November 20, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1182598
Baruch Hashem! So happy to hear!November 20, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1182600
WOW – Mazel Tov!!!!! I’ve been with the coffee room since it opened – during the first year I posted and since then I’m a regular (i.e. a few times daily) lurker. Obviously, I feel like I know everyone here (as well as many long gone) and I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. A few times I’ve almost broken my “I don’t post in the CR” policy just for wanting to reach out to you,”hold your hand”, and throw in my 2 agorot of empathy, chizuk etc. But finally today, when I saw that your son had indeed come to your simcha… and with a friend (somehow I think that’s amazing – a small bridge between his 2 worlds) – and I visualized the family photo (even though I have no idea what you guys look like) black and white with a dash of jeans and that teeny little bit of light bantering that you described, my eyes filled with tears (not for the first time) and I just had to wish you mazel tov ! mazel tov! And like everyone else said – enjoy the simcha, enjoy the family. May Hashem give you koach and simcha to continue being the wonderful mother that it seems to me that you are, to the child of the simcha, to your son who has an earring and wears jeans,and to all of your children. I live here in E”Y so although I don’t know you, somehow I feel a certain closeness and wish that I did. Mazel Tov again….November 20, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1182601
crgo – what a beautiful post!November 20, 2012 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1182602
CRGO, you must be the glue that holds us all together 🙂November 20, 2012 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1182603
Thank-you smc.November 20, 2012 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1182604
Imma613 and hudi-thanks for your blessings and kind words.
crgo-your post really warmed my heart. I didn’t actually make much of the fact that my son and his friend came, but from your post and aries2756’s, I now think that perhaps it was a kind of victory. B’H we were able to put aside our differences, and come together b’simcha this one evening. I’m touched that you would have the patience to follow this thread from the beginning, and am so happy you decided to write. Hope you will continue..November 25, 2012 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1182607
Well, the simcha is now behind us, and the last of my family leaves today. We hardly saw my son the whole time. He sleeps out almost every night, comes home rarely, or only to sleep. He had no school for a week bc of the war, and he spent all that time wih his chevra. I’m not joking when I say that when I saw him yesterday, I thought he grew about an inch since I last saw him. Various shlichim have reached out to him, but he pushes everyone away in order to be with his chevra. Unless he has the inner strength/self esteem to do things without them, I don’t see how he’ll ever make good decisions. He tells everyone who will listen that he hates the Haredim, but meanwhile his OTD chevra controls him.November 27, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1182608
WOW, The right sheliach will keep coming back no matter how many times he is pushed away! When a person sees that one has that kind of determination, they at least give them the courtesy of a conversation.November 27, 2012 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1182609
aries2756-Baruch Hashem, we just discovered that a few shlichim have connected to our son (unbeknownst to us), and have been in kesher with him. He doesn’t tell us anything, and hates it if we ask. But now the big thing is trying to get him to go to a yeshiva with a dormitory. He is receptive, but will only go with the kids from his chevra. As much as I don’t like it, the truth is this chevra is probably helping him to build up his self esteem. If only he had as many friends in yeshiva as he has now on the street…November 28, 2012 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1182610
WOW, i first saw this post about a month ago and have read everything in it..
i have a brother who is not really OTD but is very rebellious and will do anything the opposite of what my parents tell him. i am not saying that he is OTD b/c he still does mitzvos but he does many things that are not in line with our schools/families tenets.
I dont know your son, but from experience with my brother, i would say not to mention anything to him aboout the shlichim that have connected with him unless he mentions it first. He probably does not want you to know about that part of his life yet.
I always daven for people like my brother and your son. I feel like that is the best way we can help them.November 28, 2012 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1182611
WOW, so true.
Here is probably something you don’t know or realize either. The shelichim are probably connecting to some of the other boys as well. Keep breathing and let them do what they know how to do best. You do your part, let them do their part, and keep praying that your son does his!
