Going off the Derech

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  • #1182546

    hudi
    Participant

    It was a general statement.

    #1182547

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Hi Write or Wrong, I still am following this thread although I don’t always have what to contribute. I hope and pray that things will get better ASAP and that his new yeshiva will work out.

    The best thing that everyone can do for write or wrong is to daven. And give support. Advice is tricky to give because we don’t know you personally and we are not in Israel, although I thought some posters did give wonderful advice.

    I hope they don’t close this thread it is chizzuk for mothers of OTD children.

    Hang in there Write or Wrong.

    #1182548

    aries2756
    Participant

    When someone is in pain, others need to understand the sensitivity of the issues and how vulnerable a person can be. If an OP comes here for chizuk, the last thing a person needs to do is poke,prod and push. If you feel you can be helpful then do so in a sensitive manner. Pushing your point of view or agenda on a person who is stressed and feeling so much pain is NOT helpful.

    In addition, if one is not being received as intended, then maybe it is the poster who should “bother” to read through the history of the thread to truly understand what the OP has already gone through, what questions she has already answered and what helped or didn’t. Coming into this conversation in the middle of a long thread without this history or back up knowledge can cause misunderstanding and frustration. You can also bring up old hurts and wounds that are already being worked on for resolution, and touch a nerve that is too sensitive for the poster to reveal.

    Just because we want to try and help someone does NOT mean that we have the RIGHT to know everything or give them the third degree. A person will share whatever they are comfortable sharing. Playing at psychoanalyzing them with pointed questions and then some “insight” into why they are not answering them is counter productive and useless. If you choose to play at being a therapist then you need to learn how to react when your client clams up and shuts you down. The point being that no one HAS to offer help and the OP does not HAVE to engage in anyone who wants to play that game with her. She also should not be put into a position to defend her actions. How does that help?

    I believe that when a person does a chessed such as give chizuk to someone in pain, they need to understand how that person needs that chessed. Whether or not she needs to be supported or whether or not she needs to be challenged. Jt is up to us to give them the Chessed they need in the manner that they need it or we aren’t really doing a chessed.

    #1182549

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-thanks, I’m trying.

    aries2756-I think you pretty much summed it up in your post. You are right.

    #1182550

    daniela
    Member

    WOW This is a public thread, I think, correct me if I am wrong, and it is my very humble opinion that no one should have to give explanations and excuses for following it. It looks like you did not notice, but plenty of readers have been restraining themselves, as there is a mitzvah to be silent when our words of truth will not be well-received. It did not occur to you that perhaps I am possibly aware that the facts are, let me not say different, let me use an understatement and say more complicated, as opposed to how you represented things here?

    @interjection, I assume you have read the whole thread as it was posted, if you did not yet, please do.

    #1182551

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    daniela – I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. If you are forcing yourself to keep silent, and you are sure, somehow, that other anonymous posters are too, than why bother reading. I too chose to skip threads that bother me so. But I do not agree with you. And I wouldn’t assume that many others do either. I don’t know what the “truth” is, but I don’t know why you insist it is your job to push for it. As a mom of many teens I have found WOW’s parenting to be different than mine but it isn’t suspicious. On the other hand, I have found your comments to be very well intended but they strike me strongly as coming from someone who does not have children, regardless of whether or not you do. Perhaps the facts don’t add up because they are coming from a different viewpoint, and not because they are missing truth? Either way, I am sorry for answering back, I have been restraining myself because it is a mitzvah to be silent when our words of truth will not be well received, but instead of trying to help, you sound (to me, at least) as if you are angry that your opinions are not being regarded and I worry that your tone is hurtful. If that is incorrect than I am sorry.

    #1182552

    write or wrong
    Participant

    As far as the facts being ‘different’, I must say that I have no idea what you mean. One thing is true, and that is, that the situation changes from week to week. Sometimes, it even changes by the day due my son’s constant search for who he is and who he wants to be. If you are not following this thread consistently, it may appear to you that the story keeps changing, but it’s just that the story keeps evolving to a new level.

    “as there is a mitzvah to be silent when our words of truth will not be well-received”

    Why is it that your words (and everyone else’s) are ‘words of truth’, and mine are not? It is also a mitzvah to give kaf zchus.

