August 7, 2016 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #618089
i think “frum” boys who smoke should be considered OTD even if they go to yeshiva and learn all day, etc…. i think that girls should be more careful when it comes to dating these kinds of girls. anyone else want to add anything about this post about what they think about what “frum” boys who smoke? this has been talked about in mishpacha and ami and else where as well.August 7, 2016 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1178912
Girls have no choice but to marry smoking boys because, as is well known, there is a shortage of available boys for every girl and as it is some girls will be left with no one to marry. So without marrying smoking boys, even more girls will be left at the altar unable to marry anyone.August 7, 2016 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1178913yeshivishyenta101Participant
just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are otd!!!!!!!!!August 7, 2016 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1178914yeshivishyenta101Participant
just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are otd!!!!!!!!!August 7, 2016 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1178915Mashiach AgentMember
Girls don’t date girls as you wroteAugust 7, 2016 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1178916Abba_SParticipant
I don’t understand why are boys who smoke going OTD? Just because they don’t believe that smoking causes cancer they are OTD. You are bring proof from a magazine would you say the same for parent who refuse to get their children vaccinated.
I don’t smoke nor does anyone in my family, but my son-in law does. He is a good husband and only smokes outside the house or car and never in front of the children. Girls who limit themselves to those who don’t smoke may miss marrying their Bershet.
I am assuming smoking is referring to tobacco and not a smoking hot boy meaning very handsome boy.
You might want to buy a life insurance policy on this boy they are very cheap at this age.
Joseph: What this thing with left at the Alter. You know the Temple was destroyed 2000 years ago. Perhaps it’s referring to the groom who is stoned with candies as it says “From my Alter they will take him out to be executed”. I think you meant that they would even get engaged.August 7, 2016 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1178917lesschumrasParticipant
I’ve often wondered where do they get the money ? Cigarettes are expensive. A girl who marries a smoker is also going to be bringing the stench and filth into her house as well as the second hand smoke that will endanger the health of her children as well as her own.August 7, 2016 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1178918
mashiach agent – that was a typo and i wasnt able to fix it.
joseph – most of the boys i know dont smoke because its bad for their health and b’h they go to yeshiva with all different types of boys. so if i were to date someone they would let me know if they smoked or not and tell me not to date them. i dont think a girl should be forced to have to marry a smoker. this is bad for her health and her kids health.August 7, 2016 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1178919
YY -“just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are otd!”
Sure they are! As a matter of fact, some Yeshivas will throw out a smoker!August 7, 2016 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1178920
Joe -“So without marrying smoking boys, even more girls will be left at the altar unable to marry anyone.”
Wrong! There is enough men to marry. They could marry an older guy.
I started a topic on this called – “Who wants to be a Tzaddikes like Rus?”.August 7, 2016 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1178921mynameismysecretMember
The torah says you should be healthy, smoking is not healthy, but just because you smoke you are “OTD”. So now all the fat people of the world are OTD too?
I want a healthy husband for my kids, so no smoking is needed. But I understand if someone smokes from time to time…August 7, 2016 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1178922
Okay, Health. Once there are only smokers left to marry in their age category those 25 year old girls will have to choose between a young smoker or a 50+ year old.August 7, 2016 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1178923iacisrmmaParticipant
As usual, Sparkly and Health are off the mark. While I agree that smoking is dangerous, bad for a person’s health, an addiction…it does not mean that someone is “OTD”.August 7, 2016 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1178924
girls don’t have a choice? Who are you trying to bait on this one? I wouldn’t allow a smoker into my family any more than I would allow anyone with any other self-serving, self absorbed, inconsiderate, hypocritical midda.
just saying…August 7, 2016 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1178925
Girls have no choice but to marry smoking boys because, as is well known, there is a shortage of available boys for every girl and as it is some girls will be left with no one to marry. So without marrying smoking boys, even more girls will be left at the altar unable to marry anyone.
