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I have a comment that I would like to make but I know that it will be deleted or the thread will be closed rather quickly. It is not an inappropriate comment, it is more of a controversial comment since we are all trying to hide out from the truth of the matter. I wish there was a way that I could get this important point across without upsetting the mods!!
If you post it at least the mods will see the message. Or whichever one deletes it anyways 🙂 95
Do the mods ever consult each other if they are unsure whether or not to edit or delete a post or a thread? Just wondering.
Personally, I believe comments should be allowed to go through, unless foul language is used. Most of us are adults, and unless one is bashing someone, we can learn to dialogue in a mature, adult way. JMO.
If you need to make a comment then you should try. If it is inappropriate it won’t get through. If it is written inappropriately but the topic is appropriate the MODS might edit it.
Happiest, I agree with you 100%.
i think the problem here is that internet users of ALL ages can access this website. perhaps YW should post a disclaimer and an ENTER button that one must click before getting into the coffee room.
Mewho
You sound like you are from the group that wants it covered up. The kids are the targets! Maybe someone should tell them?!
Happiest
I agree with you 100% as well. It is rampant and it is covered up and very little is being done about it. The only thing left is for parents to educate their kids I don’t care how old they are a 3 year old is old enough to understand. You explain in simple terms not to go ANYWHERE secluded with ANYONE, even if hes frum and even if he looks like a Rebbe…not into a car not into a room…and that nobody has a right to touch them in places “private places” and if someone tries to then make sure to tell Totty/Daddy and Mommy about it immediately no matter what the man…said.
i dont want anything covered up. i am jsut stating that since some have mentioned that there are minors in this room perhaps the room owner is liable for room content. which is why i suggest some sort of disclaimer.
i have periodically posted that people here who have problems should seek real help outside of this room and i belive in that 100%
I personally think you should publish everything that is NOT ANTISEMITIC. If someone writes a wicked or evil word, the light of our nation can be expressed in writing to canel and scatter the evil of that persons writing. So if someone might say something that you do not agree with as a orthodox leaning jew, let it be written and then you write your reply.
As is written in our prayer books “speak your word and it will not stand”, “plan a conspiracy and it will be annulled”. There is nothing to fear except of course G-d.
happiest: Bravo to you for researching and posting this topic. Abuse ruins many lives and we cannot afford to lose one Jewish soul. It seems to be an idea from my Baba’s time that we must not report anything illegal done by a fellow Jew. In those days, things were whispered although most of the time, they were completely hushed up. Nothing bad was talked about – I remember when the diagnosis of cancer was whispered about and then, it was only referred to as “C”. We are in the 21st century and we must teach our children to be careful and what to do if they feel that they have been violated – in any fashion. Better to over-report than under-report or not report at all.
basket of radishes: I also agree with you that everything that isn’t antisemitic should be published. We have a lot to learn from each other, regardless of our Jewish background and type of Judaism that we practice (or don’t practice). I, for one, would love to hear from some non-practicing Jews and find out why they feel as they do. I would particularly love to hear from formerly frum Jews and find out why they chose the path they did.
Unfortunately, in today’s corrupt society, everything is covered up for a fear of “stigma”. Mental illness, abuse, etc. The problem is that these things can sometimes be prevented and when everyone’s hiding it, nobody can help. Children should be warned about it in a delicate manner. And additionally, the people who are struck by one of these hidden things end up suffering alone because they can’t reveal their true pain. It is a tremendous problem that people are simply in DENIAL of or just too ashamed to admit that it exists.
And for all those of you who think there are too many minors here-(Out of curiousity) how old do you consider minors?
Sometimes it takes openess to solve a problem.
Some people need to be embarassed. It is not the crime that is anti-semetic, its the coverup. If a crime is committed and the perpetrator is punished, I think most people do not blame anyone but the person, but once the perpetrator is protected in some way then people have a totally different opinion.
If a company saying they are kosher produces non-kosher chicken marked as kosher every rabbi of every shul in that community would announce it in Shul not to eat from that supplier
It should be the same for other trayfus
I think Rabbi Yakov Horowitz had a video recently about speaking to children. (I think its on his site)
happiest, agree with you.
Happiest, make that three who agree. it is the cover up that is shameful, not the talking about it.
Someone above claimed abuse is rampant in the Jewish community and it is covered up. She offered no evidence whatsoever to backup this assertion. I will emphatically state it occurs exceedingly rarely. If anyone offers proof otherwise I will then counter their data with my own.
That being said, I do agree that even one case is one case too many.
Shlishi-whether it happens rarely or not, it is covered up. Even one case is too many. (and if you were referring to me specifically, I didn’t not use the word rampant even once in my post so there;/)
Rabbi Horowitz did do a video on this topic recently, and, though I only watched part of it, it seems to be excellent.
