Gan Eden & Gehenim

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  • #593117

    TheChevra
    Member

    What is it? Where is it? How is it? How long is it? Is there a minimum or maximum?

    Only those with no experience please reply. All kidding aside, sources based replies please.

    #1097938

    eclipse
    Member

    Gehinnom is…..1.a devastating illness 2.an abusive marriage 3.an addiction one cannot control 4.deep humiliation 5.wondering if Hashem loves you….

    Gan Eden is….1.GOOD HEALTH 2.PEACE IN THE HOME

    3.SELF-CONTROL=SELF-RESPECT 4.ENJOYING A FINE REPUTATION

    5.KNOWING THAT OF COURSE HASHEM LOVES YOU….

    If you wanted to know literally??

    All I know is….the”basement” is HOT.REAL HOT.So…

    #1097939

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Eclipse,

    Are these comparisons brought down somewhere?

    Whats meant by an addiction? A good dish, nail biting, smoking, or something more severe?

    Whats meant by deep humiliation?

    #1097940

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    One is where I’ll be. There are plenty of sources for why I’ll end up there.

    The Wolf

    #1097941

    eclipse
    Member

    Al rishon,rishon…

    1.No.

    2.A drug/alcohol addiction which has progressed to the point that if the person tries to stop, he experiences withdrawal symptoms which drive him crazy…and when he’s at last sober/clean he soon realizes all the many bridges he burned behind him,and feels depressed…I have helped people in both of these matzovim…and let me tell you,their lives are a virtual gehinnom.

    3.A moment or an hour of deep boosha…feels like gehinnom.The longer one feels it,the “hotter” it is….

    #1097942

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s anything we can truly comprehend. Where are they? Do they exist on a physical level, or only on a spiritual level? After all, it’s not your body that goes there, it’s your soul, which isn’t physical. However, there are places that mention a physical part to them (such as the Gemara which mentions the hole in the ground where a thread dipped in was singed and Korach’s children could be heard saying Moshe Emes v’Toraso emes).

    I’ve heard various things about both places. Imagine the best things in this world. When something good happens, you get a great feeling. Everything seems right. Imagine that feeling multiplied a billion times, and lasting for your entire life. It still doesn’t come close to one second of Gan Eden.

    Now imagine the worst things. Times when you feel bad, when things are going wrong. If it were multiplied a billion times for your entire life, it wouldn’t compare to one second in Gehenim.

    #1097943

    chesedname
    Participant

    wolf

    this is the second time i agreed with you recently, wow 🙂

    #1097944

    bpt
    Participant

    I agree Wolf, you are most certainly headed there!

    I was told that Gehenom is a round table, loaded with food, but everyone’s arms are too long to reach their mouth, so they just sit there and starve.

    Gan Eden is the same thing, but each person feeds the person sitting opposite them, so they all enjoy the bounty.

    But Eclipse really nailed it; a person can have gehenom or gan eden right here, right now. And those choices? Boy are they the truth!

    #1097945

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    this is the second time i agreed with you recently, wow 🙂

    I wouldn’t be bragging about agreeing with me. It’s a further sign that I am corrupting you (or anyone else who agrees with me).

    The Wolf

    #1097946

    Bobchka
    Participant

    I have heard R Avigdor Miller Z”L say that Gan Eden and Gehenom is the same place, a bais medresh /shiur without a clock. it all depends on your perspective.

    #1097947

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    Gehenom will be horrifyingly painful boosha we will feel when we get to the next world, and we are forced to sit down in a “theater” with the Beis Din Shel Maalah, and watch a “video” of all the avairos we have done in our lives.

    #1097948

    so right
    Member

    I believe the maximum time in gehenim is 11 months.

    After their time in gehenim (however long it is), the cleansed neshomo goes to Gan Eden.

    #1097949

    bpt
    Participant

    Bobchka – very good post! I never heard that before. How true. (and how scary)

    #1097950

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Eclipse,

    re-Gehenom, wonderling if H’ likes you,

    Doesnt that contradict the idea of ‘Tzaddik Viroh Lo’, or Hakadosh B Hu Misaveh Ltefilos Shel tzadikim’

    Dont Tzadikim get more Nisyonos?

