Girls Congregating the Streets on Shabbos

Girls have a right to walk to their friends, or walk to shiurim, or walk to the nursing homes or wherever else it is they are going. As long as they arent just congregating in the street to “hang out” and to just be in the street I see no issue with it.

How do you know what they are up to unless you are busy paying attention to them and watching them during those “3 hours” that they are on the street.

I take it you are a boy so you should either be in a bais medrash learning or at home learning, or even sleeping. I see no reason why a boy may hang out on the street unless he has a reason to be there either.

If you were where you were supposed to be and doing what you were supposed to do this “enormous issue” wouldnt be a problem for you.

yb613 – so true. unfortunately you are going to get a bunch of posts here following up your expressing your concern by incredulous people who won’t even grasp the issue or problem.

yb613 – why don’t you clarify the “issue or problem” so we can get a better “grasp” on it and comment intelligently.

The reason there are tons of girls on the street is that b”H there are tons of frum girls! They are going and coming and socializing. There’s nothing wrong with that unless they are being very loud and raucous.

yb613 (yeshiva bochur?)I gather you’re not a girl, so if it bothers you try to stay off the streets.

Unfortunately too many don’t even understand the *concept*.

So then perhaps you can humor me and my feeble brain and explain it to me. Why is this different from girls than for boys? Was the Navi only talking to girls when he said “Hatzneiah Leches…?”

The Wolf

Because when the same group of girls congregating and “socializing” on the streets when he goes to learn and then again when he goes to shachris and mincha and then again when he returns from shachris and mincha, and its the same people week after week, there is no way considering the teva the RBS”O gave us not to notice.

No one is attacking him. If the girls stand around congregated and shmoozing for 3 hours then that’s very wrong.

there is no way considering the teva the RBS”O gave us not to notice.

Apparently there is, because I don’t notice these things. Seriously, I couldn’t point out a single woman (other than my wife and my daughter) whom I saw on the way to or from shul in the last few weeks — and it’s not because there weren’t any (I know because I make it a point to say “Good Shabbos” to everyone*) — I just don’t remember their faces, what they were wearing, etc.

The Wolf

* Yes, I know… some of you will feel that I’m the worst person in the world for saying “Good Shabbos” to a woman. I guess it’s a concept my corrupted little warped brain can’t handle.

if the point of the congregating is to attract boys, then boys congregating to attract boys should also be an issue. in my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with girls getting together or walking around or whatever.

if you are in a situation where you can not change another persons actions (which is very often the case) then it becomes YOUR obligation to get yourself out of the situation. if the problem is that you pass them on your way to and from learning, and on your way to and from shul (just out of curiosity- if you are inside the entire time, how do you know that they dont leave and come back?) then perhaps find another way to get to your destination. it may be a way that takes a little bit longer, but it will help you to avoid the situation.

you may (or may not) be right that girls should not be standing around shmoozing, but there is something that YOU can do about the situation. shmiras einayim is a mitzva for you, and in this case it would seem that you might have to go out of your way to do it.

there is no halachik problem that arises w/girls socializing on te street.

Some people wont like what Im about to say but I will say it anyways. Just because you are a teenager and cant control your raging Tayvos doesnt mean girls need to be locked up in the house where you will never see them.

Girls have every right to be on the street and go where they need to go. Theres only an issue when girls are congregating on purpose to go out looking at boys which Im sure there arent many out there doing. If stam girls being on the street bothers you, then maybe you have some misogynistic issues.

1) Women should stay inside:

(a) Poskim

1. Shulchan Aruch (73:1): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside. A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…”

i. Gra (4): Hash-m did not create Chavah from Adam’s foot, lest she roam too much (Bereishis Rabah 18:2). “Ishtecha k’Gefen Poriyah” is only when she is modest “b’Yarkesei Veisecha” (Medrash Tehilim 128:3).

