October 6, 2010 1:16 am at 1:16 am #592538
I watch movies and listen to english music (Al Chet.)
Every once in a while I hear that you can be Over Giloy Arayos by watching a movie/ listening to music. How is this possible?
Willing to change…October 6, 2010 4:03 am at 4:03 am #703155Pashuteh YidMember
Sacrilege, not really possible to be over on giluy arayos through those, but there is a problem of hirhur. Also, many movies and songs are not positive Jewish influences, although I would agree that there are some worthy movies and songs that have been made over the years. It is not black and white, but one should carefully think it over. Even in the best movies, often there will be at least a scene or two that are embarrassing and not family fare.October 6, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #703156
Giloy Arayos means revealing nakedness. Theres no shortage of that in rated R or unrated movies. I used to watch movies and listen to non Jewish music as well. Baruch Hashem I did Teshuvah, I must tell you its very rewarding. Its admirable that you are willing to change and I wish you much Hatzlacha in doing so.October 6, 2010 7:42 am at 7:42 am #703157HaKatanParticipant
There’s more to it than giluy arayos.
I think what you refer to comes from the unique lav of lo sikrivu ligalos erva, meaning don’t come close to transgressing this sin, as opposed to others where the Torah simply states to do or not to do something.
One issue, for example, is that music has a unique power and it connects to the soul, so to speak. Therefore, one would obviously not want to hear music that was not made and performed by as pure a neshama as possible.
And an issue that concerns both music and movies is that everything we see or hear has an impact on us. So even if the movie (or song) in question does not have a blatant tznius/arayos problem, it’s essentially impossible that the song/movie’s influence will be 100% in keeping with the Torah’s hashkafa, and, therefore, listening/watching it is not a simple thing. IMHO.October 6, 2010 9:19 am at 9:19 am #703158its_meMember
sacrilege , you seem to have a sincere desire to change. if you go to rabbi amnon yitzchak’s website shofar , you will come away inspired from his campaign against treif music and it will be considerably easier for you to ‘let go’, even in baby steps. i have bh gotten lots of chizuck from him.October 6, 2010 10:01 am at 10:01 am #703159rockerMember
Are you a beis yaakov girl?October 6, 2010 10:24 am at 10:24 am #703160emoticon613Member
i learned that watching a movie can be ‘avizraihu d’arayos’ (actually i think this issue – not with a movie but with ‘sense of sight’ in giluy arayos – is brought in mesillas yesharim, perek yud alef, b’pirtei middas hanikiyus) – with literally means, ‘accessories to arayos’, or things that can lead up to the actual aveira while not being the actual averia itself.
no one’s going to like this very much, but i also learned that ‘avizraihu d’arayos’ are also ‘yehareg v’al ya’avor,’ just as the actual aveira is. my teacher brought that from somewhere else, i don’t remember the source.
sorry…October 6, 2010 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #703161
As a side point, black and white movies really are better than the current stuff, both in quality and for your soul.
Citizen Kane is a mussar shmooze in of itself.October 6, 2010 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #703162
PY – Is hirhur arayos an issur or is it one of those not-such-nice- things-that-you-should-refrain-from?
WIY – Thanks for the words of encouragement! To get a little personal, while I was in HS (Rocker yes, I went to a BY) I became super frum/yeshivish, and gave up everything movies/music/books even while “Yeshivish” it was always a struggle not to watch a movie, what can I say I’m a fan. The music wasnt as big a struggle but once I got out in the real world, and have been out of school for X amount of years inspiration kind of wears off.
Hakatan – “lo sikrivu ligalos erva” This actually makes more sense to me than actual Giluy Arayos. In HS we had a teacher that said that the persons Neshama goes into their music and when you hear it you are effected, in HS I guess I was less jaded and more accepting, I dont really see how that can happen…
emoticon – LOL, yea prob not what I wanted to hear. But it kind of sounds what my father would say. When I was in college we had a case that tied in to Organized Crime and I got on a whole Mafia kick. My father wasnt to pleased that I was bringing home books that he says I was being over on “Giloy Arayos, Shvichas Damim & Avodah Zara in one sitting” I have the best father! 😀
Personally, I dont think a bolt of lightening is going to strike you if you watch the occasional movie (who am I kidding its more than on occasion 😉 ) My bigger problem is that I think the movies are affecting my haskafos, and thats why I think I’m more motivated to stop, or try to.October 6, 2010 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #703163
Is hirhur arayos an issur or is it one of those not-such-nice- things-that-you-should-refrain-from?
