- This topic has 93 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 10 months ago by Droid.
July 3, 2011 1:57 am at 1:57 am #597753
I have a comment that I would like to make but I know that it will be deleted or the thread will be closed rather quickly. It is not an inappropriate comment, it is more of a controversial comment since we are all trying to hide out from the truth of the matter. I wish there was a way that I could get this important point across without upsetting the mods!!
If you post it at least the mods will see the message. Or whichever one deletes it anyways 🙂 95July 3, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #786287
Do the mods ever consult each other if they are unsure whether or not to edit or delete a post or a thread? Just wondering.July 3, 2011 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #786288oomisParticipant
Personally, I believe comments should be allowed to go through, unless foul language is used. Most of us are adults, and unless one is bashing someone, we can learn to dialogue in a mature, adult way. JMO.July 4, 2011 3:59 am at 3:59 am #786289
If you need to make a comment then you should try. If it is inappropriate it won’t get through. If it is written inappropriately but the topic is appropriate the MODS might edit it.July 4, 2011 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #786290
Ok… here goes nothing.
It’s related to the topic of the dreaded “A” word- abuse.
It was said in the coffee room that it is not rampant and that it is not such a major issue in the frum community.
Here are my feelings on the topic.
It is rampant but it is covered up. But even if it wasn’t rampant even ONE case of it is a horrible thing especially since we are looked at as a nation even more closely than any other nation in the world.
Here is a quote from a Rabbi and a Dr that I contacted since I was very bothered about the fact that people think that it isn’t such a big deal in our communities-
“It is rampant. It is covered up. Even one case is one too many. We and the rest of the world hold ourselves to a higher moral standard. The Jewish community is on the verge of a “Priest Scandal, which the media will love to expose widely. We need to shape up and do it quickly before even one more neshoma is destroyed. My humble opinion and observations.”
Mods, I understand if you don’t let this through but it would really mean a lot to me if it was. You can close the topic afterwards if you’d like. I just really want my comments to be heard for once and for all. Thanks;)
For you, anything 🙂July 4, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #786291
Happiest, I agree with you 100%.July 4, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #786292mewhoParticipant
i think the problem here is that internet users of ALL ages can access this website. perhaps YW should post a disclaimer and an ENTER button that one must click before getting into the coffee room.July 4, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #786293
Thank you whichever mod let this through!!!!
And aries- thanks for agreeing. Finally, someone does!July 4, 2011 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #786294WIYMember
You sound like you are from the group that wants it covered up. The kids are the targets! Maybe someone should tell them?!
I agree with you 100% as well. It is rampant and it is covered up and very little is being done about it. The only thing left is for parents to educate their kids I don’t care how old they are a 3 year old is old enough to understand. You explain in simple terms not to go ANYWHERE secluded with ANYONE, even if hes frum and even if he looks like a Rebbe…not into a car not into a room…and that nobody has a right to touch them in places “private places” and if someone tries to then make sure to tell Totty/Daddy and Mommy about it immediately no matter what the man…said.July 4, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #786295
WIY- you are right. We definitely should give children ‘the talk’ but it should also somehow be brought up that if a family member is doing it they shouldn’t be emb to tell an adult. It is not their fault and they should not have to suffer alone!! I know so many lives that have been damaged (for good?) because of this. It hurts me to think about:(July 4, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #786296mewhoParticipant
i dont want anything covered up. i am jsut stating that since some have mentioned that there are minors in this room perhaps the room owner is liable for room content. which is why i suggest some sort of disclaimer.
i have periodically posted that people here who have problems should seek real help outside of this room and i belive in that 100%July 4, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #786297basket of radishesParticipant
I personally think you should publish everything that is NOT ANTISEMITIC. If someone writes a wicked or evil word, the light of our nation can be expressed in writing to canel and scatter the evil of that persons writing. So if someone might say something that you do not agree with as a orthodox leaning jew, let it be written and then you write your reply.