    #1097951

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I believe the maximum time in gehenim is 11 months.

    I don’t believe that to be universally true. There are those who suffer eternally and have no chelek at all in Olam Habah.

    The Wolf

    #1097952

    eclipse
    Member

    Aishes,you are right,it’s not anything to doubt.However,when suffering is intense,and one feels oppressed by tzaros,he may temporarily doubt Hashem’s love for him.The more he REMEMBERS THAT HE IS INDEED LOVED,THE BETTER HE WILL FEEL.

    #1097953

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I believe the maximum time in gehenim is 11 months.

    In fact, now that I think about it, I’m sure it’s not true at all.

    The reason why a person says kaddish for a parent for only 11 months is because the maximum time for a “normal” person is 12 months, not 11. During the last month kaddish is not recited so as to not give the impression that the son thinks his parent was a total rasha.

    That being said, I’m sure that there are those for whom even 12 months is not the maximum. In fact, I know one such person who has no chelek in Olam Habah (which would imply an eternal punishment).

    The Wolf

    #1097954

    so right
    Member

    The Wolf:

    1) What specifically did you do that makes you believe that is your fate?

    2) Why do you believe the above cannot be rectified?

    #1097955

    eclipse
    Member

    Wolf.I’ve often wondered about that.I think certain evil/cruel people really do earn “maximum sentencing”…but do Chazal discuss that anywhere?

    #1097956

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Wolf,

    If a person has no chelek in Olam Haba, it doesn’t necessarily mean eternal hellfire. It might mean that the person rejected his neshama so completely in favor of animalistic physicality, that he only “exists” physically. So death is the end.

    PS – Are you baiting certain people on this list to condemn you? Why?

    #1097957

    Helpful
    Member

    There is also a status where a neshomo can neither enter Gan Eden or even enter Gehenim.

    And there is a situation where a neshomo must return to earth to correct a wrong he had done in his lifetime.

    #1097958

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    PS – Are you baiting certain people on this list to condemn you? Why?

    I don’t need anyone here to condemn me. I’m perfectly capable of doing it on my own. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1097959

    eclipse
    Member

    Who said Wolf meant himself?

    #1097960

    wag the dog
    Member

    The question asks for sources.

    The Ramban wrote a sefer called Toras Hadam and in it he has a chapter (called “shar”, each part is another gate) named Shar Hagimul. In it he goes into great detail about the subjects of gehenom and gan eden and much more.

    He discusses the judgment of Rosh Hashanah, The great day of judgment, the ways of reward and punishment, afflictions of love, Yisurim, Nisayon, Tzadik vra lo, Rasha vtov lo, Eyov and his friends debate, THE ESSENSE OF HELL, the punishment of Kares, THE REWARD OF GAN EDEN AND ITS TIME (when is it now or later…), the times of Moshiach and Olam Habah.

    Warning: parts of it are scary. It also must be studied properly not just read through like a novel. There are a number of commentaries on it which can help. You can pick up a copy at many Judaica stores. I purchased one for 5.50 (barely any commentary though)

    Good luck!

    #1097961

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Wolf, save me a good place.

    #1097962

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Who said Wolf meant himself?

    Thanks, eclipse, but to be fair, I was referring to myself.

    As for why — well there are several reasons. Please note that I don’t want to actually debate any of them here — as this is not the thread for it. Nonetheless:

    According to the Rambam, I am an apikorus because I don’t believe that our sifrei Torah are letter-for-letter the same that Moshe received on Sinai (the gemara that we are not baki in chaseiros/yesiros is proof enough for me) — and according to the Rambam, an apikorus has no chelek in Olam Habah.

    The Rambam also says that a person who calls someone else by a nickname has no chelek in Olam Habah. I routinely use nicknames with my wife and kids — and I don’t regret it.

    R. Miller says that a person who owns a television has no chelek in Olam Habah.

    My high school rosh yeshiva maintained that a person who routinely davens without a hat/jacket, who doesn’t wear the yeshivish levush (i.e. white shirt, dark pants), etc. does not have a chelek in Olam Habah.

    Many authorities have maintained that one who doesn’t believe in the literal interpretation of B’raishis (i.e. someone who is not a Young Earth Creationist) is an apikorus — see above re: apikorsim not having a chelek.

