"frum" boys who smoke

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  • #1179067
    Health
    Participant

    iacisrmma -“Health: I have my own opinion and I only use this alias. From what I can see from all of your posts (on this and all other topics) is that YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO MANIPULATE EVERYONE. You quoted the sources for the gedolim you mentioned. All I said was that quoting R’ Moshe accurately is not a krumkeit.”

    “YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO MANIPULATE EVERYONE.”

    How so?

    “All I said was that quoting R’ Moshe accurately is not a krumkeit.”

    #1179068
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I’m sorry Health….Your last post accusing me and apashtayid of being the same person turned me off from reading most of what you wrote.

    Until I have a chance to go through the actual teshuvah from R’ Moshe I will not comment on whether you or anyone else quoted him accurately.

    #1179069
    apushatayid
    Participant

    iacarisma. I was addressing health, not you.

    health. no, we are not the same person, but, we both agree that you misunderstand (distort is too harsh a word I decided) R’ Moshe.

    “I quoted Rav Moshe that says being that the chance of getting sick from smoking is only a ??? ???? so therefore it’s Mutter.”

    Actually, you misunderstood the teshuva completely. The fact that it is a ??? ???? allows us to apply shomer pisayim hashem. Read the teshuva from the beginning. Ordinarily one can not say, I will put myself in a dangerous situation and rely on shomer pisayim… however, he goes on to say what you quoted. He does not use ??? ???? as a basis for permitting smoking, and now that we have more research we can assume he would have assured it. In fact, the very same teshuva strongly encourages people not to start smoking, for parents and rabbeim to discourage their children and talmidim from starting. However, he does not say, as you imply that it is categorically assur to smoke. In fact, in another teshuva he writes that one is is machmir (am pretty sure it is the word he used – but need to double check) not to smoke does not violate lifnei iver by providing a cigarette to someone who does. Again, this does not mean he approved of smoking, far from it. For accuracy sake though, it is not a good habit to misquote poskim, no matter how worthy the cause.

    #1179070
    Health
    Participant

    APY -“He does not use ??? ???? as a basis for permitting smoking, and now that we have more research we can assume he would have assured it.”

    Actually he does. It’s a 2 step process. First he says Chashah, then Shomer etc.

    So if it’s not ????, then there is No Heter!

    That’s directly from R’ Moshe. Stop denying what he wrote!

    You’re doing all this to say – you’re Never Wrong!

    You’re wrong and just admit it!

    #1179071
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Stop denying what he wrote!”

    OK, I admit, you are wrong.

    You completely misunderstood his teshuva and why he mentions the sevara of chashash rachuk and its relationship to his comment shomer pesayim Hashem.

    I freely admit, you have thoroughly confused me. Are you saying that Rav Moshe z’l wrote in his teshuva that smoking is an absolute issur? Are you now saying that chashash rachuk is now a heter that he is proposing to allow one to smoke? if not, please clarify this line “So if it’s not ????, then there is No Heter!”. What heter?

    Did you or did you not put Rav Moshe on a list of those poskim who rule smoking is an absolute issur?

    #1179072
    Sparkly
    Member

    Meno – and there are many tv watchers who are more religious than people who smoke. The mods make the subtitiles.

    #1179073
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Agreed. I never said otherwise.

    #1179074
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “The definition of addiction is that someone goes through withdrawal when it’s removed. No one suffers television or movie withdrawal. “

    sam – I would be really surprised if that is accurate information

    #1179075
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    why not ask the mod who gave you your subtitle.

    #1179076
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    Why not marry a guy with a PhD in the sciences? They’re obviously going to be mumche in math and science.

    That’s why I think you’re looking to be a gold digger.

    #1179077
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Syag I beleive it’s a waste of time to argue with sparkly’s strong opinion over here. If I wanted her to see my side I think I’d need to sit down with her and have a long long long conversation.

    Sparkly: there are many killers that are frummer than people who “pretend” they are frum. C’mon, there’s a type of everything for everything out there.

    People if you don’t believe in media or other addictions you have not seen anyone with it. People who ditch school, hang out with boys, just to watch bad movies. People who have run away from home, spent all their money on a smartphone, and is living in the streets wherever there is free wifi, a charging port, and finding money every day for food.