    Any parent who is in my shoes knows, that no one can be as effective in blaming me, as much as me blaming myself. It is the natural reaction, whether deserved or not, to search for all the things I might have done wrong that might have brought on this situation. If I wanted insight on this issue, I could never get it from the CR bc none of you are privy to all the nitty gritty details of our lives. So why do think you know? The answer to those questions are between me and Hashem. What I can get in the CR is the benefit of your experiences or knowledge, what worked for you and what didn’t; Recommendations of lectures, Rebbes, and organizations etc, which many of you have given. From the parents of kids OTD I received encouragement and hope to continue, when I felt like I was going to crash. And to those of you who work with kids OTD, I got tremendous chizuk, and will be forever thankful, especially to aries2756 and soliek.

    With much gratitude,

    write or wrong

    #1182553

    hudi
    Participant

    I think WOW and others should ignore those who are attacking WOW. WOW, there is no reason for you to defend yourself. You are doing everything possible that you can. You are in contact with da’as torah and therapists. You are reaching out for help.You are doing nothing wrong. There should be no issue whatever with WOW’s desire to clarify her feelings and seek guidance.

    #1182555

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, it saddens me that you have made this choice but I fully understand it. I too walked away months ago because of posters who did not realize how insensitive they were being. It is difficult to be as sensitive as an anonymous cyber persona than a “real” person. I don’t know why I took a peak just at the time that you posted, but I am glad that I did, and if you noticed I have not gone into other posts.

    At this time, I would like to offer you another option. If you need me, you can ask the moderators to give you my email address or you can ask Avi at Twisted parenting to give it to you. Please contact me when necessary and I will try and support you as best as I can. I would also ask you to please reconsider and not allow yourself to be pushed away when there are so many really sensitive and caring people who have actually helped and offered you true chizuk. I know that it hurts, even though no one can see that it does. But if being here has helped you, then it has served a very good purpose and one that should continue and not stop because of individuals that do not have the proper perspective or understanding.

    #1182556

    write or wrong
    Participant

    hudi-I did try to ignore some of the previous posters who seemed to be hurtful, having their own agenda. But more recently, some of the posters accused me of ‘changing’ my story, or changing the facts. This, to me, insinuates that they are looking to find fault with me. I have no reason to alter my story, as painful as it is. And if I don’t give them my social security number and home address, they’ll accuse me of trying to ‘hide something’, and perhaps I was this ‘deceitful’ kind of mother with my OTD child as well. These are not people with good intentions, and as long as the moderators let their posts come through, I find it hard to continue.

    #1182557

    write or wrong
    Participant
    #1182558

    2scents
    Participant

    Please note, that I followed this thread very closely, I even at one point tried offering some advise until I realized that this is beyond my scope of practice.

    However never ever did I think that you are a fluke or that you changed the facts.

    I feel very sorry for you about what you and your family are going through.

    I do wish you hatzlacha and that you should see a Yeshua Bkarov.

    #1182559

    write or wrong
    Participant

    2scents-I always enjoyed your 2 cents! Thanks for your wishes, may they come true!

    #1182560

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, if I may just add one word of advice. I found that if you ignore those posters who just choose to pick, either they will go away on their own because you have NOT engaged with them or others will ask them to leave.

    You do have the choice to answer or to not answer. You do have the choice to work with those who you feel are truly working with you and offering you the kind of support you need and ignore those who are just trying to stir the pot. If a poster starts asking “WOW, why aren’t you answering my questions?” someone will eventually answer them, that she doesn’t have to, she already had this discussion with someone else, read the entire thread, or she came here for chizuk, not for a third degree.” YOU are NOT obligated to answer every poster on this thread, although you have been extremely gracious in trying to do just that.

    I wish you and your entire family much hatzlocha during this trying time and in the future.

