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Baruch Hashem! So happy to hear!
WOW – Mazel Tov!!!!! I’ve been with the coffee room since it opened – during the first year I posted and since then I’m a regular (i.e. a few times daily) lurker. Obviously, I feel like I know everyone here (as well as many long gone) and I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. A few times I’ve almost broken my “I don’t post in the CR” policy just for wanting to reach out to you,”hold your hand”, and throw in my 2 agorot of empathy, chizuk etc. But finally today, when I saw that your son had indeed come to your simcha… and with a friend (somehow I think that’s amazing – a small bridge between his 2 worlds) – and I visualized the family photo (even though I have no idea what you guys look like) black and white with a dash of jeans and that teeny little bit of light bantering that you described, my eyes filled with tears (not for the first time) and I just had to wish you mazel tov ! mazel tov! And like everyone else said – enjoy the simcha, enjoy the family. May Hashem give you koach and simcha to continue being the wonderful mother that it seems to me that you are, to the child of the simcha, to your son who has an earring and wears jeans,and to all of your children. I live here in E”Y so although I don’t know you, somehow I feel a certain closeness and wish that I did. Mazel Tov again….
crgo – what a beautiful post!
CRGO, you must be the glue that holds us all together 🙂
WOW, The right sheliach will keep coming back no matter how many times he is pushed away! When a person sees that one has that kind of determination, they at least give them the courtesy of a conversation.
WOW, i first saw this post about a month ago and have read everything in it..
i have a brother who is not really OTD but is very rebellious and will do anything the opposite of what my parents tell him. i am not saying that he is OTD b/c he still does mitzvos but he does many things that are not in line with our schools/families tenets.
I dont know your son, but from experience with my brother, i would say not to mention anything to him aboout the shlichim that have connected with him unless he mentions it first. He probably does not want you to know about that part of his life yet.
I always daven for people like my brother and your son. I feel like that is the best way we can help them.
WOW, so true.
Here is probably something you don’t know or realize either. The shelichim are probably connecting to some of the other boys as well. Keep breathing and let them do what they know how to do best. You do your part, let them do their part, and keep praying that your son does his!
But here is a question for you, when you say “yeshiva with a dorm” how does he actually fit in to that? I can see that happening with a place like Home Sweet Home and Avi Fishoff because those boys want to change and it is NOT a yeshiva, but he doesn’t want to sit and learn, he doesn’t want to be a part of that life, so what Yeshiva doesn’t require learning and being shomer Torah and Mitzvos? Please don’t convince yourself that it is what he needs right now and set yourself up for a huge disappointment.
kkls45: You didn’t say whether you are a child, teen or adult, but I just wanted to let you know you are not alone; being the sib of an OTD is a huge challenge and as of this moment I don’t see any real effort to address this population in a meaningful way. From experience I can tell you that your steadfast love for your struggling sib is probably the best gift you can give to him. How you would express that love depends on your age and position relative to the brother (older/younger).
Maybe you can ask him to try out the Yeshiva for a week. Then you can get some of the OLDER Bochurim at the Yeshiva to become his friend and help him out, but make sure he doesn’t realize it. You can offer money to the OLDER Bochurim. You should probably do it through the Rosh Yeshiva.
EzratHashem,
I am a teen, and he is a year younger than me. I try to always show him that I love him, but don’t really know if I’m doing it in the right way…for ex when he tells me that he is hanging out with/texting girls, I just pretend that it’s fine with me, but he sees that I would never do that.
WOW,
They are not tring to get any help for him.
This year he started going to a school that he dorms in a few times a week, and it Definately helped get rid of some of the tension in the house.
kkls45: It gets sticky. On the one hand you want to show him your love and on the other hand you don’t want to validate his derech. When he is telling you about girls he is testing you to see how you will react. I think the best reaction is the truthful one; you can tell him you are sad that he is not following the derech of your family and that it is separating him. Any way you can express your love for him and desire to keep him part of the family is good, without actually giving the impression that you approve of what he is doing. I’m afraid I probably know the answer to this already, but are there any mentors/teachers or any adults who seems knowledgeable about this topic that you can speak to in order to know how to interact with your brother?