    You have not seen the people who have divorced, thrown off the yoke of Judiasm, destroyed their neshoma, attempted suicide multiple times when their inapropriate movies were taken away.

    IF not living without _____ brings you to the point where you want to commit suicide and cannot go through your day at all, or even wake up means YOU ARE ADDICTIED.

    Syag: she isn’t a troll, just a misguided girl who honestly sees no other side than her opinion.

    #1179078
    Sparkly
    Member

    dovrosenbaum – usually frum people dont get phd in biology or chemistry or physics. maybe you know a frum guy who has a phd in science?

    #1179079
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    hey, in all fairness while i did comment on her style and question her credibility i never called her a troll. I just pointed out that the mods had suggested it…

    #1179080
    Sam2
    Participant

    Syag: Quoting DSM-IV

    Addiction (termed substance dependence by the American Psychiatric Association) is

    defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment

    or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring any time in the same

    12-month period:

    1. Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:

    (a) A need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or

    the desired effect

    or

    (b) Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance.

    2. Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:

    (a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance

    or

    (b) The same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal

    symptoms.

    3. The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than intended.

    4. There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use.

    5. A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (such as

    visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (for example,

    chain-smoking), or recover from its effects.

    6. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because

    of substance use.

    7. The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent physical or

    psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the

    substance (for example, current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced

    depression or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by

    alcohol consumption).

    DSM V no longer identifies addiction as a whole and instead subsumes it under individual dependencies, to allow for more nuances use of these criteria, depending on which are more relevant to which dependencies. However, it would be rare for a diagnosis for any three that do not include either tolerance or withdrawal (I have this on record from several leading psychiatrists).

    One recent study posited that television addiction may exist, but it was not conclusive and called for further study. Television addiction is not recognized under DSM V.

    #1179081
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oh sam, the DSM iv is just so yesterday! and the DSM 5 had to remove tv addiction because nobody has a tv anymore. they just watch tv on their computers.

    seriously tho, i will have to mull that info over for a bit. having read every dr. twerski book around and having spent 3 months in psych hospitals (staff, not inpatient) and working with people fighting certain addictions i believe it does not match with what i have been taught/been told/learned “on the ground”. (But if it isn’t in print how valid can it really be anyway? Or was that a different thread?)

    #1179082
    Sparkly
    Member

    Syag Lchochma – are you becoming a psychologist?

    #1179083
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i don’t want to give away any private information but i am actually a very very prominent psychologist who has authored many books and has my name up all over the place. All of you here in the CR are just fortunate to get my free advice, which thousands of others pay hefty hourly fees for.

    #1179084
    Sparkly
    Member

    Syag Lchochma – which books? or you dont want us to read your books? maybe your trolling? maybe you arent that famous just claiming that you are?

    #1179085
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    why should you read the books when i am here for free? besides, i am just too modest. I dont want to intimidate anyone when they find out my true identity

    #1179086
    Sparkly
    Member

    Syag Lchochma – thats not called being modest thats called trolling.

    #1179087
    I. M. Shluffin
    Participant

    We thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your generosity, Syag.

    #1179088
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    that’s not nice, to call me a troll. i think the cr has rules about that!

    thank you I.M., just yell if you need me. i might be with a patient but ill squeeze you in

    🙂

    #1179089
    Sparkly
    Member

    Syag Lchochma – how do i know that your really a psychologist and not trolling? i dont know you….. as a psychologist you should realize thats why im calling you a troll…

    #1179090
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Anyone else want to second my petition to admit Trolling Paranoia Disorder (TPD) to the DSM-6?

    For the record Sparkly, this is going to sound pathetic, but I was accused of being a troll on my very first CR post and I was really hurt by it. It took me a few days to regroup and try to see it from the perspective of the accuser, and feel sympathy for this person. Thank G-d I didn’t let it stop me from contributing to the CR.

    Generally speaking:

    Are we not supposed to judge each other favorably?

    Isn’t the point here to address the validity of the arguments and expand our understanding, rather than rip down the person behind the perspective?

    Thank you

    #1179091
    Sparkly
    Member

    lightbrite – everyone calls each other trolls. i think the crw has abused that word.

    #1179092
    Health
    Participant

    APY -“Are you saying that Rav Moshe z’l wrote in his teshuva that smoking is an absolute issur?”