    #1182561

    chanasara
    Member

    i, too, have been following this thread without posting. anyone who has had any kind of experience (personal, professional etc.)with children that are otd, would hear only your pain and your resolve to the the best for your son. i’m not sure where some people found discrepancies or inconsistencies “between the lines”. if you can muster up the strength to ignore their posts, we would appreciate your continued postings. if you would like to know some “toeles” in this thread here is one thing: although i do not know your son’s full hebrew name, Hashem does. and when i davened on rosh hashana i included him in my tefillos(along with those children that are otd that i do know their name and their mother’s name). if you feel you cannot continue the posts, that is certainly your choice to make and i wish you hatzlacha, strength, clarity and besoros tovos. good shabbos

    #1182562

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Thank-you chansara.

    aries2756-I didn’t think I would post again, but maybe I will try to ignore those who are just trying to “stir the pot”. My new situation is what’s breaking my resolve. My son hasn’t slept home in 3 days. He pops in to shower and grab some potato chips, and then he’s out the door to some unknown destination with friends with no names. It’s taking its toll on me. There’s no way to talk to him, let alone reason with him at this time. He’s just not available for conversation. Last week, I thought things were starting to get better. I took him and his friend shopping, and bought my son clothes that he wants, we were laughing and joking, I got them pizza. I even drove him and a few of his friends someplace one night, dropping my cooking in the middle so he wouldn’t be late. He seemed happy, and it appeared as if we were getting our relationship back to where it used to be. But I haven’t seen him since. He shows no concern for any one but himself. He doesn’t care that we worry, and has no sense of how hurtful he is. Next week we have a simcha, b’ezras Hashem, and I’m embarrased to say that I can’t feel any simcha. He is also sabotaging his acceptance back to school, since he and his friend didn’t go to school today bc they “didn’t feel good”. Meanwhile, my son hasn’t been home since Thursday. If and when he comes home, what’s the best way to handle it? I feel like ignoring him completely…

    #1182563

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    I guess you feel that since you dropped everything to wine and dine your son and buy him clothes you feel hurt that he can’t even let you know where he is when he is not home.

    Your son is at that very selfish rebellious age. But he does need you and deep down I think he feels badly that he is hurting you. You need to be very patient, with time they do mature and grow up! Do NOT allow him to ruin your upcoming simcha!

    We continue to daven that things will improve very soon.

    #1182564

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I am not sure that “ignoring him” is the wrong thing to do. We have touched upon the issue of being considerate and responsible before. You have gone out of your way to show him generosity and kindness and to look away from his bad behavior. There is a difference when a child displays pain and when a child displays indifference or chutzpah.

    Just because he is making different choices that are not in line with being religious that does NOT absolve him of his obligation to be a “mentch”. That has nothing to do with being religious or not, that just has to do with being a good human being. The fact that you went out of your way to do something nice for his friends and he has no appreciation for that or anything else just shows how he is manipulating you and using you. It might be time to take a step back a little and cool off.

    There is no doubt that you love him and you should always let him know that you love him no matter what. But that does not mean that it is ok for him to treat you like a shmatah or to not be accountable for his actions. And just because you are upset with the way that he is behaving towards you that does NOT mean that you don’t love him. Your love doesn’t depend on him being a good boy and his love for you should NOT depend on what he can manipulate out of you.

    Because you love him so much you were willing to do your best to understand his pain and his issues at this time. And even though you might not fully understand them, you chose to do whatever you can to help him through his journey. Even though you do not agree with his choices and even though you don’t approve of what he is wearing or doing, you still looked away and even purchased the items he wanted for him. Again even though it is against your own way of life and you wouldn’t have done it before and wouldn’t do it for the other children. On the other hand, just because he is pulling away from the way of life you raised him in, or he is making different choices in his lifestyle that doesn’t mean that he should love you any less, nor treat you with any less respect than before.

    I would suggest what I have suggested in the past and that is to NOT make it so easy for him to disrespect you. Why does he come home every couple of days? To grab a shower, pick up a change of clean clothing and go out again? Well I suggested to you earlier that you don’t provide laundry service. Get him a hamper in his room and until he is home and ready to work “with you” on being a mentch, which would include either going to school or working there is no reason for you to provide service. If he is old enough to stay out all night and feels he is old enough to take care of himself then he should be taking care of himself. Let him be responsible to launder his own clothes and take care of his own things.