But here is a question for you, when you say “yeshiva with a dorm” how does he actually fit in to that? I can see that happening with a place like Home Sweet Home and Avi Fishoff because those boys want to change and it is NOT a yeshiva, but he doesn’t want to sit and learn, he doesn’t want to be a part of that life, so what Yeshiva doesn’t require learning and being shomer Torah and Mitzvos? Please don’t convince yourself that it is what he needs right now and set yourself up for a huge disappointment.November 28, 2012 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1182612
kkls45: You didn’t say whether you are a child, teen or adult, but I just wanted to let you know you are not alone; being the sib of an OTD is a huge challenge and as of this moment I don’t see any real effort to address this population in a meaningful way. From experience I can tell you that your steadfast love for your struggling sib is probably the best gift you can give to him. How you would express that love depends on your age and position relative to the brother (older/younger).November 28, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1182613
Maybe you can ask him to try out the Yeshiva for a week. Then you can get some of the OLDER Bochurim at the Yeshiva to become his friend and help him out, but make sure he doesn’t realize it. You can offer money to the OLDER Bochurim. You should probably do it through the Rosh Yeshiva.November 28, 2012 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1182614
kkls45-I agree with you completely. I always tell my husband, after we’ve spent hours brainstorming what to do, that there really is only one thing we can do, and that is to daven. I hope your parents are trying to get some help for your brother, before things, chas v’shalom change for the worse. A rebellious child is more at risk, and should have someone to talk to.
aries2756-I don’t mean he should go to a regular yeshiva with a dorm. Apparently, there are many low pressure ‘yeshivas’ where he doesn’t have to wear a kipa, he can wear jeans and an earring, and they don’t put any pressure on them to observe mitzvos. They learn a minimum amount of Torah, since that’s about all they can tolerate, and the rest is secular studies and classes that teach them a profession. I almost believe he would study Torah an entire day, if all the kids in his chevra were doing it. He is ‘following the crowd’, but every once in a while, I try to insert the voice of reason by showing him how these kids are all doing what’s good for them, even at his expense, so shouldn’t he do what’s good for him? He just has to figure out what that is exactly.November 28, 2012 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1182615
smc-that’s an interesting idea, although I don’t think my son would even go look at a yeshiva unless friends from his chevra came with him. Also, he’s still going to the other yeshiva, and he can’t miss any more days.November 30, 2012 1:17 am at 1:17 am #1182616
I am a teen, and he is a year younger than me. I try to always show him that I love him, but don’t really know if I’m doing it in the right way…for ex when he tells me that he is hanging out with/texting girls, I just pretend that it’s fine with me, but he sees that I would never do that.
They are not tring to get any help for him.
This year he started going to a school that he dorms in a few times a week, and it Definately helped get rid of some of the tension in the house.November 30, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #1182617
kkls45: It gets sticky. On the one hand you want to show him your love and on the other hand you don’t want to validate his derech. When he is telling you about girls he is testing you to see how you will react. I think the best reaction is the truthful one; you can tell him you are sad that he is not following the derech of your family and that it is separating him. Any way you can express your love for him and desire to keep him part of the family is good, without actually giving the impression that you approve of what he is doing. I’m afraid I probably know the answer to this already, but are there any mentors/teachers or any adults who seems knowledgeable about this topic that you can speak to in order to know how to interact with your brother?November 30, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1182618
EzratHashem – thank you so much for all the advice.I wish that there were, but I am the quieter type of girl who doesn’t get close to teachers…I’ve never really spoken to anyone else about this at all. One time I did try to speak to someone older about it, but she doesn’t live near me, so it didn’t work out that well..but besides for that, this is the first time that I’m even opening up a little about this.November 30, 2012 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1182619
I don’t believe that any school of that kind will take full responsibility for him or for where he chooses to be. If he is willing to go it is worth a shot, but don’t put too much hope or faith in it. Every positive step is still a positive step, but every step is still a work in progress and not a solution.December 2, 2012 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1182621
It doesn’t look like my son is going to continue with yeshiva at all. He hasn’t gone to school for a few days, and I don’t know if he’s going back. He says he prefers a yeshiva with a dorm, but he hasn’t really done anything to get into one. He looks depressed, but he won’t open up. I keep asking him, what can I do to help him? I am so desperate to help him, but he pushes us away and stays out all night with his friends. I don’t think he’s happy with them, bc he comes home angry and short tempered.