EzratHashem – thank you so much for all the advice.I wish that there were, but I am the quieter type of girl who doesn’t get close to teachers…I’ve never really spoken to anyone else about this at all. One time I did try to speak to someone older about it, but she doesn’t live near me, so it didn’t work out that well..but besides for that, this is the first time that I’m even opening up a little about this.
I don’t believe that any school of that kind will take full responsibility for him or for where he chooses to be. If he is willing to go it is worth a shot, but don’t put too much hope or faith in it. Every positive step is still a positive step, but every step is still a work in progress and not a solution.
WOW- What a lousy story. And you are right that people do push the kids away but I think there is another half to that story. Those people are not the majority and they are idiots. What often pushes the kids away (from what I personally have been told) is the response others have to those idiots. For example, when a teacher batters a kid emotionally and the parents write it off or let it go, telling the child he should be quiet and be respectful, that puts the seal of approval on the teachers behavior. When parents go the route YOU took – being incensed, running to the park to find the man, going to the man’s house and approaching your Rav – you are then giving your child the message that this man is NOT a Torah Jew. This man is an idiot and you will not tolerate this behavior. There are many parents who would NEVER push their kids away, but whom never put in “enough” efforts validating the injustice or preventing them from repeated pain.
SO GOOD FOR YOU! And may this be a zchus for both that son and all your others.
WOW, You are right it is these kind of idiots that push kids OFF. But more so, they are NOT practicing Yiddishkeit, they are practicing their own selfish need for power. No one has the right to touch your child. You tried to go the nice route by allowing him to as mechila from your child. He refused. Now it is time to follow the Law because this man believes he is above the law. He believes he is and ENFORCER. He is nothing but a bully, and the only way to stop a bully is by teaching him a lesson. I am sure this is NOT the first time he has done this nor will it be the last. He did not hesitate to attack your son and he stood firm in his position NOT to ask mechilah.
It is time to report this to the authorities and keep the rest of the children in the neighborhood safe. He must be stopped. Please remember he didn’t he slap him on the hand, he knocked him to the ground. That is assault. Be a hero for your children. You don’t have to follow through with charges and court afterward, but this man needs to be hauled off to jail.
W0W – if you haven’t already explained to your son, please explain that this man was wrong to assault him. Explain what the man should have done instead.
Write or Wrong, your story is very sad and your son will always remember what happened. I can remember very clearly the awful lemuday kodesh teachers I had when I was young who embarrassed me in public. Boruch Hashem I was blessed with wonderful teachers later on in life.
Unfortunately this is how life is. How about kids who have been abused by parents and teachers. How difficult it must be for them. But as they grow older they hopefully understand that these people are mentally ill and are very wrong.
We must show our kids our love and support especially when experiencing such terrible things. And we must daven and say Tehillim for our children to have good role models and be surrounded with good people.
I am wondering if your older son who is off the derech had an experience that made him so angry at charaidi people. There is so much anger there.
A little OT what would you do if the Rav took the mans side who hit your son saying he was correct
A lot of OTD is caused by the “Rav” or “Rebbe” taking the Perps side
WOW – I hear what you are saying and I don’t mean that the pain isn’t intense, but your reaction will have a lot to do with whether or not your son is angry at an idiot, or at a religious idiot. His actions may still be wrong and hurtful, but it was made obvious that he did not represent Torah. It may not be the case for your son, but I have seen this differentiation make an impact.
I was thinking the same thing, Syag Lchochma. It has to be very clear that this man does NOT represent frumkiet in the slightest!! I hope this man does not daven in the same shul as Write or Wrong. I can only imagine what her son would feel like to daven near this mentally impaired individual. If it were my son I would keep a very close eye and make sure this guy stays very far away from my son.
There are so many Gedolim in Israel, maybe you could bring him for brochos and chizzuk to a Gadol. Just an idea.
