October 7, 2010 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #703207
mdd- Are you saying I misinterpreted your statement: Did you learn the sugiya?(I suspect you are a girl).
And for the other example you don’t deny it, but make an excuse.
Bottom line, if you dish it out, be prepared to get it back.October 7, 2010 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #703209
I want to reiterate that I don’t mean to be condescending; I think this is a subject that you should not look at like a lulav or a mezuzah or if you should daven mincha twice. The pure halachic parameters are murky, and untzinius to discuss publicly.
The question should be – what will make a better person? A better eved Hashem, a better (future) wife & mother to raise Yareh Shamayim and Avedey Hashem.
Exact details parameters should be found from another -competent – woman; because if even if you would have clear Halachos – so much would be missing –
“logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end” (Commander Spock).October 7, 2010 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #703210
Moq – No worries, I’m pretty aware when there is malicious intent 😉 I dont even know where you could have mistaken anything you said for condescension.
Aside from being worried about dulling my sensitivities, I wanted to make sure I wasnt being over on an avira. I think everyone was in agreement on that.
And of course its fitting that you ended with a Star Wars quote 😉October 7, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #703211
TrekOctober 7, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #703212
Touche!October 7, 2010 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #703213
Whoops! yea, not big into the Sci-fi genre.October 8, 2010 6:32 am at 6:32 am #703214mddMember
For the girl who started the thread: I do not think that by watching movies you are oyver on abizrayhu de’gilui arayos. Do not do it, though, for other reasons.
Hatzlocha rabba!October 8, 2010 11:04 am at 11:04 am #703215emoticon613Member
moq, i think the source is the same as i quoted before, mesillas yesharim, perek yud alef, b’pirtei middas hanekiyus. check it, and tell me if i’m wrong cuz if i am, i have to go back and relearn it 😉October 8, 2010 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #703216mddMember
BTW, abizrayhu and “lo sasuru…” are different issurim.October 12, 2010 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #703217
How’s the no movies no non Jewish music coming along?October 12, 2010 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #703218
Honestly, I’m trying to keep myself busy after work so that I dont have time for my usual repertoire of shows.
I need to come up with an idea for the English music….October 12, 2010 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #703219
Learn the guitar – or better, violin. Write your owns songs. Things that are real. Real music.October 12, 2010 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #703220
There is a great variety in Jewish music today. Granted most of it is not as professional or as good as non Jewish music but a lot of the draw to eat leaves over time. You need to retrain your ears to what music is and once you get used to Jewish music you will be fine.
You can go to mostlymusic.com and galpazmusic.com and listen to different types of music to find what you like. They have clips from every singer’s cds to listen to. See if maybe Israeli music agrees with you. Its different from American style and many people I know who used to be hooked on non Jewish substituted it with Israeli music like Gad Elbaz, Chaim Yisroel and others.
Theres a lot out there you’ll be surprised.October 12, 2010 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #703221
Sac; I know some ppl might come off as sounding extreme when they say stay away from movies w/ nudity & sensual content, however trust me if you know anything about a jewish soul, (not that im an expert) I just read some holy seforim on the topic,
you’d know that these movies and what one see with their eyes, affects them on a conscious as well as a subconscious level. they leave imprints on ones mind, & memory.
Even when you think you can hardly remember what you ate last week,images of a pure or impure nature are burnt into ones mind much like a dvd-rw but cannot be erased like a dvd-rw. It also desensitises ones natural unique pureness and with time makes hazy ones morals ideals, and beliefs.
Yidden R”L who watch All types movies on a regular basis, will try to defend it, say it doesn’ t affect them, “on the contrary, it inspires them educates them etc.”
I’m sorry to say.. it’s a bunch of baloney or bolonga.
It also distorts ones reality, warps one’s imagination & reality.
e.g. A thing you might’ve never though about, might cross your mind if only for a second. Then if an opportunity presented itself, one might find themselves following it.
NOT a good opportunity. Later that person might wonder how they ever fell for that, & can’t believehow they could’ve did that.
This is all thanks to movies, which sole purpose, aside for making many people in the industry insanely rich, is to give people what they want, but could never have in real life, Perfection.
Be it superpowers, Respect, Wealth, the prettiest smartest wife, the cutest kids, a super job, sportscars in the driveway, mansions and private jets, everybody likes you,
you always have to coolest lines, when you walk down the street everybody greets you with a smile, calling you sir, or boss, or madam, you always manage to save the world, diffuse the bomb in the last second 00:00:01. “whew that was close!” “If it wasn’t
for Ploni we’d all be dead” (ploni’s not a popular name in films)
I’m writing a lot here to bring out the point crystal clear.