As is written in our prayer books “speak your word and it will not stand”, “plan a conspiracy and it will be annulled”. There is nothing to fear except of course G-d.July 4, 2011 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #786298
happiest: Bravo to you for researching and posting this topic. Abuse ruins many lives and we cannot afford to lose one Jewish soul. It seems to be an idea from my Baba’s time that we must not report anything illegal done by a fellow Jew. In those days, things were whispered although most of the time, they were completely hushed up. Nothing bad was talked about – I remember when the diagnosis of cancer was whispered about and then, it was only referred to as “C”. We are in the 21st century and we must teach our children to be careful and what to do if they feel that they have been violated – in any fashion. Better to over-report than under-report or not report at all.
basket of radishes: I also agree with you that everything that isn’t antisemitic should be published. We have a lot to learn from each other, regardless of our Jewish background and type of Judaism that we practice (or don’t practice). I, for one, would love to hear from some non-practicing Jews and find out why they feel as they do. I would particularly love to hear from formerly frum Jews and find out why they chose the path they did.July 4, 2011 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #786299
Unfortunately, in today’s corrupt society, everything is covered up for a fear of “stigma”. Mental illness, abuse, etc. The problem is that these things can sometimes be prevented and when everyone’s hiding it, nobody can help. Children should be warned about it in a delicate manner. And additionally, the people who are struck by one of these hidden things end up suffering alone because they can’t reveal their true pain. It is a tremendous problem that people are simply in DENIAL of or just too ashamed to admit that it exists.
And for all those of you who think there are too many minors here-(Out of curiousity) how old do you consider minors?July 4, 2011 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #786300
Sometimes it takes openess to solve a problem.
Some people need to be embarassed. It is not the crime that is anti-semetic, its the coverup. If a crime is committed and the perpetrator is punished, I think most people do not blame anyone but the person, but once the perpetrator is protected in some way then people have a totally different opinion.July 4, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #786301
If a company saying they are kosher produces non-kosher chicken marked as kosher every rabbi of every shul in that community would announce it in Shul not to eat from that supplier
It should be the same for other trayfusJuly 5, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #786302kapustaParticipant
I think Rabbi Yakov Horowitz had a video recently about speaking to children. (I think its on his site)
happiest, agree with you.July 5, 2011 1:08 am at 1:08 am #786303oomisParticipant
Happiest, make that three who agree. it is the cover up that is shameful, not the talking about it.July 5, 2011 2:06 am at 2:06 am #786304shlishiMember
Someone above claimed abuse is rampant in the Jewish community and it is covered up. She offered no evidence whatsoever to backup this assertion. I will emphatically state it occurs exceedingly rarely. If anyone offers proof otherwise I will then counter their data with my own.
That being said, I do agree that even one case is one case too many.July 5, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #786305
Thank you to all that agree with me. I was so nervous that no one did since someone disagreed with me, I was nervous that all people (or most) were of the same opinion as this person.
Do any of you think there is something that we can do about it? Besides for educating our children?July 5, 2011 4:59 am at 4:59 am #786306
Shlishi-whether it happens rarely or not, it is covered up. Even one case is too many. (and if you were referring to me specifically, I didn’t not use the word rampant even once in my post so there;/)July 5, 2011 5:53 am at 5:53 am #786307HaKatanParticipant
Rabbi Horowitz did do a video on this topic recently, and, though I only watched part of it, it seems to be excellent.July 5, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #786308
shlishi- it is so rampant it’s sick!! I can tell you a list of 10 or 15 girls (girls, not even women yet) who were abused in their lifetime. There is a website started by one of these people for survivors, I will ask her how many people are part of that website as of now. You think it is not rampant because it is not talked about because everyone is afraid to talk about it. Oy, I’m crying that people don’t think it’s rampant. It hurts me sooo much!!!July 5, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #786309
shlishi, I am going to come back to you with #’s so that you can have exact evidence that this is a major issue in the frum communities!!July 5, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #786311
I dont belive its rampant in the frum community, like it was in the other religion
It could be that one person is doing it to more than one person so it seems there are more victims.
That is where the coverup is the problem. These people need to be outed and punished severly.