As an aside, I want to tell you what happened to my other son this past Shabbos. I am digressing for a reason, bc it shows how in some ways, WE are responsible for PUSHING kids OTD. My other Bar Mitzvah boy was playing in the park on Shabbos, which was packed with kids. The park is next to a Shul on one side, and an open valley on the other. Apparently, my son was throwing rocks into the valley. A religious man came over to my son and screamed at him that he was mechalel Shabbos. He then hit my son hard in the back of his head, whereby he fell to the ground. When my son got up, he grabbed him by the collar of his shirt and pushed him, so that he fell close to the edge of the valley (according to 5 eyewitnesses). By this time, he was crying, and some kids belonging to my OTD son’s chevra, came to his rescue, and helped my son away from this man. Needless to say, I am beside myself. My husband and I went to the park to find this man, who apparently had left. I spoke to numerous kids, who all said the same story as my son. Truthfully, I really just wanted to call the police.
After we calmed down and Shabbos was over, we tried to meet with the Rav of our kehilla, who wasn’t available until later today. B’ezras Hashem, we will speak to him later. In the meantime, my husband spoke with his Rav, who told us to try to resolve this with the man. We went to his home last night, and spoke to him at length. He very, matter of factly, admitted hitting my son bc he was mechalel Shabbos.
My husband tried to explain to this “Talmid Chacham” that what he did was worse than what my 14 year old did. He just kept saying that my son was mechalel Shabbos. He never even considered trying to explain to my son that he was doing something wrong…or to speak to my husband about it. As my husband was so calmly speaking to him, he just kept saying “I hear you”, but never once did he say “you’re right, I understand, I made a mistake”. In fact, he said the opposite. He said, by halacha, HE WAS RIGHT TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it any wonder that our kids hate religion and are going off the derech? I am only a protective mother, and I can’t do anything to change the way some people see things. But there is something terribly wrong with the beliefs of some people, and perhaps their Rav, or SOMEBODY should speak to them about the terrible damage they may cause someone. They may think that all their hours of studying gemara is winning them big points in shamayim, but they may find out once they get there, that they killed a few yiddishe neshamas along the way, Hashem yirachem. I don’t want this thread to turn into ‘religion/religious bashing’, but I do want to bring attention to the fact that we need to address some of the causes of kids going OTD, or we will just be running on a treadmill, trying endlessly to save our innocent children from the terrible mistakes we are making, Hashem help us.December 2, 2012 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1182622
WOW- What a lousy story. And you are right that people do push the kids away but I think there is another half to that story. Those people are not the majority and they are idiots. What often pushes the kids away (from what I personally have been told) is the response others have to those idiots. For example, when a teacher batters a kid emotionally and the parents write it off or let it go, telling the child he should be quiet and be respectful, that puts the seal of approval on the teachers behavior. When parents go the route YOU took – being incensed, running to the park to find the man, going to the man’s house and approaching your Rav – you are then giving your child the message that this man is NOT a Torah Jew. This man is an idiot and you will not tolerate this behavior. There are many parents who would NEVER push their kids away, but whom never put in “enough” efforts validating the injustice or preventing them from repeated pain.