    That is how I would suggest you ignore him. If he stood in front of me I would say hello, but I would not try to start a conversation. If he started shouting at me, I would turn my back and walk away. But I would also say “I love you very much, but I don’t have to put up with this behavior and lack of respect.”

    #1182565

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-thanks, I will try.

    #1182566

    write or wrong
    Participant

    aries2756-sorry I didn’t write sooner. We are getting close to our simcha, while trying to juggle how to handle our son, with how to prepare for visiting family.

    Thanks for your advice. Someone said something interesting to my husband about his OTD kid living at home while being mechalel Shabbos, in ripped blue jeans etc. He said he told his son, “Just like you wouldn’t want anyone to try and make you Haredi, I don’t want anyone trying to make my other kids secular. It is for this reason, I ask you to respect our wishes just like you expect us to respect yours”. His kid is actually complying. Not sure if it would work on everyone, but…

    As far as the coming home issue, I’ve had a few conversations with my son since then, and I think I understand him better. We are trying to get him to consider a dormitory style yeshiva, which I think will solve a lot of issues for both of us. I just hope he stays safe until we can get him settled someplace…if he’ll agree.

    #1182567

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I see you are confused and torn about what I said.

    #1182568

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Mazal tov on your upcoming simcha. hope it will go smoothly. As far as sending your son to a dormitory style yeshiva, it may be a very good thing for him. hatzlocha rabba.

    #1182569

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, how did your husband react to that logic? It is very sound advice and something that I have been trying to relay to you about typical and basic respect and consideration. The choices he is making for himself are his and he expects you to respect them which you are. On the other hand, he doesn’t have to rub them in your face, nor does he have to be disrespectful to you or the rest of the family. Respect is NOT exclusive to the religious or Torah world. Respect is universal and without it, there is very little hope for mankind in general.

    Please continue with your simcha plans and have much nachas from the source of the simcha and the entire mishpacha. You can’t let this child or these issues deter the joy you feel from the other child’s accomplishment or growth. Each child deserve’s their own attention and kudos. Each child deserves their own moment in the spotlight and their own applause. Make sure that they get it. You must put your trepidation aside. You can’t worry whether your OTD decides to show up or not. It would be very special if he cleaned up his act and realized his position in the family and made an appearance, even more so if he participated as a mentch, but the simcha will go one with or without him. Please understand that there are many simchas that take place when kids are away in yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel and parents just can’t afford to keep sending tickets back and forth to bring kids in or the Yeshivas themselves don’t feel that it is good enough reason to allow the bochurim to leave yeshiva and go home to participate. Yet the simcha continues with or without the missing child. In addition, when a family member is ill c”v, the simcha must go on regardless.

    In this case your son is considered a choleh, that’s true, but he also has the choice whether to show up and act appropriately, show up and behave inappropriately or not show up at all. Whatever he chooses, it is out of your hands and not within your control. What is in your control is to be mesameach regardless and to make this the best simcha it can be for your other children. They deserve no less!!! And YOU and YOUR spouse deserve no less. So if you can accept this little bit of advice from me, put this issue to the side and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. Take your nachas from wherever you can and enjoy those moments. Bask in the glory of that nachas and don’t allow the sadness of the reality of your life leak in. You must count your blessing and not look at your loss. Now is the time to count your blessings and realize that simcha breeds simcha. So put a smile on your face and open your heart wide and let the good feelings of happiness and joy take over.

    As far as a dormitory for your son, that is a nice idea if he would agree to do that. I don’t hold out much hope that he will agree. I would try Kesher, Neve and Ner Yaakov because they are more geared to American boys in pain. It is very possible that he would connect with these most caring Rebbeim who truly understand the parsha and have tremendous heart and soul invested in these boys. He might recognize their honesty and mesiras nefesh and that might make all the difference in the world to him. There is a manhig I believe from Kesher that is called “Kahuna”. I am not sure, I met him when he came to NY. The boys really love him. He says he is not a Rav, but he has a following.

    Most important of all, I am so happy to hear that you and your son spoke. That is the most important thing of all. Communication is the key to all relationships and keeping the lines of communication open is the most important thing you can possibly do. How did that happen? That is the most important piece of information that you can relay to the rest of the readers.