Li Nireh, since you are a girl, it is the second. If you were male it would be the first.
My bigger problem is that I think the movies are affecting my haskafos, and thats why I think I’m more motivated to stop, or try to.
Then that is your answer. Acharei L’vavvichem is just as Assur as Acharei Eyneichem.October 6, 2010 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #703164
A hirhur, which is ossur for a woman, is to imagine doing an actual aveira with a man to whom she is an erva. Shulchan Aruch says that it is ossur to read dirty books. Movies are a kol she ken. Hashkofos are also an issue. If there is actual abizrayhu de’gilui arayos involved, I am not sure. It may depend on a number of factors.
Hatslocha rabba!October 6, 2010 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #703165
Gavra, Aharei levavchem is apikorsus. I don’t think this what we are talking about here.October 6, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #703166
You are welcome. That music reflects the neshamah is not so easy to explain. But if you ever watched a singer on a music video youd see that they sing with “heart and soul” and that “treif” feelings backed up by treif words go into you. Music is very powerful. Think about it, one song can make you happy, the next make you sad, another one relaxes you…
I quit movies partly for the same reason you want to. It really effects ones Hashkafos and it dulls ones spiritual sensitivities. Also, its a massive waste of time with no productive purpose. Its pure fantasy and stupidity and I think I am above that. The real purpose of movies is to escape from reality, however the more movies you watch, the more difficult your reality becomes for you because movies make you idealize a fictional fantasy life and world.October 6, 2010 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #703167
“Think about it, one song can make you happy, the next make you sad, another one relaxes you…”
That happens when I listen to Jewish Music as well, I think thats more tempo, than their neshama…
I agree that movies are a waste of time, but when I have nothing to do for 2.5 hours thats kinda what I want to do 😉
mdd – Who is erva for a woman, her brother, father…? I am not a pervert! LOL.October 6, 2010 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #703168
mdd, if we are talking about incorrect/bad hashkafos, then we are.
But I am willing to concede for the sake of Shalom.October 6, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #703169
Gavra, Aharei Levavchem is minus, and there are strict gedorim as to what that is. Period.October 6, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #703170mw13Participant
“Who is erva for a woman, her brother, father…? I am not a pervert! LOL.”
If a woman is not married and hasn’t gone to the mikva, she’s a nidah and an erva to anybody and everybody. And if she is married, she’s an eishes ish and an erva to everybody except her husband.October 6, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #703171oomisParticipant
It is more a sakana for a boy than a girl, because it can lead to physical actions which are totally contrary to Torah. It is bad for a girl because it is just not “kosher” to see certain things. We are not dogs in the street, and the people who act in such scenes in movies ARE acting like animals with no sense of shame or privacy. Though a girl will not be oveir on shfichus zera l’vatalah, it is not good for her neshama to be privy to something that is meant to be filled with kedusha.October 6, 2010 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #703172
OKOctober 6, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #703173
If she is married — any man. If she is single — her nephew, her brother-in-law etc., for sure. If she is a niddah and single (and all our single women, generally, are niddos), any man is an erva to her. But about this last thing I am not sure, if there is an issur of hirhur. Shulchan Aruch, however, forbids reading dirty books as it brings yetser hora on a person.October 6, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #703174
I’m more in touch with myself and the subtleties of my personality and I saw a very clear difference how I felt after listening to non Jewish music and after listening to Jewish music. We have to go no further than analyzing rap music, its utter filth and it has been proven that those who listen to rap are influenced and become much more inclined towards a life of crime. I will tell you a story which I saw with my own eyes. One summer in camp when I was a staff member there was a fellow staff member who was a bit of a troubled guy. He was from a broken home and he seemed troubled. But he was a frum guy. Davened 3 times a day hat and jacket by davening, learning…well anyways somebody lent him a rap cd from a famous white piece of human trash rapper. This guy had never listened to rap before. He fell “in love” with the cd and started listening to it for hours and hours a day. It was pathetic how many times he must have listened to that cd. Well within a week or 2 there was a marked change in this guy. He started talking very prust and cursing, walking with a certain swagger, giving attitude…and shortly thereafter he started sleeping late and acting very depressed a short while after the summer I found out he was on drugs and off the derech. I was so upset. There was NO DOUBT that it was from the music, so nobody can tell me that music doesn’t have amazing power.