(b) Rishonim

1. Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside in order that she can go to her father or a house of mourning or Simchah. She may go to these places to bestow Chesed to her friends and relatives, in order that they will come to her. She is not a prisoner who may not come and go. However, it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets. A man should prevent his wife from doing so. She should go outside once or twice a month, according to the need. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah”.

i. Source (Magid Mishneh): Bereishis Rabah (45:5) says that when the Torah discusses the detriment of women, it says that they go out – ‘Va’Tetzei Dinah”. The Sifri (Tetzei 242 (23)), regarding a Na’arah Me’orasah who was enticed to Zenus, says that a breach (going out in the city) calls to the thief. Bereishis Rabah (8:12) reads “Kivshuha” like ‘Kavshah’ to teach that a husband should prevent his wife from going out too much.

2. Rambam (Nedarim 12:11): If a woman vowed not to give water to her husband’s animals, he cannot annul it. A wife need not do this for her husband.

i. Kesef Mishneh: A wife must give straw to her husband’s animals, but she need not give water. This is because normally one leaves the house to go to the river or spring for this, and “Kol Kevudah…”

4. Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17): If a man married a woman from a city of the same quality as his own, even if he married her in his city we force him to live in her city. We learn from “Be’ulas Ba’al”… Another reason is because he can go to visit his friends, but she cannot, due to “Kol Kevudah.”

5. Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2): The Ri ha’Levi learns from our Gemara that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to go to Beis Din, due to “Kol Kevudah.” Rather, we send a Shali’ach of Beis Din to hear her claims. The Aruch and R. Chananel agree. The Ramban and Teshuvos of the Rif and Rav Sadya Gaon do not allow this. The Rif allows only that Beis Din send scribes to record her claim. The same applies to a Chacham for whom it is degrading to argue with Amei ha’Aretz in Beis Din; his honor is greater than a woman’s.

i. Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5): The Gemara (Nazir 12a) says that women are Kevu’os due to “Kol Kevudah.”

(c) Gemara

1. (R. Yochanan): Avner told Do’eg ‘We learned that an Amoni and a Mo’avi are forbidden, but an Amonis and a Mo’avis are not!’

2. Question (Do’eg): If so, you should say that a Mitzri is forbidden, not a Mitzris!

3. Answer (Avner): Mo’avim are forbidden “Because they did not go out to greet you with bread and water.” This does not apply to women. It is normal for men to go out to greet, but not for women.

4. Objection (Do’eg): The men should have gone out to greet the men, and the women to greet the women!

5. Avner was silent.

6. Question: How can we answer?

7. Answer #1 (Chachamim of Bavel): “Kol Kevudah Vas Melech Penimah” (it is dishonorable for women to go outside, even to greet women).

8. Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): We learn this from ” … Where is your wife Sarah?” (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)

9. (Beraisa – R. Yehudah): “Amoni” and “Mo’avi” are forbidden, not Amonis and Mo’avis;

10. R. Shimon says, “Because they did not go out …” – it is the way of a man …

11. Nazir 12a (R. Yochanan): If Reuven made a Shali’ach to be Mekadesh an unspecified woman and the agent died, Reuven may not marry any woman (Leah), lest the Shali’ach was Mekadesh Leah’s relative to Reuven.

12. Question (Reish Lakish): When a Hekdesh bird flies away, we are not concerned about other birds (lest it is the Hekdesh bird; we follow the majority. The same should apply here (most women are not Leah’s relatives)!

13. Answer (R. Yochanan): Because woman do not roam, the Safek is considered Kavu’a (fixed), so we don’t follow the majority.

15. Gitin 12a (Beraisa): If a wife was exiled to a refuge city, her husband must feed her. He can tell her to feed herself from her earnings only if she earns enough to feed herself.

16. Question: If she can earn enough, this is obvious!

17. Answer: One might have thought that due to “Kol Kevudah…”, she need not work and he must feed her. The Beraisa teaches that this is not so.

18. Shevu’os 30a – Question: What is the source that (women are invalid witnesses, so) Shevu’as ha’Edus does not apply to women?

19. Answer (Beraisa): “V’Omdu Shnei ha’Anashim” refers to the witnesses.

20. Question: Perhaps it refers to the parties in the case!

21. Answer #1: The Torah would not say “men”, for women also need to come for judgment.

22. Answer #2: If you prefer, you can learn from “Shnei” (masculine).

23. Question: What objection might one have to the first answer?

24. Answer: Normally women do not come to Beis Din for judgment (rather, they send a man to plead their case), due to “Kol Kevudah…”

The problem yb613 describes is all the more pronounced, and even worse, in some bungalow colonies Friday night when the men come back from shul and must pass adult married women congregating — often loudly talking — drawing attention to themselves.