Please, if want to watch a movie, make sure it not very often, and make sure it is clean like no nudity etc, no killings, etc.. It for the benfit of your life, & everlasting soul.
I’m not extremist, i’m a realist!October 12, 2010 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #703222
another realist Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl, said that his Rebbe told him not only that these images are all indelibly impressed into the mind, but they remain within your Neshama in Olam HaBah!
(he didnt say if Tshuvah could remove them or not)October 12, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #703223
“another realist Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl, said that his Rebbe told him not only that these images are all indelibly impressed into the mind, but they remain within your Neshama in Olam HaBah!
(he didnt say if Tshuvah could remove them or not)”
I hope they can be erased with Teshuvah!
P.s. who was his Rebbi, do you know?October 12, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #703224
he usually just says “my Rebbie”
or “the Rosh Yeshivah”October 12, 2010 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #703225
Mod-80 Wow that drives the point home. Thanks!October 12, 2010 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #703227
His Rebbe was Rav Isaac Sher according to Wiki.October 12, 2010 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #703228
Moq – I took Piano lessons when I was a kid… until my family begged me to stop. Then, I dated a guy who played guitar and drums professionally (before he became Frum)… needless to say it is better for all parties involved if I never pick up another instrument 😉
WIY – Thanks for the suggestions! I actually listen to Jewish music as well. I’m not one of those people who hate Jewish music and thinks the only music that is worth anything is English music.
Not a fan of Israeli music, kind of reminds me of music in a nightclub with a singer on Speed (no offence if you like it). Maybe I’ll download some shiurim, its embarrassing the last time I listened to one…
Bein Hasdorim – I dont think it sounds extreme, I’m completely aware of it. I’ve been blessed and cursed with an amazing visual memory so once I see something I rarely forget it, so the excuse of I’ll forget it next week isn’t a good one for me.
I am also acutely aware of how my personal convictions have changed.
STORY: I was in college and a case came up where a Gay man wanted to leave his inheritance to his partner (this case was a long time ago). I USED to be intensely against the right for Gays to marry/adopt children/have rights… and I voiced that in the class, long story short I failed that class and got the Dean involved (I didnt get an A, but at least I didnt fail)
Here we are a little over 3 years later and I am ALL for equal rights for Gays. Can the credit be solely attributed to movies? IDK, but I’m sure it helped.
Disclaimer: I know Mishkav Zachor is against the Torah, therefor if a question ever showed up at the polls I wouldnt vote.October 12, 2010 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #703229
thank you wifOctober 12, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #703230
Sacrilege, perhaps this is a discussion for a different topic, but I understand perfectly how immersion could change your opinion. Here is a quote from a secular personality that sums up pretty nicely why the anti-gay rights movement makes no sense:
“All gays and lesbians want from evangelical Christians is the same deal the Jews and the yoga instructors and the atheists and the divorced and the adulterers and the rich all get: full civil equality despite the going-to-hell business.”
Makes perfect sense from a Christian pov. Why should gays be treated any differently from Jews, or any divorced-and-remarried person? Their anti-gay stance is simply hypocritical, inconsistent, and biased. Any fair-minded Christian would agree that there is no categorical difference and no reason to deny one group the same rights extended to the other groups.
Makes perfect sense from a legal pov. Unless you go and redefine marriage with the terms “one man and one woman”, there is no rational exclusion for any two people to be joined in a legal marriage.
From a Jewish point of view there is no such inconsistency, and a perfectly ‘rational’ exculsion. The Torah forbids such a union. The Torah does not forbid non-Jews or divorcees to marry, nor does it condemn them to hell. Therefore, neither do we. WRT gays, we have a responsibility to try and prevent the legitimization of such an anti-Torah concept, as well as any other anti-Torah concepts. We are not being hypocritical or biased, rather consistent followers of our faith. We may lose the battle, since it is not our country, but we have a solid position on the issue.October 12, 2010 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #703231
A keyboard can be played with headphones; I share your frustration with Jewish music as a mode of musical expression. I personally enjoy classical music and little “real” Jewish music which is out there.
While I personally think gays are part of the destruction of any moral fabric left in America – I don’t want the goverment enforcing anything moral. Usually, goyish moral goverments end up burning us at the stake. But your honesty is refreshing; yes, we are influenced by what we hear and see.