SO GOOD FOR YOU! And may this be a zchus for both that son and all your others.December 2, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1182623
WOW, You are right it is these kind of idiots that push kids OFF. But more so, they are NOT practicing Yiddishkeit, they are practicing their own selfish need for power. No one has the right to touch your child. You tried to go the nice route by allowing him to as mechila from your child. He refused. Now it is time to follow the Law because this man believes he is above the law. He believes he is and ENFORCER. He is nothing but a bully, and the only way to stop a bully is by teaching him a lesson. I am sure this is NOT the first time he has done this nor will it be the last. He did not hesitate to attack your son and he stood firm in his position NOT to ask mechilah.
It is time to report this to the authorities and keep the rest of the children in the neighborhood safe. He must be stopped. Please remember he didn’t he slap him on the hand, he knocked him to the ground. That is assault. Be a hero for your children. You don’t have to follow through with charges and court afterward, but this man needs to be hauled off to jail.December 2, 2012 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1182625
Syag Lchochma-I agree that if the parents don’t give their child the right reaction, it could have an adverse affect on the child. But I think that even the incident itself can be damaging enough sometimes, regardless of the parent’s reaction. This man embarrassed my son in front of all the kids at the park. Even if I give my son an empathetic, supportive reaction, I can’t undo the embarrassment he felt.December 3, 2012 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1182626
W0W – if you haven’t already explained to your son, please explain that this man was wrong to assault him. Explain what the man should have done instead.December 3, 2012 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1182627
Write or Wrong, your story is very sad and your son will always remember what happened. I can remember very clearly the awful lemuday kodesh teachers I had when I was young who embarrassed me in public. Boruch Hashem I was blessed with wonderful teachers later on in life.
Unfortunately this is how life is. How about kids who have been abused by parents and teachers. How difficult it must be for them. But as they grow older they hopefully understand that these people are mentally ill and are very wrong.
We must show our kids our love and support especially when experiencing such terrible things. And we must daven and say Tehillim for our children to have good role models and be surrounded with good people.
I am wondering if your older son who is off the derech had an experience that made him so angry at charaidi people. There is so much anger there.December 3, 2012 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1182628
A little OT what would you do if the Rav took the mans side who hit your son saying he was correct
A lot of OTD is caused by the “Rav” or “Rebbe” taking the Perps sideDecember 3, 2012 1:17 am at 1:17 am #1182629
WOW – I hear what you are saying and I don’t mean that the pain isn’t intense, but your reaction will have a lot to do with whether or not your son is angry at an idiot, or at a religious idiot. His actions may still be wrong and hurtful, but it was made obvious that he did not represent Torah. It may not be the case for your son, but I have seen this differentiation make an impact.December 3, 2012 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1182630
I was thinking the same thing, Syag Lchochma. It has to be very clear that this man does NOT represent frumkiet in the slightest!! I hope this man does not daven in the same shul as Write or Wrong. I can only imagine what her son would feel like to daven near this mentally impaired individual. If it were my son I would keep a very close eye and make sure this guy stays very far away from my son.
There are so many Gedolim in Israel, maybe you could bring him for brochos and chizzuk to a Gadol. Just an idea.December 3, 2012 6:40 am at 6:40 am #1182631
aries2756, hudi,zahavasdad, Syag Lchochma and Imaofthree: Yes, we explained to our son how wrong it was what this man did, and we went to great lengths to demonstrate this as well, by speaking to this man directly as well as 2 Rabbonim. But I would hate to have to depend upon the possibility of my son finding more appropriate role models later in life, in order to undo the distorted, abusive impression of religious people this man gave my child. Of course, that is what has to happen, that he’ll see the ‘bigger picture’, that not all religious people are like this, that this was, in fact, a sick man and that his “Torah” is actually no Torah at all. But look at how much suffering my other son (and us!) are going through, waiting for HIM to see the bigger picture. He also had some negative experiences, and there’s no guarrantee that he will come out with his yiddishkeit intact. Baruch Hashem Imaofthree, you were able to do it. I can only pray that Hashem will send the right shaliach to help my son as well.