Thank you Kasha for all the sources listed.

ME2: What that Rosh is saying, in so many words, is that since a woman is not supposed to make too much traveling due to “Kol Kevudah”, he should move to her city so she could be near childhood friends without necessitating too much travel (which she can’t do). He on the other hand, has no restrictions on too much travel, so he can travel to visit his childhood friends even if he no longer lives in that city.

Whoever has this problem, should send their “boys” out of the house and invite the girls in. Really, in all honesty where should they go? Is there any kind of recreational place girls can group together and just be themselves? Boys are home in the summer and not necessarily in yeshiva so should they congregate in someone’s house if their brothers are there?

Seriously if you think this is an issue get together with the other ladies in your shul and work things out for the “boys” not to be at home when you take turns to make your home “girls only” and give them some privacy.

haQer

Its interesting that you mention this. I just opened up this sefer on mussar from the Chida. In it he quotes the Zohar that someone who talks in shul doesn’t have a chelek in the HaShem (whatever that means). It goes on to say that he is cursed in shomayim etc.

Then he says the RaMaK and Arizal did not even let people speak divrei Torah in shul (bear in mind there is a difference if the shul is used for learning and davening vs. just davening).

So I’m not so sure the ezras nashim is a good option for talking sichas b’teilim. If they’re discussing the parshah or having a va’ad that’s would probably be fine since most shuls are used for learning as well these days.

sofdvar, I highly doubt any Rov will tell you that you can only go out twice a month. I think your Rov will tell you that you shouldn’t go out more than you need to.

Nobody is objecting to the fact that kol kovida bas melech pnima. Everyone understands women and girls should not hang out on the streets, in the malls or anywhere for that matter, just for the sake of hanging out.

However to posken halacha from the sources that Kasha brought down, while it’s indeed impressive, does not mean that in actuality we women can only go out twice a month. We have already been through a similiar argument in the Feminism thread where I don’t remember who wrote that the Rambam poskened that a man has the right to divorce his wife if she refuses to wash his feet. We have argued to what extent minhugim and das Yehudi has an effect on interpreting halacha. The bottom line is that most husbands would first of all not ask their wife to wash their feet and one who would and the wife would refuse and the husband would seek a get because of that reason, the Rov or bes din I think would seriously question his sanity.

Let’s understand something. The Torah was given to humans be they men or women. There is nothing in the Torah or halachas that if they pertain to someone they cannot keep anywhere or anytime.

Let’s discuss REALITY and halacha is ALWAYS APPLICABLE IN EVERY SITUATION AND GENERATION.

For starters should girls over bas mitzva not go to school? Attending school makes them go out AT LEAST five times a week!

If a father can’t take his child to the doctor because he’s working, the mother is not allowed to if she’ll overstep her two times a month out of the house allowance?

Girls who graduated school and women until they have kids would have to sit home doing nothing.

Walking to air out or for excersize, getting together at a resturaunt with freinds or even going out with one’s husband should be abolished?

Not every man can go grocery shopping that would entail the woman of the house to go out AT LEAST 4 times a week.

What about buying shoes and clothing for kids. Evreyone who has kids knows that this is not a one time ordeal. You need to buy and exchange for size, return what didn’t fit well, etc., boys stuff from one store, girls from another,skirts from one place matching tops from another, etc., etc., etc.

There’s no denying that’s it’s VITAL in today’s generation for girls to play outside with their freinds, go to their freinds houses to socialize, (in the Rambam’s time I doubt they had such social scenes which today is vital)go to school for extra ciricular activities such as plays, and other such VITAL mental health (yes it’s mental health for the girls)needs.

Halacha is poskened by Rabbonim and not by bringing down short excerpts and posting them on the internet.

In the times of the Bais Hamikdosh girls would GO OUT and DANCE in the vineyards and there would be shidduchim made there. Would we have such a social scene today? Absolutely not. We need to remember that minhugim play a huge role in the day to day life of Jews.