Even if a kid does NOT go through any kind of bad experience with another frum Jew, it does not guarantee that he or she will not go off the derech.
Of course as parents we have to try our best but this is a gzar mishamayim.
Unfortunately there are many such “tzaddikim” that are tremendous Talmidai Chachamim but they abuse their wives and children at home.
Now your son will know the hard fact of life. That just because someone is dressed in black and white and all yeshivish does NOT mean he is a ben Torah. He is going to find that out sooner or later and better he find that out while he is still under your roof and in your comforting arms.
Again, I am sorry that he went through an awful experience. Kol Hakavod to both of you for dealing it in an adult manner.
And keep on davening!
WOW, I forgot the hebrew name for those people, but I know the english word for them is Zelots, they are the same people in RMS spitting at an 8 year old girl and in Meir Sharim terrorizing shopkeepers not to sell english books.
I wonder if your older son met such a person and was turned off and didnt tell you.
BTW if It was my kid, and the Rav wouldnt do anything, id call the Police.
One it will make your kid respect you and realize he is a criminal and not a chashov a yid , and its illegal to touch anyones kid thats not your own, Perhaps a few days in Jail and a punishment will make that clear.
@Writeorwrong
So you need to weigh your options. On one hand you have a child whose committment to yidishkeit is shaken due to being a victim of a zealot. Who will now view every frum person as suspect. Worse yet, he will start to doubt your love for him since you didnt go after his attacker with everything you’ve got. And maybe some of his older brothers choices will start making sense.
On the other hand, you are struggling with the desire to protect the status quo because of some perceived bias against “frum yidden” by the police.
The choice is yours
If you kid thinks you did wrong here , I think you REALLY need to call the police . Otherwise you might have another OTD kid as this will simmer.
So what if the police are anti-religious, it doesnt mean they are bad people , maybe it will teach him a lesson.
Finally , I think you need to call the police for yourself. It will give you peace knowing you did the right thing
I dont know if you read other thread or follow trends here in the US, but the issue of abuse is becoming more and more of an issue here in the US.
This man is an ABUSER and must be stopped, because he is a “Talmad Chacham” yellow “Mechalal Shabbos” does not absolve him of being an abuser.
WOW, your job is to be a parent and to protect your children! Just because this guy knows how to learn, that doesn’t mean that he is applying his learning to real day to day life. Where does it say in the Torah that he has a right to hit someone else’s child?
Just because your RAV is afraid to speak to him, and just because your RAV didn’t tell you to go to the police, that doesn’t make him right either. Did he tell you NOT to go to the police? If he didn’t tell you NOT to go to the police then the choice is still in your hands.
It is NOT your concern whether or not the police love this kind of thing. This man loves this kind of thing, going around forcing his way of thinking on others. This is NOT chinuch, this is bullying. A True ben Torha, who wants to teach kids Torah, would go over to a young boy and say “Excuse me, tateleh, may I have a word with you? It pains me to see bochurim acting in such a manner not befitting the kovod of Shabbos. You probably didn’t realize that you were doing something that was not kovodik to Shabbos. I am sure you didn’t realize, but throwing rocks is not something that one does on Shabbos because…….The Gemara says……Do you have any questions about this? I will be happy to learn the sugya with you or answer any questions you have about this inyan. I see that you are a fine boy and you wouldn’t do anything to desecrate the Shabbos, so I felt a need to come and let you know about this. Have a good Shabbos.
That is how a true Ben Torah would handle such a situation if he wanted to give Musar or tochecha. That man was nothing but a bully, and he deserves a taste of his own medicine. Your job WOW is to make sure your children grow up feeling loved and cared for, and know that what they learn in Yeshiva and in your home applies to them and every other Jew.