Vomit. On a whole bunch of levels.August 7, 2016 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1178926
What if the choice is a nice boy in all regards, except that he smokes, or being a spinster?August 7, 2016 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1178927
(You aren’t really as humorless as you’re pretending to be, right?)August 7, 2016 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1178928
when you do things l’shma – like chosing the right torah values for your future home – you aren’t chosing between a smoker and a spinster. I think that statement is disgusting and lacks bitachon on all levels.
And if you have to chose between a girl in tight clothes or being a bum on the street…as if those are the two options Hashem would give you.August 7, 2016 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1178929
What if the choice is a nice boy in all regards, except that he smokes,
OxymoronAugust 7, 2016 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1178930
+1 SyagAugust 7, 2016 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1178931
back at yaAugust 7, 2016 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1178932
🙂August 7, 2016 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1178933
i think “frum” boys who smoke should be considered OTD even if they go to yeshiva and learn all day, etc….
I know you didn’t meant this when you wrote it, but I have to tell you, I find your definition of OTD to be personally offensive.
My mother was raised in a non-oberservant home and began smoking as a teenager. After her marriage broke up (at age thirty) she became Orthodox as a single mother, encouraging my sister and I to become Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos. She sacrificed personally and professionally to remain a Shomeres Torah U’Mitzvos and if you were to ask her if she could have any one thing in the world (and only that thing), it would have been that her children become/remain fine, upstanding frum Jews. She fought to get my sister and I into yeshivos, recognizing that public school was not the option that would serve our spiritual growth. She faced opposition from yeshivos that did not want us but, with the help of HKBH and some friends, she was able to prevail.
I was not the best of teens and certainly gave my mother a fair amount of grief. While I did not appreciate it as a child, I know that she shed plenty of tears in prayer that her children grow up to establish Torah-observant homes.
As her health failed (she had lots of health issues unrelated to her smoking [although the smoking certainly didn’t help them]), she would still do whatever she possibly could to observe the mitzvos to the best of her physical ability. Anyone who knew her would characterize her as an example of a pillar of faith. Anyone who had her extensive health problems after becoming observant could almost be excused for questioning their faith, but my mother, despite being in physical pain for the last twenty five years of her life, never questioned her faith. I never once heard the words “Why me?” (or the equivalent) escape her lips.
Over the years, she tried several times to stop smoking but was never successful. Despite all sorts of encouragement, cajoling and support from my sister and I and our children, she was just never able to kick the habit.
So, yeah, she should not have smoked. Granted. Bad on her for that. But to hear you cavalierly toss off this woman as “off the derech” and equate her with people who are mechallel Shabbos, eat pork and don’t observe the mitzvos in general is deeply offensive.
Of course, you didn’t know my mother and you were thinking of yeshiva bochrim rather than a woman who completely changed her life and made a major commitment to Yiddishkeit, sacrificed for it, cried for it and made it (and her childrens’ commitment to it) the central focus of her life. But that doens’t change the fact that you still want to lump her in with the completely non-observant.
Please be careful when you throw out the term OTD and who you decide to include in that category. I think that, given how much she demonstrated her commitment to Torah and Mitzvos over the course of her life, is it deeply unfair and (admittedly unintentionally) offensive to categorize her as “off the derech” for the habit she could not kick. It’s as if you’re saying “all that you did… meaningless, because you were still off the derech.”
The WolfAugust 7, 2016 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1178934
I find your definition of OTD to be personally offensive.
seems to be a running theme for her postsAugust 7, 2016 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1178935
Nu, kapusta, would you still describe it as an oxymoron to say that Wolf’s mother was both a nice person and a smoker? And, Syag, would you still compare Wolf’s mom, who smoked, to a girl in tight clothes?August 7, 2016 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1178936
we are jointly not allowing you to play that game.
You made a statement about being stuck or marrying a smoker. We responded. Wolf’s dear mother has nothing to do with this conversation.August 7, 2016 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1178937
I think Wolf’s dear mother was a wonderful spouse and parent. Smoking notwithstanding. And I think we can apply the lesson’s from Wolf’s mother to shidduch prospects who smoke.August 7, 2016 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1178938
do you realize how stupid that sounds or do you need it pointed out?August 7, 2016 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1178939
Nu, kapusta, would you still describe it as an oxymoron to say that Wolf’s mother was both a nice person and a smoker? And, Syag, would you still compare Wolf’s mom, who smoked, to a girl in tight clothes?
