Tagged: Chometz Pesach
June 5, 2023 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2195853
Does anyone know of a grocery store in Lakewood that completely gets rid of all their Chometz before Pesach and does not rely on Mechiras Chometz?
In most stores, they have Chometz from before Pesach which you can tell by the production date, so I end up having to throw out the Chometz purchased by accident and I would rather buy somewhere that does not carry Chmetz from before Pesach at all.
Thank youJune 5, 2023 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2196164
looks like another chumra making people to throw away the food Hashem sent their way. Why not give it to some sheigetz in Lakewood that holds by mechiras chometz?June 5, 2023 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2196181tunaisafishParticipant
AAQ: some zheigitz in lakewood? Midos AlertJune 5, 2023 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2196189
Yes its call the troller supermarketJune 6, 2023 6:49 am at 6:49 am #2196315takahmamashParticipant
You must mean that guy wearing the blue shirt.June 6, 2023 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2196344
Rav Reisman points out that he doesn’t understand Jews who davka purchase from goyim post pesach
Buying in a Jewish store ie Supporting a Jew is a d’oraysah
Not selling chametz is a chumra
The chumra doesn’t override a d’oraysah
It is one of many misplaced prioritiesJune 6, 2023 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2196349simcha613Participant
I find it hard to believe that there would be a grocery store that can afford to do that. Relying on mechras chameitz as an individual is certainly controversial… but a store using it is less problematic because I think that’s what the original institutions was for (I think it was for whiskey sellers) because the loss of destroying all that chameitz would have been overwhelming.June 6, 2023 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2196355
It is hard to imagine how such a store could exist .
Please do teshuva for throwing out perfectly fine food purchased from ehrliche people who follow halachaJune 6, 2023 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2196732☕️coffee addictParticipant
“Yes its call the troller supermarket“
One way to spot a troll is if they haven’t posted anything from n the CR since they opened their account (3 years and 11 months ago) and they start by posting a new thread that could be inflammatoryJune 7, 2023 9:25 am at 9:25 am #2197063Thoughtful ResponseParticipant
This appears to me to be a chumra born in the Lakewood mentality. Move outside the east coast and everyone buys from the same handful of stores that supply the entire community…and they all sell their chometz.
Not to judge, as to each his own. I just wonder how the Rabbonim of 100, or even 50 years ago would view the “chumra” culture of today. Many Rabbonim have been outspoken about the added chumras which add stress and anxiety to an already overwhelming modern society.June 7, 2023 11:02 am at 11:02 am #2197137
Those calling not selling chometz a chumra… You do realize that it’s not in the gemara, and was introduced relatively recently, to be able to sell it… The Gaon was very, very against it. Why is not relying on the kulah now a chumra?June 7, 2023 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2197367
Because the logistics have completely changed. Even if such a store is found, who are the suppliers?June 7, 2023 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #2197545
Because this isnt about not relying on the sale
This is not allowing others to rely on it.
Rabbi Reisman is very very very* opposed to this “Chumra”
buying from a yid is a mitzva deoraysa.
chamatz shevar al Hapesach is a knas derabanan. It is absurd (his words) to suggest that Chazal would issue a knas agasint this fellow who follows all Gedolim who allow mechira. He goes to his Rav sells his chometz and surprise chazal issue a knas???
Aye the Gra?
Ok so if you are very medakdek on following the Gra, maybe it makes sense. but if not to adopt this chumra is “absurd”
As to why the Gra held it. Who knows
1) not all things in Maaseh Rav are reliable.
2) Maybe he thought the mechira wasnt done well in his locale
3) Practicly it wasnt the same people didnt have storehouses with product as much as today.
4) furthermore might be better off buying from yid today. You know he sold his product, it is deffinitly NOT chometz sheavar al Hapesach when buying from goy you don’t know who he bought from over yom Tov could be a Jewish distributor
*I use all those verys because I heard it from him many times and he used strong language. Do you have a source that the Gra was “very very against it” Maaseh Rav says he didnt buyJune 7, 2023 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2197578Reb EliezerParticipantJune 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197587GadolhadorahParticipant
Eat only potatoes year-round and avoid the machlokes.June 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197670
I am curious where you got that “not in the gemarah” part
Mishna peschim 2:1
Yerushalmi perek 2
and then there is the famous toseftaJune 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197677yuda the maccabiParticipant
selling chometz is not something new, its brought down in the shulchan aruch siman 448
the source is a tosefta and therefore chazal
and the biur hagra there does not write anything against selling it
the mishna brurah does not write against selling chometz
and therefore it is a chumra and its a chumra against chazal
if a person wants to be machmir not to sell thats one thing but after it was sold the halacha is its allowed (supposing the sale was done correctly)
please see the aruch hashulchan y”d siman 116 were he says that someone who is machmir in a place that the poiskim were meikel could be considered minus (theres also a maharshal brought down in hilchos busur vichuluv that says the same)
this is all except for the issur of baal tashchis for throwing out food that is halachically permitted
– at least donate it to the less fortunateJune 7, 2023 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #2197761
My apologies, i should have been clearer – selling is definitely with a precedent. The issue the Gaon had was with selling it while it remains in the jews house/store.June 7, 2023 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #2197762☕️coffee addictParticipant
“The chamets sold before Pesach should be batel in the chametz bought after Pesach.“
כל קבוע כמחצה על מחצה דמי
😂😂😂😂June 7, 2023 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2197796
“The issue the Gaon had was with selling it while it remains in the jews house/store.”