Maybe you should call all the boys to a meeting, both the younger boys and the older boys and let them know that it is your intention to go to the police and they would have to go with you as witnesses and give their statements. Why not to them as a group. In that way, you will ease your son’s embarrassment in front of his friends because YOU are showing ALL of them that this man was a bully and he did NOT represent TORAH in any way shape or form, and that you are willing to prove it by going to the police. You are also showing that to your older son and his friends. If your Bar Mitzva boy decides to go to the police then do it. If he decides to let it go, then say “OK, I will let it go this time, but I will let him know that if he ever comes within 5 feet of you again I will call the police on him. Maybe even consider getting a restraining order against him to keep him away from your son.” And then follow through. Let him know that since he didn’t think he did anything wrong, and he didn’t apologize, if he ever goes near your son again you will call the police.
I believe this will help both your sons have a different perspective on things.
No. don’t go to the police. yet. Get the names and numbers of all the witnesses in this case. Tell the “Talmid Chocham/abuser” that if he ever lays a hand on your son again you will be forced to go to the police. This time is a warning only, as you understand that he lost it. But if it happens again you will be forced to take action.
If you go to the police, the police will come to him and he will say that he acted in self defense, the boy tripped, etc etc. and make up all sorts of lies to avoid getting in trouble.
He will be upset and give your son looks in shul and your son will be afraid to cross the street. He, his wife, and children will tell everyone how awful you guys are. You have a son who throws rocks on shabbos, an older one who isn’t even frum, and you had the nerve to call police on them. You will be forced to leave your shul or chas v’shalom move!
No, I say don’t go to the police at this point. Don’t make a big machlokes right now. You want to remain in your house, your neighborhood, and for your children to live without fear of these bullies. If it happens another time, then you have evidence that it’s the second time. I would even hire a lawyer and present the so called talmid chocham a letter from the lawyer with names of witnesses with a legal letterhead, etc. but I don’t know your finances.
As for your son, I think you should give him karate lessons. And if the guy EVER starts with him again he will regret it. (I don’t know if there is a frum group for karate lessons or how much it is, but in america many frum kids do it).
If you dont go to the Police he will continue to do it and who knows how many other kids he will drive OTD.
Nobody will take the word of a married adult male over a 14 year old kid
If your son is saying you didn’t do anything, that is exactly what I was referring to when I said that some kids are not as ruined by what was done to them, as by what the reaction of their “protectors” are. I cannot tell you if calling the police is the answer, though the fact that he knocked him down would make that decision easier for me, but my point was that regardless what someone ELSE does to your son, the part that impacts their future, is whether or not they feel they were defended. Even when they are delusional about what they consider being defended. A different kid may have thought confronting the man was more than adequate defense. If this kid doesn’t, that NEEDS to be dealt with so he can have that peace.
Also, I know lots of doctors, psychologists, teachers, managers etc who stink at their jobs even though they are high ranking. There are those in our Torah world as well. They cover themselves in their learning but they don’t internalize it. It is not just Rabbi’s who do this, it is in every aspect of life.
“You want to remain in your house, your neighborhood, and for your children to live without fear of these bullies”
So your solution is to instead give another victory to the “bullies”
The only thing a bully responds to is someone standing up to him. And a visit from the police is not only warranted but necessary!
Sometimes the boat needs to be rocked even if it means a stare or two in shul. And to think that frum yidden would force a family out of the neighboorhood for protecting their child, makes me think that the behavior of certain kanoim is actually standard operating procedure instead of the aberation that all of the appologists claim it to be.
@Writeorwrong
What does that say about the community if wanting your to protect your child from a wild eyed zealot will lead to negative reprecussions because said zealot has the right last name?
This should whole situation should have you asking some very tough questions.
WOW,
I am aware of the reprecussions if you go to the police and I still stand by my statement.
I would not want to live in an area where buillies (or Sikarim) rule the roost, I would consider it an honor to be kicked out from such an area.
Not to be racists, but if you lived in an area near a yeshiva, but there was a vicious anti-semetic gang that lived there too and terrorized residents including yourself, would you stay or would you go.
I really dont think you can seperate the older son from the bully incident, You dont think he didnt see or hear about it and then he hears “the rav said he was a talmid chacham”
And you wonder why he says he doesnt like being Charedi
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