    #1182570

    interjection
    Participant

    Ner Yaakov has been closed for a few years already. Ohr Sameach has a similar program though. I believe it’s called Derech.

    #1182571

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaof3-thank-you.

    #1182572

    write or wrong
    Participant
    #1182573

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, that sounds great and encouraging. I hope you feel my HUG across the ocean!!

    #1182574

    write or wrong
    Participant

    aries2756-thanks for the hug. The family is arriving. A few shocked looks when they saw my son. A lot of kiruv going on. Maybe it will help. My son took off his earring temporarily. Hoping it will be permanent.

    So far, things are going okay…

    #1182575

    hudi
    Participant

    Good to hear! Much hatzlacha! We are with you and your family and the rest of our brother in EY under rocket attack.

    #1182577

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Pray for us. The sirens have been going off all day in Ashkelon, Ashdod, Kiryat Malachi, Beer Sheva, Yaffo and Tel Aviv!!!

    #1182578

    write or wrong
    Participant

    My parents/in-laws are upset my son didn’t sleep home since they’re here. My mother-in-law got up every hour during the night, checking his bed. She is very sad, like me. He is hardly with the family at all. It scares me that he’s so wrapped up in his world that he doesn’t even feel anything for us.

    #1182579

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    You must be patient, eventually he will grow up and mature. They don’t stay that way forever. He is just very into himself right now.

    Have you ever considered your son sleeping in his own room? I don’t know if that’s possible in your house, but maybe that is why he avoids sleeping there? Just an idea. Because he seems to be there during the day when his brothers are out of the house.

    #1182580

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-at this point, I would definitely consider giving him his own room. But today was such a disaster, I don’t think he wants to live with us anymore. He was very chutzpadik to me in front of my mother, and she got very upset with him. We had already been having a little disagreement, and he thought he could get my mother to ‘side’ with him. Instead she got quite angry at him, and the whole thing ended pretty badly. I tried to smoothe things over with him a bit later, but he just seems to hate me right now, and I have, once again, become the enemy who ruined his whole life. Between the war outside my home, and the war inside, I feel like I’m functioning in a daze. When you say that one day, he will grow up and mature, what does that mean exactly? That he will no longer see me as as enemy?

    #1182581

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, Ima had a very interesting suggestion, if it is possible to give him his own room, then there is something worth discussing with him.

    On the other hand, he might just want to stay away from the crowd in the house and everyone’s opinion of him. He KNOWS that everyone is disappointed in him. If I knew that everyone was watching my every move I would also be uncomfortable. So that is more of a reason for him to stay away.

    We both understand the sadness that everyone feels, for very good reason. However, it is important to remind them that they didn’t come from near and far to commiserate with you in your sadness and issues. They came to be mishtatef in your simcha and you certainly do deserve to enjoy a simcha after the past half year of stress and pain. If there is any way that you can relay that message and let them know that WE ALL need to daven and have enough bitachon and emunah that Hashem will watch over him while he goes through this dark journey of his. After all it says that Hashem watches of children and fools and right now he fits into both categories.

    On another note, just because he doesn’t want to be frum, that doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t have an education. Would you consider rethinking having him go into a secular or modern school? Maybe when he sees the responsibilities other kids take on vis a vis their education and preparing at this young age for entering the military in just a year or two, it might give him food for thought. Real life is NOT about “hanging” out and being a nobody. Real life, especially in Israel is truly about being “somebody”! Every single Jew counts. Every single Chayal in E”Y is special. He or she are trained to protect and defend their own. They are infused with confidence and self-esteem. They learn to have pride in themselves, in their fellow Jews and in their country. And when they finish their service, they don’t fall by the wayside. Once a soldier in the IDF always a soldier for life. You are part of something huge, you are never alone, and you always have your soldier brothers and sisters and your own self respect.

    That is what the other half do. The other half that are NOT sitting and learning. These are the two choices one has. You are either on the religious side of the coin or you are on the secular side of the coin. These are issues one needs to think about in Israel. Of course there are also religious chayalim but I am speaking in more general terms and in the realities of the situation.

    #1182582

    smc
    Participant

    aries2756: I don’t agree on him going to a Secular School, because the main influence is from friends. But I may be wrong.