I’m not sure how you know that. As Far as I know the Gra did not write anywhere opposing the sale, including in his comments to Shulchan Aruch (448:3) where sale is mentioned.
Masseh Rav does mention that he avoided buying from Chometz that had been sold, thoughg it does not say why.
Do you have a source indicating that he was “very, very against it.”?
(To be clear I’m not saying he wasnt agaisnt it, (though “very very” seems like a stretch) I am saying that just becasue he was agasint it does not mean this is something that people should follow today for all the reasons I shared from Rabbi Reisman in previous post)June 8, 2023 12:00 am at 12:00 am #2197803
Ubiq,, I’ll look it up when i get a chance; i remember learning it when we learned the sugya years agoJune 8, 2023 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2197856anonymous JewParticipant
Just curious. Do those who hold with the Gra’s position on selling chametz also hold with his position that there is nothing wrong with eating gebrochts on Pesach?June 8, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2197888
There is no bittul b’rov here for every possible reason.June 8, 2023 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2197918
Why is anyone taking this troll seriously?June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197976
I don’t know why my post with the sources is not being posted…i found the Gaon, and othersJune 9, 2023 8:12 am at 8:12 am #2198233
I would have like to see the Gra.
Only reference I’m familiar with is Maaseh RavJune 11, 2023 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2198607
I think it could be worth it for a store to get customers by giving them what they want. Many people buy from Goyim only because they can’t find a Jewish store that is willing to supply them with what they want. Attempting to sell someone something that they do not want is sinnas chanam as well as bad from a business perspective. You can’t refuse to supply the products that your customer wants and then complain when he takes his business elsewhere.
מי שנוהג באיזה דבר איסור מכח שסובר שדינא הוא הכי או מכח חומרא שהחמיר על עצמו מותר לאכול עם אחרים שנוהגין בו היתר דודאי לא יאכילוהו דבר שהוא נוהג בו איסור (rama yore deah 119)
אע”פ שנחלקו בית שמאי ובית הלל מודעי להו ופרשי דאהבה וריעות נוהגים זה (Yevamos 14B)
It doesn’t make a difference if the chumra is right or wrong, a consumer should be allowed to only purchase and eat what they want.June 11, 2023 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #2198625June 11, 2023 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #2198647
You should be that person
Don’t be one of those guys on the sidelines who tells everyone else what they are doing wrong
Get proactive. Start that big Lakewood grocery that caters to your crowd. I am sure you will make a fortune!June 11, 2023 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #2198687Reb EliezerParticipant
This is a derabonon so I don’t know if the rule of being half on fixed bitul applies.June 11, 2023 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2198692
I will just buy from Walmart. They are also cheaper on basics like flour, noodles, etc.
I just would rather give a yid parnassah but only if he gives me the products that I want.
It looks like no one knows of such a store, so I’ll get it from Walmart.
It’s that simple – if you sell to a Goy before Pesach, I’ll buy from a Goy after Pesach.June 11, 2023 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2198719
> I just would rather give a yid parnassah but only if he gives me the products that I want.
“I want” seems like such a goyishe attitude, you should probably go to walmart lehathila!
Posters here raised good objections that this chumra is a kula towards the Jewish sellers, so you should probably ask a Rav …
In defense of the poster though – if you are in a place where a Jewish grocer raises prices thanks to the monopoly in the Jewish commuity, you might be justified going to walmart not only because it is 20% cheaper for you, but in order to break the excessive pricing for the whole community.June 12, 2023 12:35 am at 12:35 am #2198740
AAQ, “so you should probably ask a Rav …”
You don’t believe in that.June 12, 2023 6:17 am at 6:17 am #2198786
Dear Reb Eliezer,
I could give you ten solid reasons why bitul doesn’t apply.
But one will suffice to eradicate every possible retort.
If the chometz would have been properly sold before pesach there would be no issur. We don’t ever use bitul after we intentionally created an issur. דבר שיש לו מתיריםJune 12, 2023 6:17 am at 6:17 am #2198787
You don’t understand retail at all!June 12, 2023 6:18 am at 6:18 am #2198788
Gives you the products that you want?!?
Go be a butcher and let’s see if you keep selling only kosher.June 12, 2023 6:37 am at 6:37 am #2198837
Rav Reisman has discussed that issue also
I do not remember his cheshban and the actual percentage #
But certainly if there are significant differences in prices there is no issue
About 10 years ago I bought pesach plastics that cover my counter tops. I have a small kitchen and a Yiddish company wanted $1200 to make the plastics. I had a goyish company make them for less than $200.