If I ever found out my daughters were victims, I would go to the authorities ASAP. Moser or not and If I had to move so be it.July 5, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #786312
This is an excerpt from Rabbi Horowitz’s website
“How many children are we talking about? How many abuse victims are there? I posed this question to the three experts mentioned above. Each of them responded by saying that there is no research that they know of in the frum community and they have no hard numbers. But when I asked if they would say that there are a) tens, b) hundreds or c) thousands [of abused children]
The 3 proffesionals that this question was asked to are: Doctors David Pelcovitz, Barry Horowitz, and Bentzion Twersky. All 3 who are prominent Drs in our community! If you’d like more proof, please let me know.July 5, 2011 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #786313YW Moderator-80Member
what is meant by abuse?
losing your temper?
saying no too often?
what did each of these doctors mean by “abuse”
recently a woman was arrested and her children taken away because she spanked one of them, normal spanking, not severe, with her open hand.
how are they defining frum community?
this is not a simple thing to determine.July 5, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #786314YW Moderator-80Member
i dont know how you come to know a dozen abuse victims
i believe it is NOT rampant in my community.
far from it.
it is exceptional
can i prove this?
you probably think i just am not seeing below the surface.
but i do not think so.July 5, 2011 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #786315
Oy!! Nebuch!!! I wasn’t going to say anything but I know so many because I’m a survivor myself. When I started figuring things out for myself I came upon more and more people who went thru the same or similar situations as me. Once your in the situation yourself, you come out of the little hole you’re living in and hear about more and more people who had this same experience.
I used to be very close with this Rabbi who does a lot of work with at risk teens (b”H I’m not). The first time I spoke to him he asked me if I had been hurt in some way during my life- then he corrected himself and took back the question and said I’m assuming it did happen to you. Apparently, it is so so common for him to hear of it in the at risk communities.
Something to think about- if the at risk teens situation is so rampant and many many many of these teens had some type of abuse experience (which is why they are at risk) then this problem also has to be rampant, no?July 5, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #786316observanteenMember
happiest: I agree with you that there’s more abuse than people care to admit or pick up on.
“if the at risk teens situation is so rampant and many many many of these teens had some type of abuse experience (which is why they are at risk) then this problem also has to be rampant, no?”
I don’t entirely agree with this statement, though. EVERYBODY has hardship. On different levels of course. But nobody lives the perfect little life. If I’d need an excuse to go off, I could easily say my father/mother is abusive. Why? Because they’re not perfect. And we expect our parents to be perfect. Yes, they might have accused me falsely for doing something wrong, or yell, or…even spank me (when I was younger of course). The point being, that these kids have issues either emotional or spiritual. The parents aren’t necessarily abusive just because the kids say so. They love blaming the parents, teachers, principals etc. – Anyone but themselves!
OTOH, unfortunately, there ARE some kids who suffer at home and leave Yiddishkeit because of that. Which is terribly sad. But I think that if anybody is earnest and really looks for the truth they’ll find it.July 6, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #786317
I’m not saying that all of these at risk teens were abused but many of them were and if we’re at the point where we’re going to say that some of them make it up so we’re not going to believe any of them then that can be very detrimental to those who really were. observanteen- I’m not saying you are at this point I’m just saying that in general.
Also, I’m having a hard time figuring out how to write it but if according to this rabbi of mine many of the at risk teens have gone off because they were abused and the at risk community is so large, doesn’t this prove that the abuse “issue” (hate using that word for it) is more rampant then most want to believe? Don’t know if I’m making sense here. It’s pretty clear in my mind what I’m trying to say but hard to write in words…July 6, 2011 12:38 am at 12:38 am #786318mom12Participant
what kind of abuse?
emotional?July 6, 2011 12:57 am at 12:57 am #786319
Any kin.d of abuse is horrible but what I’m specifically talking about right now is physical/molestation.July 6, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #786320
Many things are just as common in the Jewish community as in the general community at large – they are just not spoken of or covered up. Drug addiction and alcoholism are very common, but you don’t often hear of it. I remember at least 20 years ago during the sermon on Yom Kippur, the Rabbi was talking about just this topic and then in a loud voice (I actually almost levitated from my seat) he said “I am sick and tired of visiting my congregants in the hospital who are there for alcoholism – the statistics would shock you.” So, why should the incidence of child abuse be any different?July 6, 2011 2:40 am at 2:40 am #786321
observanteen-I’m not directing this against u just in general about what you were saying. I want to say about OTD teens: nobody can judge them!!! You don’t and can’t and never will understand until you’re in their situation!!! Nobody can understand the excruciating pain they are in!!!! they don’t want to be where they are! they wish they can do what’s good and they can’t! No, I’m not excusing it but I feel that people tend to undermine the pain of these teens and pity their family more than they deserve! I was there and can tell you -IT ISN’T FUN! Don’t judge. Again, this is not at anyone specifically! just my rant 🙂July 6, 2011 7:07 am at 7:07 am #786322
Happiest, I am so sorry this happened to you. No wonder you are going through such trauma now and need all these meds. Please continue to work through your issues with competent therapists. I understand where you are coming from. I work with victims and do my best to advocate for them. As a matter of fact I started an organization years back for this very purpose.