    #1182583

    write or wrong
    Participant

    aries2756-we would consider a secular school, college,a trade school, anything where he would learn something, including responsibility. But he considers the school he goes to now as being enough. Between all the days he missed by taking ‘vacation’ with his friends, and now with the school being closed bc of the war, it feels like he’s been out of school more than in school. I tried again to talk to him about a dormitory-like school where it would seem to satisfy his need for more independence, but he’s non commital. When you said “real life is not about hanging out and being a nobody’, you are so right. But my son can’t accept that right now. He would answer you, that that is exactly what he wants to be. Perhaps when his anger subsides and he’s less defensive, he can think things through more clearly and he’ll realize that it’s true.

    #1182584

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, at this point you really “need” to give yourself permission to stay out of the line of fire. You are entitled to a break and entitled to enjoy your simcha. In addition your child is entitled to have his mother be there fully and completely for HIS big simcha and be as understanding and caring with him about his needs, concerns, nerves, excitement, etc., as your oldest son. For these few days the spotlight needs to move away from your eldest and unto the star of the show. Please don’t lose focus and just try to let whatever happens with your oldest not effect you. Please try and implement the tools we tried to teach you to “ignore” the hurt and not allow ANYTHING to affect you or ruin this simcha for you. YOU are in control of your own actions. YOU are in control of your own emotions and if YOU choose NOT to let anything ruin this for you or your current shining star, then it won’t. Nothing is going to change in the few days that this is happening. Your oldest will just have to “buck up” and deal with whatever comes his way at this time.

    Don’t look to get into arguments with him, don’t look to bribe him into doing anything for you. Give him his options and his choices and he will do what he chooses to do. He will regardless of what you say or do. So please make it clear and dummy proof “Chaim, I hope you know that it would mean so much to your brother if you would be there for him at the simcha. No matter what, you are still his brother and he loves you very much. It will hurt him each time he looks at his pictures and he will be reminded that you were not there. We will all feel that an important piece of our family is missing. Please try to remember when you were his age, and you were in his position, what you would have felt like if someone important to you would not have come.”

    #1182585

    write or wrong
    Participant

    smc-I agree with you 100%, but what are our choices right now? Anyway he’s with bad influences. I think at this point, if we could survive the next year with him continuing as things are, it would be better for him to go to the army where he’ll learn responsibility and self discipline. It will be a real eye-opener to him about life itself, and it would mature him and force him to iron out the wrinkles in his personality. Not really sure what he’ll learn at college.

    #1182586

    daniela
    Member

    He is not the sort of boy I would be comfortable with knowing he has a weapon, is he.

    The Torah of truth does not advice that children should be rewarded if they do wrong and does not suggest we forbid the permissible. You can keep following that path and you can be sure things will not improve.

    For all the curious readers, I have children. They are golden and they are smart, even though, of course, far from being even close to their teachers, let alone being compared G-d forbid to the Rishonim, to whom even the gedolim of our generation can’t compare.

    #1182587

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Today’s the day of our simcha, and things are NOT going smoothly. The atmosphere in my home is definitely in sync with the rockets flying over Israel, Hashem Yirachem. aries2756, I have your voice in my head as I face my son’s anger, and am trying to see it not as an attack against us, but rather frustration at having to cope with his own feelings. But he is REALLY challenging my husband to the EXTREME with his anger and foul language. Hashem, save my family….and all Am Yisrael…….

    #1182588

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, Mazal Tov on your Simcha, Today is a huge test for you as it is for K’lal Yisroel. As the rockets and the threat of war hangs over head, what can one rely on? Only their faith, bitachon and emunah in Hashem. B”H, our Chayalim and Chayalos are trained well. They are confident and strong and they have one extra advantage, Yiddishe Seichel. In addition, Hashem is with them as are the teffillos of millions of people who pray for their safety and the safety of Eretz Yisroel.

    In the mean time, life goes on in Israel. That is the most amazing part of the Israeli and Jewish spirit. Jewish life goes on no matter the threat no matter the circumstance. One takes every precaution, as the Torah requires, but life goes on.