    Yes.

    “Are you now saying that chashash rachuk is now a heter that he is proposing to allow one to smoke? if not, please clarify this line “So if it’s not ????, then there is No Heter!”. What heter?

    “Did you or did you not put Rav Moshe on a list of those poskim who rule smoking is an absolute issur?”

    Not me, s/o else did!

    #1179093
    Sam2
    Participant

    Also, even if television addiction exists, the comparison to drugs or smoking is stupid and incorrect. Anything can become addictive to certain people. For various reasons, certain people can go through withdrawal symptoms for the tiniest and most random things. There are documented cases of people going through withdrawal after staying away from tanning booths, chewing ice, getting tattoos, and there is even a case of a woman suffering withdrawal after she stopped eating the cremated remains of dead relatives. These things come from a certain predispositions and a billion-to-one confluence of circumstances. So the fact that there have been cases of someone being addicted to television does not make television addictive any more than chewing on an ice cube is addictive. Smoking and drugs have addictive qualities. They mess with the body and the brain in a way that makes the body and/or brain need to have more in the future. That is what makes them addictive. Television is not addictive. And neither are ice cubes.

    #1179094
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Syag, Sam, Shopping613, lightbrite and several others, your only error has been to engage with a poster who seems to have no other recourse but to call them trolls and cast ridiculous aspersions. I would wonder if this poster is even aware of the nuanced meaning of the word ‘troll’ in a CR context. I haven’t been on this forum for long, but I would have hoped that this kind of discussion would have been given a wide berth by those who should know better, and I include myself in that. If only there were some way of measuring the number of posters, especially established, informed and erudite ones, who simply glance at this nonsense and move on. Of course, the general discourse is often as interesting and thought-out as ever, but certain posters have been reprehensible at best. This phenomenon perhaps deserves a wider discussion, I’m just unpleasantly surprised at some of the meaningless accusations been thrown around, especially by one quite new poster in particular.

    #1179095
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Syag: good to know there’s a free phsyoclogist on the CR. lol

    #1179096
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Now I will look out for a frum phsycologist that authored tons of books….lol

    #1179097
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Is smoking thee root cause for lung cancer or perhaps air pollution due to frivolous driving is the cause? If you would slow down instead of speeding, beside consuming less gas and creating fewer accidents it would decrease the amount of air pollution. Likewise instead of hopping in the car to go a block or two besides saving gas and time and the environment it is also healthy.

    #1179098
    Sparkly
    Member

    Sam2 – good point.

    #1179099
    Sam2
    Participant

    shopping: I’m curious if you read any of my responses to your TV and movies addiction claim.

    #1179100

    “Is smoking thee root cause for lung cancer or perhaps air pollution due to frivolous driving is the cause? If you would slow down instead of speeding, beside consuming less gas and creating fewer accidents it would decrease the amount of air pollution. Likewise instead of hopping in the car to go a block or two besides saving gas and time and the environment it is also healthy.”

    You are wrong. Because science.

    #1179101
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Health: On Page 2 of this thread/discussion YOU posted:

    Health

    !

    apushatayid -“Can someone cite the teshuva where R’ Moshe says it is ASSUR to smoke?”

    From 4 years ago:

    “The little I know

    is still a lot more than you know.

    To all the disbelieving nicotine addicts:

    Here is a list of poskim who proclaimed smoking as an absolute issur:

    Rav A. L. Shteinman

    Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro

    Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz

    Rav Shmuel Wosner

    Rav Nisim Karelitz

    Rav Y.G. Edelstein

    Rav B.D. Povarsky

    Rav Matisyahu Salomon

    Rav Shimon Bedni

    Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein

    Chofetz Chaim

    Chazon Ish

    Rav Shach

    Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach

    Rav Moshe Sterbuch

    Rav Avigdor Miller

    Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky

    Rav Moshe Feinstein

    Rav Benzion Abba Shaul

    This a partial list. Each and every name here can be verified with specific reference.

    Do you mean there are two users named “Health”?

    #1179102
    Health
    Participant

    iacisrmma -“Do you mean there are two users named “Health”?”

    Sorry, just me from a few years ago.

    Does this mean that you won’t find me a Shidduch?!?

    #1179103
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Yes.”

    You are wrong.