For anyone who does not believe the severity of this situation it is because you choose NOT to believe it. Please take your heads out of the sand and understand the truth. That is the only way to stop it. And please understand the reason why R’ Eliyashuv said a molester is a rodef and should be reported to the authorities. A molester does not stop after one attack nor after one victim. On the average a molester will attack 440 times (these are the statistics) in their lifespan. That could be one victim 440 times or up to 440 different victims. If you turn the molester in at the beginning of his career, look how many potential victims you save. However if you cover up for him and protect him, look how many victims you COULD have saved.July 6, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #786324☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
To repeat what others have said, even one case is one too many.
If there are indeed hundreds of cases (and the experts seemed to imply that it’s B”H not thousands), that’s hundreds too many.
However, “rampant” shouldn’t be defined by numbers, it makes more sense to be defined by percentages.
You indicated that you know a dozen or more victims (whom you met after you “started figuring things out for yourself”). This makes sense – people tend to seek out and find others with similar issues and experiences, but it’s not an indication of how widespread the problem is or isn’t.
I don’t think loshon hara or motzi shem ra on our entire community is justified, or even needed. I still agree, of course, that every reasonable step has to be taken to prevent even one more case from chas v’shalom occurring, no matter how rampant it is or isn’t.July 6, 2011 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #786325adorableParticipant
its so frustrating to me when I try rereading a thread and some of the posts got removed. gets very confusing.
(I hope this thread is still about this topic- they seem to take on a new life sometimes and I did not read the previous threads)July 6, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #786326observanteenMember
Mischief: I don’t really have the time right now to debate this issue, but I’d like to make one point clear:
I WAS THERE. I KNOW what it’s like to feel torn, messed up, confused, depressed…I know. And yes, I KNOW and remember and sometimes cry about how difficult and crazy it was. But, nevertheless, it was I who was confused. My parents didn’t do that. I too, played the blame game. I blamed them for ignoring the fact that I was messed up (I never told them anything, of course, but expected them to read my mind), I blamed my teachers for being too shallow…And then I realized that it’s time I look myself in the mirror and say, “You will make some BIG changes in your life right now, because it’s YOU who’s responsible for yourself!” The blaming DOESN’T HELP! It only makes you drown in a sea of self-pity. It was when I hit rock bottom that I shouted to myself, “ENOUGH!!” And guess what?? My anxiety, confusion, problems with Emuna DISSAPPEARED. Baruch Hashem, I’m stable now and truly “observant” and feel prepared to begin building a bayis neeman beyisroel in the near future IY”H (something that seemed impossible a few months ago.)
I wish you and all suffering teens much hatzlacha and siyatta dishmaya.July 6, 2011 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #786328
zahavasdad, THANK YOU!!! I was trying to come up with a nice way of saying something like that but nothing was coming to mind.
I just want all of you to know that before I posted here I discussed it with a rav. I did not want to do anything against halacha. I was told that I am allowed to post (in general, not specifically on ywn) because it is those abusers doing the wrong!!
Again, I feel like whomever is saying that it is loshon hara, think for a second. If c”v it happened to your child or sibling, would you still think that it is loshon hara? Just curious to what people will answer to this…July 6, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #786329
Really strange. Apparently the mods deleted zahavasdad last post because I WAS NOT seeing things and just posting to the wall. You can ignore the first two lines of my last post since they now don’t make sense without her post there although I did think it was a very intelligent remark.July 6, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #786330Another nameParticipant
happiest, I wouldn’t call it loshon hara. I know too many people who have suffered from one form of abuse or another. Topics like this will hopefully maker them feel validated, not guilty, and will bring them to the awareness that they are not alone in their struggle. Abuse will not be tolerated. To limit loshon hara, posters should be careful before conveying personal stories, if it possible to identify any of the people involved. Make sure to say only what is l’toeles, because what you say can be seen by anyone…July 7, 2011 12:35 am at 12:35 am #786331
I truly wish it could be explained to me why there is a cover up.