Please, do me a favor. I did not mean to bring my mother into this to become an object of argument. I simply wanted to bring the OP to the realization that smoking is not “off the derech” and that a person’s life, in totality, needs to be considered. It was to bring the OP to that realization that I brought her up — not for any other.
I would take it as a kindness if you not use her as a point in an argument.
The WolfAugust 7, 2016 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1178940
Please point it out.August 7, 2016 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1178941
***Joseph being manipulative***
Syag, would you still compare Wolf’s mom,August 7, 2016 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1178942
Thank you Wolf, I hope you saw from my post that I agree with you.
Joseph – I will take your twist in the conversation that was about prospective shidduchim who smoke to mean you are admitting defeat or surrendering. Had you any remaining valid points you would have made them.
Kapusta/Syag 1 Joseph 0August 7, 2016 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1178943
I simply wanted to bring the OP to the realization that smoking is not “off the derech” and that a person’s life, in totality, needs to be considered.
I agree, Wolf. I think this same principle applies to a smoker not only regarding being OTD or not, but whether he/she is a nice person or a worthwhile shidduch prospect. The person’s life, in totality, needs to be considered.August 7, 2016 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1178944yehudayonaParticipant
My daughter married a smoker. He went to a yeshiva in Israel where everyone smoked including the Rosh Yeshiva. She (and we) saw that despite his smoking, he was a good person and would be a good husband and father. Within the first year of marriage, he quit smoking.August 7, 2016 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1178945
mynameismysecret -“The torah says you should be healthy, smoking is not healthy, but just because you smoke you are “OTD”. So now all the fat people of the world are OTD too?”
Look there is a Big difference between a smoker and a fat guy!
The smoker once he started to smoke, it was a conscious decision.
The fat guy or gal, usually didn’t decide to become fat, it usually takes over-eating for many years.
So it makes sense for s/o to say they’re OTD!August 7, 2016 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1178946
yehudayona -“My daughter married a smoker. Within the first year of marriage, he quit smoking.”
I’m glad it worked out for you. But your implication is wrong!
It’s Not that easy to quit, and those that finally do, it takes years!August 7, 2016 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1178947miamilawyerParticipant
Can we all agree that comparing smoking to being OTD was probably not meant literally and probably was a poor choice of words?
The larger point however is valid. Obviously, smoking is not a good habit and it is certainly reasonable to say it is a strike against a person, and for some people, it may be a deal breaker, but everyone has their own deal breakers.
I also note that as with many things, times have changed, so any reference to people who grew up in the past and struggled with smoking when it was more common is not relevant (except to the point about it being like OTD, which I don’t think the poster really meant). I went to Hebrew Academy and the rabbi who served us the kosher food and his wife smoked (not while serving, but there was a stench). It bothered some then, it would be unheard of now.
And today, I think an inference can be drawn that someone who smokes is more of a rebel than in the past, when it was quite common. Of course, like anything else, there are exceptions, but it is a fair generalization if not an absolute rule.August 7, 2016 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1178948
There are opinions that smoking [at least on a regular basis] is an issur d’oraysa. We are dealing with a safek issur d’oraysa, people.
Certainly to start smoking is forbidden. If one is already addicted, maybe he doesn’t have to quit cold-turkey, but on the other hand there are ways to quit…August 7, 2016 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1178949August 7, 2016 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1178950
iacisrmma – it is otd because you need to take care of your health. their specifically doing something bad for their health.
syag lachochma – i 100% agree.