The 2nd part of this story is that we did go speak to the kehilla Rav, who was horrified at what happened. He wanted us to make sure that my son knows this man was wrong, and that he is completely against what this man did. Yet, he said that there is NO SOLUTION! When I asked him to go speak to this man, he said that he could, but it wouldn’t do any good. He said that these people don’t listen to anybody. To make it worse, you wouldn’t believe it, but he is a very chashuva Talmid Chacham. It’s enough to challenge your own yiddishkeit…..December 3, 2012 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1182632
Even if a kid does NOT go through any kind of bad experience with another frum Jew, it does not guarantee that he or she will not go off the derech.
Of course as parents we have to try our best but this is a gzar mishamayim.
Unfortunately there are many such “tzaddikim” that are tremendous Talmidai Chachamim but they abuse their wives and children at home.
Now your son will know the hard fact of life. That just because someone is dressed in black and white and all yeshivish does NOT mean he is a ben Torah. He is going to find that out sooner or later and better he find that out while he is still under your roof and in your comforting arms.
Again, I am sorry that he went through an awful experience. Kol Hakavod to both of you for dealing it in an adult manner.
And keep on davening!December 3, 2012 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1182633
WOW, I forgot the hebrew name for those people, but I know the english word for them is Zelots, they are the same people in RMS spitting at an 8 year old girl and in Meir Sharim terrorizing shopkeepers not to sell english books.
I wonder if your older son met such a person and was turned off and didnt tell you.
BTW if It was my kid, and the Rav wouldnt do anything, id call the Police.
One it will make your kid respect you and realize he is a criminal and not a chashov a yid , and its illegal to touch anyones kid thats not your own, Perhaps a few days in Jail and a punishment will make that clear.December 3, 2012 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1182634
Imaofthree-I like the way you put it, that if he has to learn the hard facts of life, it’s better that it happened in our arms. Thanks.December 3, 2012 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1182637
zahavasdad-In a way, I’m still torn as to whether or not I should have called the police and opened a tik on him. I know my son feels badly that we didn’t do it, bc in his (immature) eyes, we ‘didn’t do anything”. He got hit 2 times, was pushed and embarrased in front of dozens of kids, and all this guy got back was that we ‘spoke to the Rav”. In his eyes, it wasn’t equal. Yet I know the police just love this kind of stuff, bc they are already so against the religious.December 3, 2012 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1182638
So you need to weigh your options. On one hand you have a child whose committment to yidishkeit is shaken due to being a victim of a zealot. Who will now view every frum person as suspect. Worse yet, he will start to doubt your love for him since you didnt go after his attacker with everything you’ve got. And maybe some of his older brothers choices will start making sense.
On the other hand, you are struggling with the desire to protect the status quo because of some perceived bias against “frum yidden” by the police.
The choice is yoursDecember 3, 2012 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1182639
If you kid thinks you did wrong here , I think you REALLY need to call the police . Otherwise you might have another OTD kid as this will simmer.
So what if the police are anti-religious, it doesnt mean they are bad people , maybe it will teach him a lesson.
Finally , I think you need to call the police for yourself. It will give you peace knowing you did the right thingDecember 3, 2012 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1182640
I dont know if you read other thread or follow trends here in the US, but the issue of abuse is becoming more and more of an issue here in the US.
This man is an ABUSER and must be stopped, because he is a “Talmad Chacham” yellow “Mechalal Shabbos” does not absolve him of being an abuser.December 3, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1182641
WOW, your job is to be a parent and to protect your children! Just because this guy knows how to learn, that doesn’t mean that he is applying his learning to real day to day life. Where does it say in the Torah that he has a right to hit someone else’s child?
Just because your RAV is afraid to speak to him, and just because your RAV didn’t tell you to go to the police, that doesn’t make him right either. Did he tell you NOT to go to the police? If he didn’t tell you NOT to go to the police then the choice is still in your hands.