    Quite a few people have maintained that Zionism is Avoda Zara — and according to the Rambam, someone who worships avoda zara has no chelek.

    I’ve read “outside books” (however you want to define that — Apocrypha, portions of the Christian Bible, Stephen King, whatever…) and according to Rabbi Akiva, one who reads such books has no Chelek.

    So, I have plenty of reasons to say that I have no chelek in Olam Habah. I’m never going to believe in YEC, so there’s no point in saying that I should “do teshuva” on that. I don’t regret reading anything I’ve read. I don’t regret my belief that it’s possible (probable?) that today’s Torahs are not letter-perfect copies of Moshe’s. I don’t regret using nicknames for my wife and kids.

    But there is an upside to all of this. The upside is that I get to do the mitzvos without worrying about whether I’ll be rewarded or not. Since I know I have no reward awaiting me, I can simply do the mitzvos and not have to cheshbon “am I doing this solely for the reward or because I truly believe it’s the right thing to do?” If HKBH wants to take the mitzvos I’ve done and throw them away because of my beliefs or things I’ve read, then that’s His business. But at least, at the end of the day, I’ll be able to say that I kept the mitzvos I kept.

    As I said, I don’t want to debate any of this here — this isn’t the thread for it.

    The Wolf

    #1097963

    myfriend
    Member

    HeLeivi: How do you know he is going up first?

    #1097964

    my personal suspicions are that this is wolfs personal brand of something akin to satire, and he does not really think he is going to Gehinnom but is poking fun at those who imply that he is, for believing such logical things and not being like a sheep and being led blindly without thought.

    be that as it may, and wolf will certainly deny my pshat if given a chance, that is the end of this conversation, it doesnt belong here as wolf has said.

    #1097966

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I would not make fun of the Rambam (or R. Miller) or anyone else mentioned above.

    Even if I don’t agree with everything R. Miller (for example) says, I would never make fun of his statements. I am perfectly capable of respectful disagreement.

    The Wolf

    #1097967

    i apologize to wolf by implying that he would poke fun at anyone. this is not something he generally does.

    #1097968

    so right
    Member

    Everyone should learn the scary stuff that is Gehenim, so no one would want to risk ending up there.

    #1097969

    Rabbi Miller, tz’l emphasizes this point

    and implied that for Yidden to se a glimpse into Gehinnom is part of the pshat as to why the Holocaust happened

    #1097970

    eclipse
    Member

    My ex taped me for about 5 years and let many people hear the tapes…that’s a taste of Gehinnom.Trust me,it makes all the stuff we learned about in school good and real.I’m traumatized to this day!

    My only hope is to be spared that boosha in the next world,at least.

    #1097971

    that is truly a taste of Gehinnom in this world

    one accepted pshat of the fires of Ghinnom is that it is busha, severe busha from which there is no relief and of which one never becomes accustomed or hardened.

    #1097972

    eclipse
    Member

    I am so happy you said that,because that means I have a built-in kappara!

    #1097973

    im certain you are right

    #1097974

    aries2756
    Participant

    Eclipse, you have such true insight and clarity.

    #1097975

    eclipse
    Member

    aries,I am flattered,because I actually enjoy YOUR posts for that reason,as I mentioned on another thread this hour.

    #1097977

    so right
    Member

    two peas in a pod.

    #1097978

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Yes, it says specificaly about a Busha that it clears the record better than anything. I just wonder what the ‘eraser’ looks like.

    #1097979

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i apologize to wolf by implying that he would poke fun at anyone. this is not something he generally does.

    No need to apologize to me. I can understand why you might think I was engaging in satire, but in this case I wasn’t. While I do make jokes from time to time, I generally don’t poke fun at people (and certainly not at people like the Rambam!).

    But as I said, I can understand that you would not necessarily realize this. No apology is needed or warranted.

    The Wolf

    #1097980

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I am guessing that Mod80 did not mean that you were satirizing the Rambam or Rav Miller, heaven forbid, but rather posters to an Internet forum whom you perceive are quick to condemn someone they never met.