    #1179104
    Health
    Participant

    APY -“You are wrong.”

    Why? Cause you say so?

    Call up R’ Revain and ask him what his father held if it wasn’t

    a ??? ???? to get sick because of smoking?

    Then come back here & inform us!

    #1179105
    Sparkly
    Member

    jewishfeminist02 – its about a 25 minute drive so it is time consuming. i left after my neighbor did from the same class and drove MUCH faster than she did and got home right before she did (i left like a minute or 2 after she did) and so i saved time!

    #1179106
    Abba_S
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 “You are wrong. Because science.” I am not sure why I am wrong but how does science answer this question. Please explain if your going 70 MPH you are going 103 feet per second and if you have to make a short stop you can’t stop in time.

    Science is anti religion so bring a proof from science is not really a proof. Science can be used for example to say someone committed a crime because it can be shown to be accurate beyond a reasonable doubt while with lung cancer it’s statistics and or actuarial tables.

    #1179107
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Why? Cause you say so?”

    No, because you are wrong. Because nowhere in the Igros Moshe does it say what you claim again and again it says.

    “Call up R’ Revain and ask him what his father held if it wasn’t

    a ??? ???? to get sick because of smoking?”

    I have no reason to call Rav Reuvain and waste his time because you misunderstand soemething written in the Igros Moshe.

    Why dont you call him and ask him to explain the teshuva for you.

    Even in his second teshuva written in 1981 (the 1st was written in 1964 several months after the first surgeons general warning about smoking) R’ Moshe held one should not start smoking and in fact held it is assur to get addicted, but as far as saying smoking was outright assur he never wrote such a thing. I am very well aware that the sefer Vidibarta Bam (piskei Rav Dovid Feinstien shlita) quotes R’ David as saying that had his father been alive today (I dont know what year “today” refers to) he surely would have assured it. However, that is not an excuse to say that Rav Moshe z’l ruled it an absolute issur to smoke, when in fact he did not. If anyone should admit they are wrong for making claims about what R’ moshe wrote in the Igros it is you. Clearly, you have no intention to. I dont expect you to. This is the last I will write on this matter. (This is an open invitation to let you have the last word)

    #1179108
    Sparkly
    Member

    Abba_S – how is science anti religion? how many science classes have you taken to say such a thing?

    #1179109
    Health
    Participant

    APY -“In fact, the very same teshuva strongly encourages people not to start smoking, for parents and rabbeim to discourage their children and talmidim from starting. However, he does not say, as you imply that it is categorically assur to smoke. In fact, in another teshuva he writes that one is is machmir (am pretty sure it is the word he used – but need to double check) not to smoke does not violate lifnei iver by providing a cigarette to someone who does.

    I freely admit, you have thoroughly confused me. Are you saying that Rav Moshe z’l wrote in his teshuva that smoking is an absolute issur?

    Did you or did you not put Rav Moshe on a list of those poskim who rule smoking is an absolute issur?”

    I just quoted what you wrote on top.

    Now this is your last quote:

    “R’ Moshe held one should not start smoking and in fact held it is assur to get addicted, but as far as saying smoking was outright assur he never wrote such a thing.”

    Your posts are full of hypocrisy!

    R’ Moshe never differentiated between getting addicted and smoking!

    I never meant if you smoke one cig. you’re Oiver an Issur!

    I was talking about s/o who’s addicted to smoking!

    Now is your chance to correct all your posts!

    #1179110
    Lefty SoferStam
    Participant

    Sparky to believe in science is kferah but to learn it to see the miracles of Hashem then that’s fine.

    #1179111
    Sparkly
    Member

    Lefty SoferStam – yes but im hoping people learn it to see Hashems miracles.

    #1179112
    Sam2
    Participant

    LSS: “Believe in science”? What does that even mean? “Science” is not a system of beliefs. It’s a study of the world as we see it. It’s Kefirah to study how things work?

    #1179113
    Sparkly
    Member

    sam2 – how many science classes have you taken?

    #1179114
    Meno
    Participant

    I’ve taken over 20 science classes and I agree with Sam2

    #1179115
    Sparkly
    Member

    Meno – what kind of engineer are you? you probably mostly took physics and math and some biology and chem classes?

    #1179116
    apushatayid
    Participant

    You never meant…

    Say what you mean and mean what you say.

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