    So do what you need to do and understand that each child is going through their own challenge right now. Your “simcha boy” is worried about what might happen on his big day. Your oldest is possibly feeling guilt and confusion right now. Should he give in to his feelings of love and loyalty to his family or should he be the big kahuna to his friends and keep up the uncaring persona he has been showing these past few weeks? If he cleans up and comes to the Simcha, will it demean his stance? If he doesn’t show up will his family hate him? Who knows what is going on in his mind? Maybe it would be ok to tell him everyone deserves a day off. Maybe he could take a day off of his “normal” routine and just chill with the family. Maybe that would help him decide without going through all that emotional inner turmoil.

    #1182589

    aries2756
    Participant

    Daniela, no one is given a gun until they are well trained in discipline and following orders. If they can’t “mentch” out in the army, they don’t walk away with deadly weapons!!!!

    Please use some common sense here.

    SMC, the point is, right now, the main influence right now is from his friends!!! And these friends do NOT care about their education, health, welfare, safety or future. Going back to school, even a secular school, would give him an opportunity to focus on goals and values, get an education and look towards the future. It will give him a “seder hayom”, structure and a sense of discipline that he is currently missing. If you weight the pros and cons of a secular or moder school and what he is doing right now and where he is heading right now, the choice is obvious.

    #1182590

    thehock
    Member

    Mazel tov! Just wanted to wish you much Yiddish nachas always, from all your children.

    #1182591

    write or wrong
    Participant

    aries2756-love your comments!!

    We’re off!!!!!!!

    #1182592

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    WOW – Mazel tov and Hashem should bentch you with Koach and a yeshua.

    #1182593

    Imma613
    Participant

    Mazel Tov! May Hashem give you the strength to deal with every challenge and may you and your entire mishpacha enjoy the simcha. We are with you in spirit from the US.

    #1182594

    write or wrong
    Participant

    the hock, Syag Lchochma, and Imma613-thank-you for all your well wishes. The simcha went well, B’H. It started out a little rough during picture time. My husband was desperately hoping my son would change his clothes from jeans, colored shirt and earring, to something a little more mekubad. But, it didn’t go. The funny thing is, bc of my son’s ‘look’, it added a bit of humor to the pictures, instead of all the serious faces we usually have, there was joking, and a more relaxed atmosphere to the pictures. Hope it was captured. It really was a lot of fun, and I had a great time. My friends were quite supportive, and I discovered a few more moms like me. We all agreed that there is an epidemic of kids going OTD, and that it is almost becoming ‘popular’ to ‘join the crowd’!!. So sad.

    B’H, my son stayed the whole time! I was worried that he wouldn’t, but he brought one of his friends, and that was the magic ingredient. My husband and I were worried beforehand that we wouldn’t be able to be happy for the simcha, and we had to give eachother pep talks all morning (really, all month). But B’H, once the music started, everything started to melt away. Wish you were all there…….

    #1182595

    smc
    Participant

    You are write that it is better for him to go to a secular School.

    Mazal Tov on your Simcha!! May Hashem grant your whole family with Happiness!!

    #1182596

    aries2756
    Participant

    “But B’H, once the music started, everything started to melt away. Wish you were all there…”

    WE WERE!!! You were too busy to notice B”H!

    I am so happy for you. I just want to point out that your son came because he loves you and the family. It doesn’t matter what he wore. The point is that he came, and his friend was interested enough and supportive enough to come as well. They didn’t do anything to take away from the simcha, they enhanced the simcha by respecting all of you enough to show up! B”H.

    Look at it this way. If you had a child in the IDF, he would have come in uniform and he would also NOT have matched the others so the pictures would also not have been so “uniform”. In a few years he will look at the pics and say “Mom, I look like an idiot I can’t believe you LET me come dressed like that!” and then you can all have another good laugh about it.

    #1182597

    Imma613
    Participant

    Baruch Hashem! I am so happy that your simcha went well and that your son even participated happily.

    Aries: Or he may look back at the pictures and say, “Wow look what I was wearing. Thank you Mom for giving me the space to do what I needed to do when I was 16. It helped me to become the person I am today.”

    May the happy moments continue and may Hashem give you and all of klal Yisroel many more smachot!

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