But I again push for the musical instrument to give you musical expression – no doubt with practice others will appreciate your skills. Maybe you can splurge on a digital instrument (again , that can be played with headphones until you reach world class?).October 12, 2010 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #703232KashaMember
My opinion is sodomy ought to be a capital offense. If you don’t enforce morality, you will have naked people roaming the street and you lose your footing to execute murderers.October 12, 2010 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #703233
Kasha – I believe that secular law should be limited to interpersonal things (like, murder. I believe a murder should be executed on moral grounds, I believe he should be executed because he took another life and must pay with his).
I think we should be confident to the world about what our moral opinions are, but be clear about what the role of government should be. I think we should encourage a moral society, but not at a government level.
While it’s certainly horrible, I think us yidden are better off that way. I think we vote for the candidate who protects our freedom, protects Eretz Yisrael & our country and gives us money.
I think our national memory is very short of what it means to be under a government that regulates our private lives. I think we get killed that way.
And by the way, we DO have naked people roaming the street. But that’s a different thread.
But come, let us not hijack sacriledge’s thread.October 12, 2010 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #703234
Sacrilege and Mod 80
You are welcome!
As for listening to shiurim I want to direct you to aw ebsite I recently started using that I found to be exceptionally inspiring.
The shiurim are also available on Torahanytime.com his name is Rabbi Yosef (Yossi) Mizrachi. His shiurim are Tachlis, he is very sincere and lives every word he says, he presents things in a very clear and enjoyable way and he has a good sense of humor as well. He is originally Israeli so he has an accent, however his accent is understandable and its really worth listening to his shiurim. He is currently my favorite speaker (I’m always listening to shiurim and I keep finding new Rabbanim I like I have a few favorites).
Please do look into his shiurim. He has a nice amount of recorded shiurim on almost any topic (as well as dating). Listen to a full shiur and let me know what you think.October 12, 2010 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #703235
squeak – This is completely off topic and I was just bringing up an example, but I’ll share my moral/religious/political dilemma in regards to Gay Marriage.
Marriage is defined as one man and one woman. Who defined marriage as that? G-d. Now that unravels the entire political argument. In this country we have separation of Church and State, you cant create a Law based on a religious view, or preference on religious view over the other. Therefor, Gays should be allowed to have equal rights, being that the entities that have a problem with Gay marriage are the religious ones! What other grounds could you argue same sex marriage?
I really didnt want to get into this.October 12, 2010 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #703236
Moq – I completely agree. I dont want my Government telling me what to do, what to eat, who to love, where to live, who to give money to…
Less is more when it comes to Government.October 12, 2010 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #703237☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
As much as many would like to deny it, exposure to secular movies is ????, not merely “not a nice thing”. I bring here a translation of ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?’ ??’ ?”? from Rav Ovadiah Yosef Shlit”a.
I wish anyone trying to fight the Yetzer Hora on this one much hatzlocha!
“…One must close his eyes when reading ??? (when in the presence of a television).October 12, 2010 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #703238
Did you read my post on R’ Mizrachi?October 12, 2010 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #703239
I just downloaded about 2.5 hours worth of shiurim on to my Ipod to listen to on the way home from work.
Thanks for the suggestion!October 13, 2010 12:54 am at 12:54 am #703240
You are welcome! I hope you enjoy. Let me know.October 13, 2010 12:58 am at 12:58 am #703241
Daas Yochid; what about Loy Tovi To’eivah El Beisecha?October 13, 2010 1:17 am at 1:17 am #703242
Att: mods; the thread spelled “Giloy” Arayos, is spelled wrong
it should be Gilui or Giluy, or whatever you think.October 13, 2010 1:23 am at 1:23 am #703243
bein hasdorim – Mods didnt spell it I did.
Hooked on Phonoics worked for me 🙂October 13, 2010 1:24 am at 1:24 am #703244
Phonics* LOL.October 13, 2010 1:53 am at 1:53 am #7032451987Participant
To the moderator- You call this Yeshiva World? Which Rabbanim are allowing you to publish an open forum about arayos, with men and women discussuing this between each other? And then we move on to gay’s rights? Do you know that children are reading this? And it is just as harmful for adults too!October 13, 2010 3:12 am at 3:12 am #703246
1987 – Good point!
Since its my thread you can refer to it as Yeshivish Modern World.October 13, 2010 3:58 am at 3:58 am #703247Midwest2Participant
1987 – this is a site for adults. Children shouldn’t be reading it. Frum adults need a forum where we can discuss serious issues, not just the sanitized versions that make the “mainstream” (HaModia, etc.) media.