I dont belive its rampant in the frum community, like it was in the other religion
It could be that one person is doing it to more than one person so it seems there are more victims.
That is where the coverup is the problem. These people need to be outed and punished severly.
If I ever found out my daughters were victims, I would go to the authorities ASAP. Moser or not and If I had to move so be it.
what is meant by abuse?
spanking?
losing your temper?
hitting?
molestation?
saying no too often?
what did each of these doctors mean by “abuse”
recently a woman was arrested and her children taken away because she spanked one of them, normal spanking, not severe, with her open hand.
how are they defining frum community?
this is not a simple thing to determine.
i dont know how you come to know a dozen abuse victims
i believe it is NOT rampant in my community.
far from it.
it is exceptional
can i prove this?
no
you probably think i just am not seeing below the surface.
could be
but i do not think so.
happiest: I agree with you that there’s more abuse than people care to admit or pick up on.
“if the at risk teens situation is so rampant and many many many of these teens had some type of abuse experience (which is why they are at risk) then this problem also has to be rampant, no?”
I don’t entirely agree with this statement, though. EVERYBODY has hardship. On different levels of course. But nobody lives the perfect little life. If I’d need an excuse to go off, I could easily say my father/mother is abusive. Why? Because they’re not perfect. And we expect our parents to be perfect. Yes, they might have accused me falsely for doing something wrong, or yell, or…even spank me (when I was younger of course). The point being, that these kids have issues either emotional or spiritual. The parents aren’t necessarily abusive just because the kids say so. They love blaming the parents, teachers, principals etc. – Anyone but themselves!
OTOH, unfortunately, there ARE some kids who suffer at home and leave Yiddishkeit because of that. Which is terribly sad. But I think that if anybody is earnest and really looks for the truth they’ll find it.
what kind of abuse?
mental?
physical?
emotional?
Many things are just as common in the Jewish community as in the general community at large – they are just not spoken of or covered up. Drug addiction and alcoholism are very common, but you don’t often hear of it. I remember at least 20 years ago during the sermon on Yom Kippur, the Rabbi was talking about just this topic and then in a loud voice (I actually almost levitated from my seat) he said “I am sick and tired of visiting my congregants in the hospital who are there for alcoholism – the statistics would shock you.” So, why should the incidence of child abuse be any different?
observanteen-I’m not directing this against u just in general about what you were saying. I want to say about OTD teens: nobody can judge them!!! You don’t and can’t and never will understand until you’re in their situation!!! Nobody can understand the excruciating pain they are in!!!! they don’t want to be where they are! they wish they can do what’s good and they can’t! No, I’m not excusing it but I feel that people tend to undermine the pain of these teens and pity their family more than they deserve! I was there and can tell you -IT ISN’T FUN! Don’t judge. Again, this is not at anyone specifically! just my rant 🙂
Happiest, I am so sorry this happened to you. No wonder you are going through such trauma now and need all these meds. Please continue to work through your issues with competent therapists. I understand where you are coming from. I work with victims and do my best to advocate for them. As a matter of fact I started an organization years back for this very purpose.
For anyone who does not believe the severity of this situation it is because you choose NOT to believe it. Please take your heads out of the sand and understand the truth. That is the only way to stop it. And please understand the reason why R’ Eliyashuv said a molester is a rodef and should be reported to the authorities. A molester does not stop after one attack nor after one victim. On the average a molester will attack 440 times (these are the statistics) in their lifespan. That could be one victim 440 times or up to 440 different victims. If you turn the molester in at the beginning of his career, look how many potential victims you save. However if you cover up for him and protect him, look how many victims you COULD have saved.
Happiest,
To repeat what others have said, even one case is one too many.
If there are indeed hundreds of cases (and the experts seemed to imply that it’s B”H not thousands), that’s hundreds too many.
However, “rampant” shouldn’t be defined by numbers, it makes more sense to be defined by percentages.
You indicated that you know a dozen or more victims (whom you met after you “started figuring things out for yourself”). This makes sense – people tend to seek out and find others with similar issues and experiences, but it’s not an indication of how widespread the problem is or isn’t.
I don’t think loshon hara or motzi shem ra on our entire community is justified, or even needed. I still agree, of course, that every reasonable step has to be taken to prevent even one more case from chas v’shalom occurring, no matter how rampant it is or isn’t.
its so frustrating to me when I try rereading a thread and some of the posts got removed. gets very confusing.