I didn’t lose any sleep over that oneJune 12, 2023 9:05 am at 9:05 am #2198852anonymous JewParticipant
Most supermarkets operate on a very thin profit margin. If a shomer shabbos grocery can afford to throw away everything in his store, he has to be marking up the wholesale prices considerably.June 12, 2023 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2198874
Of the ten possible reasons bitul wouldnt apply you gave an incorrect one
chametz shevar al Hapesach is NOT a davar sheyesh lo matirin. IT will never become mutar. In fact if you mixed up (after purchasing so no longer kavua) chometz shevar al hapesch it WOULD be batul (if not davar shebeminyan, chatichha arui lhiskabed etc)
Davar sheyesh lo matirin doesnt apply if the matir is retroactive. We dont say neveila is davar sheyesh lo matirin becasue you could have shechted it.June 12, 2023 11:52 am at 11:52 am #2198944
common > AAQ, “so you should probably ask a Rav …”
You don’t believe in that.
Stop trolling me. I explained already – I do not believe in Daas Torah. Why? Because I asked the Rav and he said so.June 12, 2023 11:52 am at 11:52 am #2198943
He meant אין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה
see יורה דעה סימן פ”ט סעיף ה וסעיף וJune 12, 2023 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2198947
n0> You don’t understand retail at all!
yes, I am not in retail, B’H. you are right about competitiveness. But there are still pockets of monopolies – selling in poor neighborhoods where people do not drive to Costcos, government contracting … kosher stores in small towns used to be such, dented by Costcos and other stores now selling many kosher products and online shopping, but still they have their captured audience of older or uninformed customers who sometimes pay over the roof.June 12, 2023 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2198948
Interesting dichotomy: when we discuss the Pesach aspect of it, there are learnt references. When we discuss l’havero aspect – everyone is wandering in the dark.June 12, 2023 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #2198950
common, the real reason I am suggesting to go ask a Rav is Rambam in halochos deos that says when a person is unhealthy he needs to go to the doctor, when he has problems with deos, he needs to go to a chacham. That is what I I think I meant, not simply get a psak on a particular question.June 12, 2023 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #2198951
When “I want” is for Gashmius reasons, then it’s a goyishe attitude, but when the “I want” is to keep the Halacha better, that’s a Yiddish attitude.
It’s interesting when people try to bash chumras by suddenly remembering a mitzva to buy from Jews, and when they have a “Gashmiyus chumra” like wanting better quality or better prices then it’s suddenly fine and they themselves get most of their purchases from goyim online or in-store.
I personally try to buy from Yidden even when the quality and price are worse, but if they refuse to supply the Chumras that I want, that’s when I stop feeling obligated to patronize them. It’s the same for everyone, we all have the same attitude toward Jewish shops – You help me and I’ll help you. To me “helping me” means supplying the Kashrus standards that I want. I don’t care so much about the quality and price. Some people are willing to settle for minimum Kashrus standards while needing maximum quality and minimum price.June 12, 2023 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2198964
@AAQ, so do as I say not do as I do?June 12, 2023 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2198971
You mean 99
Though I’m still not sure the relevance. That wouldn’t allow you to buy the chometz intending to mix it and create bitulJune 12, 2023 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #2198988
“I personally try to buy from Yidden even when the quality and price are worse, but if they refuse to supply the Chumras that I want, that’s when I stop feeling obligated to patronize them”
I don’t get this
So you’re a meikel stam to make yourself feel good. Isn’t that worse than a meikel who is driven by yetzer harah for money?June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2198995
If the shop intends to mix it so that “machmirim” shouldn’t know what’s what and by doing that, they want the “machmirim” to consider it בטל, then it shouldn’t be בטל.
You could “kler” if it’s done intentionally or not, but there is a possibility that they are aware of the problems and are intentionally trying to create a heter (or intentionally trying to circumvent the Knas/boycot that the Chachamim made to deter them from avoiding proper biur chometz and obviously the Chachamim would not allow such easy loopholes מה הועילו חכמים בתקנתם)June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2199001
#1 I don’t think it’s being meikel, just like there is a mitzva to buy from a Yid, it’s a Mitzva to sell to a Yid and not to cheat a Yid etc. The Mitzva to buy from a Yid doesn’t mean that he can force you to buy what you don’t want. Just like you can’t force him to sell you something that he doesn’t want to or for a lower price than he is willing to do. If he is not supplying an important aspect that you require, you don’t need to buy from him. The way business is meant to work is that you give me what I want and I give you what you want.
#2 This isn’t to make myself feel good, this is important to me. Just like for someone else that taste and quality or price are very important to them. For someone who needs Wise brand onion rings because to him (or his kids) Leibers onion rings don’t taste as good or are too expensive, I can say that he is buying a Goyish company over a Jewish one just to make himself feel good. but that would be disrespecting his needs and feelings because to him it is not an option to buy the Leibers onion rings because the slight difference in taste or the few cents in price is very important to him. To others, the taste or cost is much less significant than the improved Kashrus.
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