehasman grama, she needs to give thanks to Hashem for making her according to His Will but men need to thank Hashem for not freeing them from their obligations to serve Hashem with the mitzvos He gave them.
Some meforshim also interpret this bracha to mean that Hashem made women according to His Will and since He is a Giver, women are too. Women are by nature givers (feminism or liberism- whatever you want to call it, turned women into selfish creatures)and therefore have the role of givers in the marriage and family.
These are just some reflections on the women’s role in marriage and motherhood and I’m sure there are many others that I can’t think of off the top of my head. I need to do some research to unearth more instances of husband/wife roles and relationships, but I don’t have time for that now.
I’m not disagreeing with the substance of your post. Just a point. Oin did not listen to his wife which is why she had to resort to trickery to save his life.
Mod-80, you are right.
However the wife feels that l’shem shomayim she must guide her husband on the right track she should do that with wisdom.
I’m sure we don’t disagree in practice as in a healthy marriage a man is the authority, a woman is submissive and sometimes there need to be compromises.
Again, I don’t see why you say it has to be that way. If it works for your marriage — great. But not every marriage is that way.
In my marriage, no one is the “ultimate authority,” and it works *very* well for us. In other marriages I know, the wife is more assertive and the husband is more laid-back (my grandparents were like that) and it works for them.
IOW, you can’t make the blanket statement that the man has to be the authority and the wife submissive for it to be a healthy marriage. Every marriage is different and one model does not work for all couples.
The Wolf
The Wolf
IOW, you can’t make the blanket statement that the man has to be the authority and the wife submissive for it to be a healthy marriage. Every marriage is different and one model does not work for all couples.
This is ex-clearheaded- I changed my posting name and all the previous posts under the name clearheaded changed as well.
Wolf, I definitely agree with you. In reality each couple has a different type of relationship and if it works for them and they have sholom bayis – that’s the ikkur.
Truthfully, while some things are a given that I yield to my husband wishes, we do mutually share a marriage where opinions are usually equally considered.
But for those who see things in black and white (it doesn’t mean they live that way- they just see it like that), then the husband is the authority.
“Again, I don’t see why you say it has to be that way. If it works for your marriage — great. But not every marriage is that way.”
WRONG!! It hasta be that way cause the Torah and our gedolim say it has to be that way. Are you smarter than Rav Miller? Are you bigger than chazal? The Torah says the man is in charge vhu yimshol bach. Any other way is not kosher and not the way the Torah wants a marraige to be run. I realy think you should ask a shaila about yur marriage since you seem to keep doing things kneged the Torah and all kidushin and marrages have to be kdas Moshe vyisroel.
mosherose – each partner has their place and a women has a tremendous koach too “behind the scenes” isnt that why the wife is called “akeres habayis” has the koach to be oker or ikur. Same r’ yossi called wife bayisi not ishti…and many others yes husband should be treated like the king, but for any shalom bayis to work there has to be MUTUAL RESPECT.
“but for any shalom bayis to work there has to be MUTUAL RESPECT.”
I agree their has to be mutual respect. But the man is still the boss — thats the proper torah way to run a mariage.
While Rav Avigdor Miller was a brilliant Rabbi, he gave general advice for the overall population. Specifics for couples are not always the same. In my marriage, me being submissive just wouldn’t work well.
My husband and I are b”h very happy with each other.
yitayningwut:
Regarding the husband being the captain of the family and the wife assistant captain see Shulchan Aruch EH 69:7, right at the end. (Sorry for the wrong perek earlier in the thread.)
I just wanted to add for the record, even though nobody knows who I am, but I feel it was disrespectful for me to end my last post by implying that I agree in theory that the husband is the authority and yet don’t practice it.
The husband is the authority, but the way I practice that is not that our opinions are not equally considered rather that I follow my husband’s my husbands minhugim and stuff like that.
Some men are completely INCAPABLE of being the so-called boss, and being forced into that role, puts a great strain on the marriage. I know a couple, a bit younger than myself, where the wife really HAS to take charge, or nothing would ever get done by them. Her husband is a nice enough person, and we enjoy their company, but if she did not make the decisions, decisions would not be made. I personally do not know how their marriage has worked for over 25 years, but work, it does! The dynamic of their household ONLY works when she is in charge. BTW, I know her from before they were married, and she was never a bossy type back then. It evolved that way, because he is a mild person who does not have the desire to take that leadership role and is content for her to do as she wishes.
NOBODY knows who u are?! 😉
philosopher: So if you agree you are subject to your husbands authority, what’s the problem?
philosopher: So if you agree you are subject to your husbands authority, what’s the problem?
If I don’t spell things out very clearly then people misconstrue what I’ve written.
I have finished my one before the last post with the sentence:
em>Truthfully, while some things are a given that I yield to my husband wishes, we do mutually share a marriage where opinions are usually equally considered.
I wanted to stress that while my husband’s and my opninions are mutually considered equal, I still subject myself to my husband’s authority regarding minhugim and the like.
Oomis pointed out that sometimes the wife needs to take charge. Even with Rabbi Miller’s analogy of a husband being the captain, we must realize that Rabbi Miller never dictated to us HOW that should be done, and the fact is there are barely four halachos (maybe a few more that don’t know of) that show the husband is the authority in that particular area that halacha perscribed but not more, as marraiges are not cookie cutter shaped and the ikkur that Hashem wants of us is that there should be sholom bayis in the house.
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