(I hope this thread is still about this topic- they seem to take on a new life sometimes and I did not read the previous threads)
Mischief: I don’t really have the time right now to debate this issue, but I’d like to make one point clear:
I WAS THERE. I KNOW what it’s like to feel torn, messed up, confused, depressed…I know. And yes, I KNOW and remember and sometimes cry about how difficult and crazy it was. But, nevertheless, it was I who was confused. My parents didn’t do that. I too, played the blame game. I blamed them for ignoring the fact that I was messed up (I never told them anything, of course, but expected them to read my mind), I blamed my teachers for being too shallow…And then I realized that it’s time I look myself in the mirror and say, “You will make some BIG changes in your life right now, because it’s YOU who’s responsible for yourself!” The blaming DOESN’T HELP! It only makes you drown in a sea of self-pity. It was when I hit rock bottom that I shouted to myself, “ENOUGH!!” And guess what?? My anxiety, confusion, problems with Emuna DISSAPPEARED. Baruch Hashem, I’m stable now and truly “observant” and feel prepared to begin building a bayis neeman beyisroel in the near future IY”H (something that seemed impossible a few months ago.)
I wish you and all suffering teens much hatzlacha and siyatta dishmaya.
happiest, I wouldn’t call it loshon hara. I know too many people who have suffered from one form of abuse or another. Topics like this will hopefully maker them feel validated, not guilty, and will bring them to the awareness that they are not alone in their struggle. Abuse will not be tolerated. To limit loshon hara, posters should be careful before conveying personal stories, if it possible to identify any of the people involved. Make sure to say only what is l’toeles, because what you say can be seen by anyone…
I truly wish it could be explained to me why there is a cover up.
It is not Loshon Hora, If there is a teacher who is accused of this, I would want to know to keep my kids away from them.
If a yeshiva insits on hiring such a person, I want to know not to send my kids there and not to send them any money.
Zahavasdad, the problem is you can never be certain of the veracity of the story. You can’t believe everything you hear. Even a misleading word, is pure loshon hara (or motzei sheim ra). For everything you say, there will be a din v’cheshbon . All you can do sometimes is be careful.
please don’t just assume that this is not a problem in our society/community because it is a MAJOR one!!!
Did anyone here claim that it’s not a problem? The only debate here is how “rampant” the problem is.
The pain that anyone who has experienced this horror has suffered, should be enough for we as a community to take action, without having to resort to claiming that it is a very frequent occurence. I frankly don’t know how often it does or doesn’t occur (I haven’t seen any statistics), but it almost minimizes how bad it is, when people feel the need to claim that it’s common rather than an aberration.
And although discussing that there is a problem is not loshon hara, I believe that making it seem like it’s widespread is loshon hara on our entire community, and if it’s not as widespread as being claimed, it’s motzi shem ra. Again – I don’t mean discussing it per se, but discussing it as a frequent occurrence.
observanteen-yeah I guess you were also there but you seem to have a very different experience. I was very depressed and still am. I won’t say e/t cuz ppl here know me but I’ll just say that its not always the teens fault! I had a lot of issues that I’m dealing w/ now that caused it. Also, it came a lot from my surroundings (wont go into it)It was my way of crying out for help. I’m glad you’re fine now-dunno how u did it cuz as soon as I was back on track I got severely depressed (which I was the whole time just didn’t rly come out so much) and now I have an ED too. These things don’t come from nothing. No, its not a blame game but I’m saying that MANY times there is an external cause to it.
And to those who think this topic is L”H you are wrong! I asked a rav and he said it is NOT! For some reason when it comes to this ppl think its L”H but talking bout ur neighbor isn’t. This is an important topic that needs to be brought to the surface because ppl are in DENIAL and it can be prevented!
If it’s so rampant, how come none of my kids was ever molested (b”H)? It’s not that they’re naive; I tell them every so often to stay away from strangers even if they have a long beard etc. and to tell right away if anyone touches them or tries to tell them “secrets” etc. Of all my siblings, only one brother had a sub who took boys on his lap with non too holy intentions. Of all my aquaintances who would confide in me, only two were actively molested. Both victims come from dysfunctional/broken homes, and both perps belong to the same chassidus which shall remain unnamed here but is known more for instilling Yiras Harebbe than Yiras Shomayim.
Yes, it happens, but far, far less often than in the outside world. And I’ll bet my bottom $ that the more TV, videos, shmutzy books, magazines, newspapers, the more molestation. And don’t give me that BS about shikrus among frum yidden being as prevalent as among goyim. Dr. Kelleman proves with statistics that even secular Jews are far less likely to be alcoholics than non-Jews – up to the third generation!
Those who see abuse and addictions everywhere are just as delusional as those who see it nowhere.
I dont know how many are victims, but lets say One tenth of 1% which seems like a small number.
If there are 500,000 jews in NYC area. One Tenth of 1% is 500 people which is 500 too many
Even one is too many, but to say it’s as bad as by others is false, stupid, narrow-minded, self-righteous, self-hating, and just plain disgusting. Plus it plays right into the hands of our enemies. I’ve seen such nonsense quoted by secular writers who accept it as gospel since they heard it from “insiders”.
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