It is NOT your concern whether or not the police love this kind of thing. This man loves this kind of thing, going around forcing his way of thinking on others. This is NOT chinuch, this is bullying. A True ben Torha, who wants to teach kids Torah, would go over to a young boy and say “Excuse me, tateleh, may I have a word with you? It pains me to see bochurim acting in such a manner not befitting the kovod of Shabbos. You probably didn’t realize that you were doing something that was not kovodik to Shabbos. I am sure you didn’t realize, but throwing rocks is not something that one does on Shabbos because…….The Gemara says……Do you have any questions about this? I will be happy to learn the sugya with you or answer any questions you have about this inyan. I see that you are a fine boy and you wouldn’t do anything to desecrate the Shabbos, so I felt a need to come and let you know about this. Have a good Shabbos.
That is how a true Ben Torah would handle such a situation if he wanted to give Musar or tochecha. That man was nothing but a bully, and he deserves a taste of his own medicine. Your job WOW is to make sure your children grow up feeling loved and cared for, and know that what they learn in Yeshiva and in your home applies to them and every other Jew.
Maybe you should call all the boys to a meeting, both the younger boys and the older boys and let them know that it is your intention to go to the police and they would have to go with you as witnesses and give their statements. Why not to them as a group. In that way, you will ease your son’s embarrassment in front of his friends because YOU are showing ALL of them that this man was a bully and he did NOT represent TORAH in any way shape or form, and that you are willing to prove it by going to the police. You are also showing that to your older son and his friends. If your Bar Mitzva boy decides to go to the police then do it. If he decides to let it go, then say “OK, I will let it go this time, but I will let him know that if he ever comes within 5 feet of you again I will call the police on him. Maybe even consider getting a restraining order against him to keep him away from your son.” And then follow through. Let him know that since he didn’t think he did anything wrong, and he didn’t apologize, if he ever goes near your son again you will call the police.
I believe this will help both your sons have a different perspective on things.December 3, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1182642
No. don’t go to the police. yet. Get the names and numbers of all the witnesses in this case. Tell the “Talmid Chocham/abuser” that if he ever lays a hand on your son again you will be forced to go to the police. This time is a warning only, as you understand that he lost it. But if it happens again you will be forced to take action.
If you go to the police, the police will come to him and he will say that he acted in self defense, the boy tripped, etc etc. and make up all sorts of lies to avoid getting in trouble.
He will be upset and give your son looks in shul and your son will be afraid to cross the street. He, his wife, and children will tell everyone how awful you guys are. You have a son who throws rocks on shabbos, an older one who isn’t even frum, and you had the nerve to call police on them. You will be forced to leave your shul or chas v’shalom move!
No, I say don’t go to the police at this point. Don’t make a big machlokes right now. You want to remain in your house, your neighborhood, and for your children to live without fear of these bullies. If it happens another time, then you have evidence that it’s the second time. I would even hire a lawyer and present the so called talmid chocham a letter from the lawyer with names of witnesses with a legal letterhead, etc. but I don’t know your finances.
As for your son, I think you should give him karate lessons. And if the guy EVER starts with him again he will regret it. (I don’t know if there is a frum group for karate lessons or how much it is, but in america many frum kids do it).December 3, 2012 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1182643
crisisoftheweek, zahavasdad and aries2756-personally, I agree with all of you and have my fingers on the dial ready to call the police. The only things that are stopping me are as follows:
1. My husband doesn’t agree we should call the police.
2. Neither Rav gave us permission to call the police, and my husband will not do it without permission from the Rav.
3. This man is very powerful over here, and has a lot of proteksia from high places. I wouldn’t put it past him to ‘get even’.
aries2756-I loved the way you put things, and you are right, a real Talmid Chacham would have spoken in a more loving/helpful way.
Would you all have the same advice if this man (for example) was the grandson of some BIG famous Rav????December 3, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1182644
If you dont go to the Police he will continue to do it and who knows how many other kids he will drive OTD.