We had problems for years with censoring types saying that some things couldn’t be discussed because “the children might hear.” Those days are over. The reality of life has caught up with us and we need forums where speech can be free – within the boundaries of Torah and civility – and not make everything “safe” for your hypothetical average twelve-year-old. If this troubles you, be more selective in which threads you read. This thread has some very serious issues that adults in our days are facing, and done it with derech eretz and decency.October 13, 2010 4:30 am at 4:30 am #703248
Round of applause for your comments in response to 1987. Very well said!October 13, 2010 4:50 am at 4:50 am #7032491987Participant
Midwest 2- you may think that this is a site for adults, but from my own experience, I can tell you that I know alot more teenagers reading this site than adults. They have a lot more free time! Perhaps Yeshiva World should put up a poll, regarding which age groups read the Coffee Room. You may be suprised.
I agree this thread has serious issues which adults are facing, this is why it should be brought up with a mentor, Rav or Rebbetzin. It can be done anonymously- over the phone, instead of asking a bunch of Joe Shmoes (myself, included) for advice on a serious matter.
And lastly, there are plenty of other so called “Jewish sites” on the internet for blogging about such topics. A site that calls themselves Yeshiva World, and supposedly follows directions of Rabbanim should not be opening such a forum.October 13, 2010 5:21 am at 5:21 am #703250
Hooked on Phonoics really did wonders 4u, “dat pwetty cwose”
it wasn’t so much about the spelling than the hebrew meaning.
in chasidishe pronounciation it sounds like the place Gilo,
instead of uncovering, i.e. Giluy
1987; First of all, children should NOT be online w/o total adult supervision!
If you do not agree, then you have a lot worse to worry about then YWN/CR.October 13, 2010 5:42 am at 5:42 am #703251HomeownerMember
1987, who is allowing his or her kids to use the computer unsupervised?
This thread is supposed to be about movies. Last year I saw “Inglorious _______” a movie set in World War II about a group of American soldiers on a mission to kill as many Nazis as possible.
Quite honestly, I enjoyed it.
If anyone really believes it’s assur to watch such a movie, tell me why.October 13, 2010 7:45 am at 7:45 am #703252
A casual google revealed that there was a brief but rather graphic sex scene as well as some viewage of scantily clad women. Additionally the violence is supposedly really extreme and gory. When you watch enough movies this stuff begins to become “normal” for you and you don’t even pick up on it. It numbs your sensitivities.
Baruch Hashem I quit watching movies, my eyes and mind had a spiritual rehab and now I am so much more aware of how bad movies are as well as how low the general levels of modesty are by the non Jewish public and I know to take precautions of where I look.October 13, 2010 11:01 am at 11:01 am #703253HaKatanParticipant
As righteous as their cause may have been, you’re watching people who do not have the gadlus nor the sensitivity of bnei Avraham, Yitzchak viYaakov.
Furthermore, they are actors who are being paid to convey a particular set of emotions and reactions. And that goes from the screen to your eyes to your soul.
And that lack of sensitivity (among other things) is bound to have an effect on you, as does everything in our seviva.
At the end of the day, one should filter what one allows into one’s body so that only purity and good is even brought up for consideration; that goes for all senses: sight, sound, taste, etc.
I can’t tell you it’s assur, but I can tell you that it makes no sense to make yourself a lesser person as a result of watching it.October 13, 2010 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #703254
Beinhasdorim – I’m not chassidish, and I was spelling it completely based on phonetics.
EDITEDOctober 13, 2010 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #703255☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
bein_hasdorim: Chacham Ovadiah quoted Loy Tovi To’eivah El Beisecha as well.October 13, 2010 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #703256WolfishMusingsParticipant
I can tell you that I know alot more teenagers reading this site than adults.
Considering what is (sadly) available on the Internet, I highly doubt any teens are reading the Coffeeroom solely for salacious interest in topics about arayos.
The WolfOctober 13, 2010 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #703257ChossonMember
I’m not commenting about whether this thread should be on “Yeshiva World”, personally I am loving this thread.
But regarding what you said that who lets their teenage children on the internet unsupervised, and if you do this is your smallest problem, I’m not sure you’re right about that, because if you have filtered internet then they can’t go on obscene sites, and yet can go on Yeshiva World, so that’s what 1987 is talking aboutOctober 13, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #703258
Frankly I am almost sure most if not all teens and young children wouldnt have the patience or understanding to read through these threads. Theyd be bored to tears. Any kid that likes to read will read a book and not a forum.
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