Regarding movies, for me as a guy it was easier to fill that time. I started learning more and reading inspirational books. You made a point earlier, about inspiration leaving after being out of school. The way I look at it, Yeshivah, BY…is a training ground. They inspire us and teach us how to live when we are out in the world. Now that we are adults and out of school it is our responsibility to inspire ourselves, be it by attending shiurim, listening to mp3 or watching video shiurim (there are many amazing torah websites on the net) reading sefarim and inspirational books, speaking to Ravs, Rebbitzens if we have questions or need chizuk…(going to shul on shabbos for girls)October 6, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #703175
mdd – I’m a little confused here. Are we saying that hirhur is an aveira only for people she is erva to? (which if you are single thats everyone) Or are we undecided on hirhur?
oomis – not everyone acts like dogs, what movies are you watching? 😛October 6, 2010 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #703176
If a woman is single and not a nidda(she went to the mikve), she is an erva only to her relatives. A nephew, a brother-in-law etc. would be included. She is forbidden to to do an a aveira(chas ve’sholom) with a non-relative also, but it is not gilui arayos. However, she is not supposed to go to the mikve.
If she is a niddah, she is an erva to all men. I am not 100% sure about how the issur of hirhur whould apply in this case.October 6, 2010 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #703177
WIY – what a sad story!
Thing is with RAP/Hip Hop, you hear the garbage lyrics, where every other word is a curse, talking about blowing peoples heads off, raping woman, and robbing banks. The general tone is aggressive.
I’m not validating (ok, maybe a little) what I do, but I think the its the tone/lyrics/attitude of the song more than the neshama of the person.
mdd – dont worry I’m not that far gone that actual giloy arayos is a problem 😉 PY – had mentioned that I could possibly be over on hirhur arayos which I can see how that is possible I mean its right in front of you, this is my main concern.October 6, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #703178
The reason I am not sure is because ther is a lamdishe hiluk between niddah and othe arayos. But I am not sure it makes a difference as far as the issur of hirhur goes.
But, like i said before, there are other problems with watching movies. And, for sure, it is a bigger problem for a boy.October 6, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #703179
It is extremely difficult to be madgir the issur of hirhur for women; I suggest we leave it alone. It is difficult to concieve that hirhur would be forbidden based ervah; basing on Niddah would be even more difficult, I’d be curious to see a source.
Lo Sikrevu on Hirhur? Is that even true for a man? Source! (Hishamer Lecha Mekol Davar Rah would apply for a man because of the resulting issurim, but not for a woman. The Ramban in Yevamos speaks of Hirhur for women being problematic, but not based on a posuk).
But the influence is real. We become more promiscious, more violent – we are influenced by what we see and hear. This is real. There is a double digit billions industry called advertising – which means that behaviorism works. What we see, what we hear – we do. I do – you do. This is how marketing & advertising work – and are they successful!
This is why the Torah tries to influence us on a constant basis. Say the Shema – twice a day. Everyday. Repition. Behavioralism.
America has destroyed it’s soul through the media. Destroyed it’s values & morals. True, some music is wonderful, some movies perhaps once upon time were as well – but today, since 99% percent is garbage and will influence us to evil – not because we are weak, but because we are human.
You honesty & desire to grow is certainly a great maalah, more then anything you listen to or see. But, to keep that wonderful maalah, you should water it – not poison it.
But L’Maaseh, we are not going to sit and read sifsey chaim all day. Find a hobby. Get involved. Do something you enjoy, spend time with real people with real feeling. Learn a musical instrument and fill those needs for real music.
Enjoy what is real, what is here, what is now.
And worst of all – TV & Movies teach us that life is constantly – well, on the edge of life. We lose our taste for real, beautiful, refreshing day to day life. We become zombies on the last minute saved by the dashing hero before the nuclear goes off and destroys the universe.
And we fall fate to the ultimate killer – the belief that life is later & elsewhere. Life is after I graduate, get married, lose ten pounds, marry off my grandkids – then life begins.