Nobody will take the word of a married adult male over a 14 year old kidDecember 3, 2012 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1182645
Imaofthree-when my husband and I met with him motsei Shabbos, at some point, he had enough of our complaints against him, and he said, “So what do you want now?”. My husband said he wanted him to apologize to my son, but I said, “I’ll tell you what I want. I want to call the police” at which he threw me a surprised look. I think the threat was obvious, and if he dares to touch any of my children again, I won’t wait for permission from anyone to take this to the limit. I do have the names of the witnesses, as we all live in the same neighborhood. There is another option other than going to the police, and that is to take him to a Beis Din. Don’t know yet what to do. I guess we’ll see if he has the decency (derech eretz???) to apologize to my son.December 3, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1182646
If your son is saying you didn’t do anything, that is exactly what I was referring to when I said that some kids are not as ruined by what was done to them, as by what the reaction of their “protectors” are. I cannot tell you if calling the police is the answer, though the fact that he knocked him down would make that decision easier for me, but my point was that regardless what someone ELSE does to your son, the part that impacts their future, is whether or not they feel they were defended. Even when they are delusional about what they consider being defended. A different kid may have thought confronting the man was more than adequate defense. If this kid doesn’t, that NEEDS to be dealt with so he can have that peace.
Also, I know lots of doctors, psychologists, teachers, managers etc who stink at their jobs even though they are high ranking. There are those in our Torah world as well. They cover themselves in their learning but they don’t internalize it. It is not just Rabbi’s who do this, it is in every aspect of life.December 3, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1182647
“You want to remain in your house, your neighborhood, and for your children to live without fear of these bullies”
So your solution is to instead give another victory to the “bullies”
The only thing a bully responds to is someone standing up to him. And a visit from the police is not only warranted but necessary!
Sometimes the boat needs to be rocked even if it means a stare or two in shul. And to think that frum yidden would force a family out of the neighboorhood for protecting their child, makes me think that the behavior of certain kanoim is actually standard operating procedure instead of the aberation that all of the appologists claim it to be.December 3, 2012 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1182648
Syag Lchochma-I really hear what you are saying, and I agree with everything you say. I’m wondering myself, why I’ve backed down a bit from wanting to call the police. One thing I think, and that is that if this happened in NY, I’d feel much stronger about it, and would most definitely go to the police. I’m not exactly sure why I feel differently about it living over here. Maybe bc it’s too close to home. But even so, I haven’t yet ruled out the possibility of going to the police. And if I decide not to go to the police, I do plan on going to a Beis Din.December 3, 2012 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1182649
crisisoftheweek-Imaofthree has a good sense of what the repercussions would be if we went to the police. The truth is, it’s not so simple. There would be a lot of backlash, and since this man is a part of a community who tend to be quite vocal and, dare I say, physical, I’m not sure I wouldn’t be rocking my own boat moreso than his.
With all this said, I still haven’t ruled it out.December 3, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1182650
BTW, to get back to the main topic of my son who went OTD, he just quit school.
When it rains, it pours………December 3, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1182651
What does that say about the community if wanting your to protect your child from a wild eyed zealot will lead to negative reprecussions because said zealot has the right last name?
This should whole situation should have you asking some very tough questions.December 3, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1182652
I am aware of the reprecussions if you go to the police and I still stand by my statement.
I would not want to live in an area where buillies (or Sikarim) rule the roost, I would consider it an honor to be kicked out from such an area.
Not to be racists, but if you lived in an area near a yeshiva, but there was a vicious anti-semetic gang that lived there too and terrorized residents including yourself, would you stay or would you go.December 3, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1182654December 3, 2012 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1182656
I really dont think you can seperate the older son from the bully incident, You dont think he didnt see or hear about it and then he hears “the rav said he was a talmid chacham”
And you wonder why he says he doesnt like being Charedi
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