The bottom line is that girls or woman should not hang out day and night in the street, but coming, going, socializing in front of their own houses (if applicable – in the city in front of aparment buildings it might not be the correct thing to do)

Nobody’s going against halacha if we go out according to our needs. We women can still act btznius even though our needs our different.

Let’s be realistic. Someone who forbids to let their wife and daughters go out not more than twice a month would be considered abusive two say the least. At to that that such a man would probably be considered mushega.

Kol kevuda bas melech penima means that girls and women do not stam hang out, look for attention from men and boys, and are aidel and refined. It also means they respect and understand the fact that they should not congregate on the street or in front of a yeshiva or bais midrash and not walk in a loud or wild manner.

Kol kevoda bas melech penima means that not a women’s dress, not her job (other than being a mother) and not her physical guf is her kovod. Only what is hidden, her soul and her tznius, and the ruchnius that she permeates in the penimious of her house, that is her kovod.

Instead of just complaining, lets share ideas how to keep our girls off the streets.

I heard a speaker say this to teenage bochurim-

(You may want to replace the first instance of the word “problem” with “interest”, it’s a softer tone but it doesn’t fit as well.)

“Every male has a problem with females, any male who says otherwise is either lying or has a bigger problem.”

H-shem created this desire in the interest of keeping the population going for generations to come.

My wife was at the speech for teenage girls where the following was said, “There is a difference between being attractive and being attracting. While every girl could and should look attractive, acting in an attracting manner is a serious lack of tznius.”

By the same idea, girls should be fine going for walks and schmoozing with friends. Standing in front of one location for an extended period of time, while socializing and laughing in a loud manner should be discouraged.

The Rambam writes ” She is not a prisoner who may not come and go.”

It seems to me that the miforshim talk about women not going to din Torah because of “kol kevudah…” it indicates that women were involved in disputes because they ere involved in busines. But because of their kovod, it wouldn’t pas for them to argue their case in front of a bais din. Just like the Rif who poskened that it’s not HONORABLE for a Chacham who’s HONOR is greater than a woman to be called to bes din. It’s obvious that we are talking about KOVOD-HONOR.

The lesson I take from this is not that women should be prisoners, rather it is not honorable to publisize oneself. One is showing kovod and respect to oneself when we act b’tznius.

The issue is girls congregating the streets for three hours and not going to a particular place

The key question is where are they congregating? In front of a beis medrish or a place where men constantly go and come?

yb613, if that’s the case then you have a justified complaint. So to find out if your complaint is justified I would speak to other bucharim and see what they have to say about this inyan. If there is indeed a problem with girls congretating in places where they shouldn’t be, then discuss this with a Rosh Yeshiva and if they find that there is indeed a problem that justifies a solution, they can call the girls principles from school and work out a solution such as girls cannot congregate on a particlur block where men constantly go and come.

If it’s girls congregating in one particular area let’s say in front of someone’s house and that house is not located near a shul then the girls cannot be asked not to congregate there. If you find it disturbing perhaps you can find a different route to where you need to go to circumvent passing the girls.

oomis,

i’ve realized men and women have different definitions for communication.

men communicate to give information

women communicate because they need to talk

So what about women going to spend the evening with friends at a restaurant stam a zoi, not for an occasion, is this mutter too?

So what about women going to spend the evening with friends at a restaurant stam a zoi, not for an occasion, is this mutter too?

It’s important to get out occasionaly, but some women are forever frequenting resturaunts a few times a weeks. That’s different than getting together once in a while with freinds. The middle road of everything is the best.

The same goes for those LIVING in malls or other shopping areas. For those that enjoy shopping and finding metzias and occasionaly do so (maybe more frequently before Yom Tov) and come home revitalized with their fabulous finds (“Husband look what I found! I found a skirt for Daughter for $10! Isn’t it gorgeous? Look the original price was $60! And I also found a matching top for $5!” Husband tries to look interested but isn’t succesful) there’s nothing wrong with that. But for a woman to constantly live in shopping places and frequent them every other day makes her a woman who is not living with the knowledge that “kol kevuda bas melech penima”.