    I have read statements from religious Zionists that condemn Jews for living outside of Eretz Yisroel when there is a Jewish state in power. They implied that Jews living outside of Eretz Yisroel now are over the mitzvah of settling Eretz Yisroel and would not enjoy living in Eretz Yisroel at the coming of Moshiach. On the other side, as you wrote earlier, are those who condemn anyone who supports the Medina in any way. It seems that no matter who one is, there will always be someone else somewhere in this world condemning him to Gehenim. Even if this person were to uphold every single mitzvah in a way that is pleasing to every single Jew, the religious non-Jews of the world would condemn him still. What’s ultimately important is what Hashem thinks of us, not people.

    I personally think that you are misinterpreting the Rambam (and I have the feeling that you would agree with me), and possibly misapplying the words of Rav Miller, who was trying to warn the kehilla of the dangers of television to our soul, not pointing to specific people and saying, “You sir, Plonie, are bound for Gehenim.” Hashem gave us a conduit to connect to Him and our sages best know that conduit. What Hashem does with us after we die is entirely out of our hands.

    #1097981

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I personally think that you are misinterpreting the Rambam (and I have the feeling that you would agree with me), and possibly misapplying the words of Rav Miller, who was trying to warn the kehilla of the dangers of television to our soul, not pointing to specific people and saying, “You sir, Plonie, are bound for Gehenim.”

    Maybe, maybe not. All I know is that if I ever dare suggest that the Rambam or whoever isn’t meant to be taken literally or may have a different application in today’s world, I manage to generate enough people saying the equaivelant of “the Torah is eternal and always applies the same in every age and how can you say the Rambam (or gadol X) means differently.”

    The Wolf

    #1097982

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And I believe in Spontaneous Evolution. In fact, so spontaneous that it took place in six days.

    #1097983

    WIY
    Member

    eclipse

    Im not so sure how wise it is to discuss the details of what happened in your home that preceded the divorce on a public forum. I am sorry for what you went through and Im sure you still suffer, but I really dont feel that this (or any open internet forum) is the place to let it all out…

    #1097984

    shlomozalman
    Member

    A friend once told me that gehenom is a place where they sing Bai Ana Rachitz over and over again without ever stopping.

    #1097985

    shlomozalman
    Member

    I don’t see the point of arguing over this. Please simply find a few people who were in each place and came back to tell us about it. Ask them, they will tell you.

    #1097986

    Eclipse I want to thank you for sharing. Your post made the whole forum so interesting to read. I dont agree with “WIY” I think he or she should leave it up to the moditor of the room to decide what to write. The only rules here are the ones that yeshiva world news comes up with. I really am shocked at how much senseless critisim there is here. This site is NOT a beis medrash or a lecture. Further more I think the horror of being taped by one’s spouse is a perfect example of a possible atonement in this world. With all do respect to “WIY”, I think you should “let it all out” somewhere else. perhaps you may have more to let out than you realise? Perhaps ask yourself why that comment FOURTY SIX COMMENTS before your comment is the one that bothered you and this is what you thought to comment about? While people are discussing burning in hell, perhaps imagine that they got theirs here already so. G=d is not concerned if they shared something here, that perhaps you dont understand. Are you heartless at times to people with severe marriage problems? I have NO idea however, dont add salt to people’s wounds. No deserves to hear that here. This is an annoymous site.It is NOT PUBLIC. IT is expressing an IDEA NOT A PERSON. It is not loshen horah and was perfectly appropiate, and could have helped someone, who is thinking of doing something so selfish. I personally know people who were taped and or in court, or exposed personal problem is the fires of hell of this world. I understand “WIY” point of view however, part of the reason abuse goes on is because of society rules. This is a forum, not your private shabbas table.

    #1097989

    eclipse
    Member

    thank you,bas melech!

    #1097991

    Lost1970
    Member

    I am a Rasha — I do not think I can avoid Gehinnom. I hope that I can avoid eternal punishment.

    I have many sins against G-d and people.


    When I was one third my age I knew almost nothing about Judaism — I only started reading Tanach. But I had real fear of G-d. In 1985, I was in high school. I remember that seeing any fire or hot object reminded me of what may be in store for me. An experiment in Chemistry where magnesium was burned in a crucible was a sort of spiritual experience for me.

    Having lost the Fear of G-d is a great loss — may be the worst loss since my lost youth.

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