It is not Loshon Hora, If there is a teacher who is accused of this, I would want to know to keep my kids away from them.
If a yeshiva insits on hiring such a person, I want to know not to send my kids there and not to send them any money.July 7, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #786332Another nameParticipant
Zahavasdad, the problem is you can never be certain of the veracity of the story. You can’t believe everything you hear. Even a misleading word, is pure loshon hara (or motzei sheim ra). For everything you say, there will be a din v’cheshbon . All you can do sometimes is be careful.July 7, 2011 1:17 am at 1:17 am #786333
@aries- I didn’t mean to ignore what you wrote before. You are 100% rt about e/t you said. And I also want to say yaasher koach to you for starting an organization in relation to abuse!!!
Also, mod80. I think you’re being funny. These are well known rabbanim who are not talking about a regular spanking. I know that Rabbi Pelcovitz deals a lot with molestation and abuse related to that. For real, I think that many of you just want to stay naive and living in a little bubble which is fine with me but please don’t just assume that this is not a problem in our society/community because it is a MAJOR one!!!July 7, 2011 4:15 am at 4:15 am #786334☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
please don’t just assume that this is not a problem in our society/community because it is a MAJOR one!!!
Did anyone here claim that it’s not a problem? The only debate here is how “rampant” the problem is.
The pain that anyone who has experienced this horror has suffered, should be enough for we as a community to take action, without having to resort to claiming that it is a very frequent occurence. I frankly don’t know how often it does or doesn’t occur (I haven’t seen any statistics), but it almost minimizes how bad it is, when people feel the need to claim that it’s common rather than an aberration.
And although discussing that there is a problem is not loshon hara, I believe that making it seem like it’s widespread is loshon hara on our entire community, and if it’s not as widespread as being claimed, it’s motzi shem ra. Again – I don’t mean discussing it per se, but discussing it as a frequent occurrence.July 7, 2011 5:53 am at 5:53 am #786335
observanteen-yeah I guess you were also there but you seem to have a very different experience. I was very depressed and still am. I won’t say e/t cuz ppl here know me but I’ll just say that its not always the teens fault! I had a lot of issues that I’m dealing w/ now that caused it. Also, it came a lot from my surroundings (wont go into it)It was my way of crying out for help. I’m glad you’re fine now-dunno how u did it cuz as soon as I was back on track I got severely depressed (which I was the whole time just didn’t rly come out so much) and now I have an ED too. These things don’t come from nothing. No, its not a blame game but I’m saying that MANY times there is an external cause to it.
And to those who think this topic is L”H you are wrong! I asked a rav and he said it is NOT! For some reason when it comes to this ppl think its L”H but talking bout ur neighbor isn’t. This is an important topic that needs to be brought to the surface because ppl are in DENIAL and it can be prevented!July 7, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #786336msseekerMember
If it’s so rampant, how come none of my kids was ever molested (b”H)? It’s not that they’re naive; I tell them every so often to stay away from strangers even if they have a long beard etc. and to tell right away if anyone touches them or tries to tell them “secrets” etc. Of all my siblings, only one brother had a sub who took boys on his lap with non too holy intentions. Of all my aquaintances who would confide in me, only two were actively molested. Both victims come from dysfunctional/broken homes, and both perps belong to the same chassidus which shall remain unnamed here but is known more for instilling Yiras Harebbe than Yiras Shomayim.
Yes, it happens, but far, far less often than in the outside world. And I’ll bet my bottom $ that the more TV, videos, shmutzy books, magazines, newspapers, the more molestation. And don’t give me that BS about shikrus among frum yidden being as prevalent as among goyim. Dr. Kelleman proves with statistics that even secular Jews are far less likely to be alcoholics than non-Jews – up to the third generation!
Those who see abuse and addictions everywhere are just as delusional as those who see it nowhere.July 7, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #786337
I dont know how many are victims, but lets say One tenth of 1% which seems like a small number.
If there are 500,000 jews in NYC area. One Tenth of 1% is 500 people which is 500 too manyJuly 7, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #786338msseekerMember
Even one is too many, but to say it’s as bad as by others is false, stupid, narrow-minded, self-righteous, self-hating, and just plain disgusting. Plus it plays right into the hands of our enemies. I’ve seen such nonsense quoted by secular writers who accept it as gospel since they heard it from “insiders”.
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