Joseph – my guy wont smoke h’h. theirs plenty that dont. in fact most of the ones i know dont.
wolfish musings – your referring to a lady that was not born religious. it is so different. cannot even compare the 2. whatever she did keep that was extra was good enough for her.
yehudayona – you just hit my point. my future husband h’h went to the same type of yeshiva as your daughters husband did. but he still refused to smoke. he always knew it was bad. and b’h didnt otherwise we may never end up together.August 7, 2016 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1178951August 8, 2016 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1178952miamilawyerParticipant
@Mik, I should have been clear. I agree with your point too and was not meaning to ignore the obvious point that smoking kills and that is obviously not permitted. But the fact that someone may have an issue with one mitzvah or struggles with one issue, does not make them OTD. Full compliance cannot be the test as no one is perfect (and indeed, on yom kippur half the day is spent repenting for sins far worse than I am sure most have ever committed).
But again, the larger point is valid. Smoking is outrageous and it seems there is a lax attitude in many religious communities towards it. (See joseph’s response). Just because some gedolim who may not have known better did it in the past, does not make it ok. There is far more resistance/disagreement on this obvious issue then there should be.August 8, 2016 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1178953Abba_SParticipant
Joseph: Back in the late 1970s I had a similar argument if smoking is prohibited to safeguard your life. Among the claims for smoking are :
1)R’ Moshe never prohibited it he just said G-d watches out for the JACKASS.
2) The yeshivas only prohibited smoking on premises because of the parents and supporters
3) The studies that prove that smoking is hazardous are flawed.
A person who is Reform or MO “they” want to bring him closer but someone who is frum but is addicted to smoking “they ” want to discard like a piece of trash. Are smokers addicted to Nicotine? Are they covered under “People with Disabilities” Act? Is calling them OTD Hate Speech or at least slander against a protected minority according to Jewish Law?
How different is it from saying “X” is OTD because he is a Chicago Cubs fans. One has nothing to do with the other.August 8, 2016 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1178954iacisrmmaParticipant
I too think smoking is wrong. But by this definition then anyone who…speed or pass a red light you are otd. If you use nivel peh you are otd. You eat ice cream, pizza, doughnut, cake you are otd.August 8, 2016 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1178955
wolfish musings – your referring to a lady that was not born religious. it is so different. cannot even compare the 2. whatever she did keep that was extra was good enough for her.
So what? You’ve decided that because she smoked she’s off the derech.
The WolfAugust 8, 2016 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1178956Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Smoking is the MO’s favorite topic to bring up. It’s where they get to say that, because they don’t do it, they’re really better than everyone more stringent than them. There is probably a greater number of pokim who assur smart phones than there are they assur cigarettes. Would you consider iphone users “OTD?”August 8, 2016 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1178957
I’m very uncomfortable using Wolf’s mother as a specific example and you can hardly compare the smoking of a friend/acquaintance who was raised when smoking was generally accepted, to a potential spouse raised in a time when the dangers are well known.
That said, despite what I think of smokers in general, I disagree with the premise of the op.August 8, 2016 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1178958lesschumrasParticipant
Neville, when did this become a MO issue? Please let go of the paranoia. MO smoke and no hurs use smartphones.
By the way, there was a news article that increased charaidi use of social media has led to 4000 revocations of draft exemptions. Postings on facebook showed they weren’t in yeshivaAugust 8, 2016 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1178959
Neville ChaimBerlin – that is SOOO different. so now you want to tell me that your definition of modern is someone who watches TV and listens to not jewish music and goes to movies? Thats considered regular like me NOT mo like the only people who dont are the rabbis kids. i happen to have a mo rabbi as well but i dont consider going to movies, listening to not jewish music, watching TV mo its NOT going against the Torah. Breaking shomer, wearing pants, etc.. are going against the Torah.August 8, 2016 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1178960
You’ve decided that because she smoked she’s off the derech.
Wolf, in all fairness, even tho I think she is either trolling or just being highly offensive to most of us here unintentionally, she never said a word about your mother or anyone similar. The (somewhat ridiculous) statement was:
i think “frum” boys who smoke should be considered OTD even if they go to yeshiva and learn all day, etc..
Your mother was neither frum nor a boy when she began smoking.
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