And that is a sad life, never ever lived. And is worse then any issur; it is lose of the point of it all. It is a living death. A life where only the fake is called real. Made in The USA, of course.October 6, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #703180ATEParticipantOctober 6, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #703181
The Gemara says V’Nishmartem MiKol Davar Rah, an issur Aseh, as mentioned. It mentions it for men, though.
Lo Sikrevu? I don’t think so – again, source anybody?October 6, 2010 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #703182
Moq – thank you for youe post!
A while back there was a thread about shaking hands with men, I was having a hard time understanding how that could be Giloy Arayos so I asked my father, and he said it would fall under Lo Sikrevu.
If hirhur is an issur I would think that by the same logic watching a movie would fall under Lo Sikrevu.October 6, 2010 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #703183
Moq, if a woman imagines doing an actual aveira with a man to whom she is an erva, she is over on “Lo sosuru aharei einiychem…” (Igros Moshe, Even HaEzer, heilek 1, tshuva 69).October 6, 2010 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #703184
Hirhur is a separate issur, not “Lo sekarvu”. Negiya derech tayva is “lo sekarvu”.October 6, 2010 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #703185oomisParticipant
“oomis – not everyone acts like dogs, what movies are you watching? 😛 “
I know of it purely through hearsay. 🙂October 6, 2010 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #703186
mdd – so an unmarried woman cant have any hirhurim?October 7, 2010 1:56 am at 1:56 am #703187
As far as violating the issur of “Lo sasuru aharei eineyhecm…” goes, it is very possible ( I just need to research it more) that she is not allowed to have hirhurim about any man because she is a niddah. For sure, she is not allowed to have hirhurim about forbidden relatives (brother-in-law etc.). But, anyhow, the Shulchan Aruch forbids reading dirty books (kol she ken movies with dirt) because it brings yetser horah on a person.October 7, 2010 2:11 am at 2:11 am #703188
mdd – thats an eye opener, you cant have unclean thoughts if you didnt go to the mikvah?October 7, 2010 3:22 am at 3:22 am #703189
Going to the mikva removes the status of an erva from her for most men. It is still, probably, not-such-a-nice-thing-to-do for a Bas Yisroel, but technically, pashtus, would not be ossur. however, like I said before, single women should not go to the mikve.October 7, 2010 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #703193
He is making it up as he goes along. Now it’s my turn.
Kol haro’uy l’billa ain billa me’akeves.October 7, 2010 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #703194
Squeak – idk what that means.October 7, 2010 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #703195
Squeak – assuming you are being serious (Really? Hmmm…makes sense…) – I real think details are not a good idea. Ad Kan. Please?October 7, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #703196
Moq – This is my thread 😉October 7, 2010 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #703197
Squeak – ok, I know what that means now (what are brothers for?) I dont see how that has anything to do with this? Moq?October 7, 2010 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #703198
As you wish; curiosity doesn’t only have feline victims. Halachic concepts out of extensive context and haskafah are destructive – and in this area, more then anything.
This area of haskafah & halacha has no place on an internet forum, and should be passed in the confidences of one woman to another, mother to daughter, student to teacher, with the feminine wisdom that they possess. Without that, mere facts are lies.
This is my opinion, with genuine respect. I will not protest further.October 7, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #703199
Squeak, what exactly are you trying to say? Did you learn the sugiya?(I suspect you are a girl).October 7, 2010 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #703200yitayningwutParticipant
I have been wondering about that for a long time, yet I don’t know of any poskim who say that way l’halacha. I have my suspicions, but I’d be interested if you have a source. Otherwise, I certainly agree with moq and I don’t think you should be making snap psakim especially in this area.October 7, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #703201
<eyeroll>October 7, 2010 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #703202
Squeak, I take offence at your accusation of making things up. I am not. And I have not changed what I was saying here from my first post. I am indeed not sure about a single niddah.October 7, 2010 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #703203
I am sorry that you are so sensitive. You seem to have no trouble accusing others of making things up.October 7, 2010 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #703204
When and where?October 7, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #703205
Two examples in the last 5 minutes:
1. Right here, directed at me
2. In the Hashkofos thread, directed at PYOctober 7, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #703206
I did not accuse you of making things up. I actually was trying to ask you to explain your accusation against me.
As far as the Pashuteh Yid goes, he says there hashkofos that you would not hear from Rabbonim. He seems to have his very own set of hashkofos.
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