Tagged: Chometz Pesach
June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2199042
In grocery the cost drives the price. These little groceries have dozens of costs that Costco does away with. Any grocery that reports a large net to gross ratio, will be instantly audited.June 12, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2199064
I (and my Rabbeim) disagree that this is improved kashrus. In which case the “chumra” is inappropriate.
As you put it so well “or intentionally trying to circumvent the Knas/boycot that the Chachamim made to deter them from avoiding proper biur chometz” What knas? he’s a frum guy he went to his Rav. You name him I’m sure he sells chometz. The store owner listens to Rav Forcheimer, Rav Miller Rav Heineman or whomever sold his chometz , why should he get a knas?June 12, 2023 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #2199105
If I (and my Rabbeim) disagree with getting the best tasting and cheapest snacks that still would not allow me to disrespect his concern that he does care about the taste and saving a few cents. The same thing works with Chumras.
When the Chachamim made the Knas they did not make an exception for if he “meant well” the halacha is that even if it was באונס the Knas would apply. My understanding of the reasoning for this is that if they would allow an exception then people would claim that it was באונס and their yetzer hara would make them give excuses due to the huge losses that he might incur. Now that the Chachamim made the Knas, it is not enough for him and his Rav to find a Kula, he will need to convince all his customers that it is Lechatchila.
That might be why the way the Chachamim made the Knas in the form of an Issur hanaah instead of saying that his Rabbi should give him a fine, is that this makes the public opinion matter instead of supervision by just one person who can potentially be too meikel out of pity for the individual or be bribed or misled.
Maybe the fact that 90% of the tzibur is happy to buy sold Chametz indicates that the sale is not so bad, but maybe the fact that (let’s say) 10% of the tzibur does not want to buy from the sold Chametz indicates that the sale is not so Lechatchila. The way the Knas works, in reality, is that the business that keeps Chometz over Pesach will lose customers as they will go to other Yidden or to Goyim. The better the heter is, the fewer customers will be lost.June 12, 2023 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2199110
“If I (and my Rabbeim) disagree with getting the best tasting and cheapest snacks that still would not allow me to disrespect… ”
What? Of course it would
“When the Chachamim made the Knas they did not make an exception for if he “meant well” the halacha is that even if it was באונס the Knas would apply. ”
“, he will need to convince all his customers that it is Lechatchila.”
Why? He followed the practice of generations he followed his rabbanim. Why does it have to have been lekatchila?
“The way the Knas works, in reality, is that the business that keeps Chometz over Pesach will lose customers as they will go to other Yidden or to Goyim. ”
Clearly not, otherwise there would be no need for this thread
“The better the heter is, the fewer customers will be lost.”
In thst case mechiras chometz is rock solid!
Of course we don t need to rely on this capitalistic lomdus. We rely on gedolei acharonim such as the chasam sofer who told us the sale is Rock solid and criticized those who imply otherwiseJune 13, 2023 11:25 am at 11:25 am #2199295
I appreciate everyone’s input here. Thank you.
Of course, there are those that held of the Mechira and many customers don’t mind buying Chometz that was sold. However, there are some Yidden that do mind buying Chometz that was sold.
The right thing for a store to do is to be transparent and let the “machmirim” know what was sold so that they should not end up buying what they don’t want to buy. If they would at least do that, they would be being respectful and fair to the “machmirim” and they would deserve the support of the “machmirim”. If they choose not to be considerate of the “machmirim”, they are being unfair to the “machmirim” as well as choosing to allow the “machmirim” to take their business elsewhere. Maybe they think that the business of the “machmirim” is not significant enough to make a difference to them. If that’s the case, the “machmirim” have no reason to continue their loyalty to the shop. If they don’t want the “machmirim”‘s business that’s their choice. The “machmirim” also have the option to choose where they want to shop. You only have a Mitzva to buy from a Yid if the Yid wants your business.
If I would know of a store that does cater to my needs, I would like to patronize that store. I think there could be such a store out there and that’s why I was asking to hear if anyone here knows of such a store.June 13, 2023 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #2199307yeshivaguy45Participant
Smiler613-Before you start thinking this is a chumra and there’s a group of “machmirim” that only buy things that were baked after pesach and don’t rely on mechira, realize that this isn’t even an inyan-the Mishnayos and Gemara both talk about selling things to a goy for Pesach. Many chashuva Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva buy food items that were sold to a goy before Pesach. There’s no need for storeowners to be fair to these “machmirim” who are inventing such a chumra which is not mentioned in any sefer.
I would advise you before taking on this “chumra” to ask your LOCR if there’s even such an inyan to be machmir in this regard.June 13, 2023 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2199310
you are most welcome
“You only have a Mitzva to buy from a Yid if the Yid wants your business.”
The yid wants your business. Don’t blame tyour misplaced “chumra” on him He looks to his Rav for guidance and follows all the instructions his Rav gives him.
If thats not good enough for you as you said “The “machmirim” also have the option to choose where they want to shop.” this is true from a legal standpoint although perhaps not halachik.
you say “”However, there are some Yidden that do mind buying Chometz that was sold.””
There are all sorts of yidden some kep Shabbos some don’t
Its not too late to do teshuva become a real machmir without the quotes. buy from yiddenJune 13, 2023 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2199311☕️coffee addictParticipant
Why can’t the “machmirim” just shop their chametz in a goyish store (ShopRite) and everything else in the Jewish storeJune 13, 2023 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2199432mentsch1Participant
Interestingly enough I saw yesterday that Shivti recently covered this in their chuburah pamphlets
I am referring to the aspect of buying from a jew and whether it is just a mitzvah or chiyuv
The question is relevant to all of us
In the pamphlet there are tshuvos on this.
I am not faulting the OP for his decision to buy in a goyish store. I do not force my wife to only buy jewish. She shops at Aldi’s etc. You can certainly ask me what my heter is.
I am faulting the OP for his reasoning. If he wants to argue it is more convenient, significantly cheaper etc. I cant argue with that
If he wants to argue it is a bigger mitzvah, well, that is falseJune 13, 2023 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2199507
You said it so much better than I can.June 13, 2023 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #2199513
Smile, thanks for clarifying your position. Let me propose a difference:
1) in case of price and quality, there are established halochos to what degree one should favor the Jewish store. And if the store owner is T’Ch or/and an Ehrliche Yid, I am sure people will push it further. Still, if I prfer to feed my kids fresh food, I’ll go where it is.
2) in your case of a chumra, you have a halachik balance between being machmir l’Hashem and being supportive of another Yid. As many say, as Hashem also wants you to support the Yid, the halachik decision is to favor the Yid v. a chumra that becomes simply inapplicable in this case. You literally have nothing to lose – the Yid is happy, and Hashem is happy. Why aren’t you!?
This is just a milder form of a chosid shoteh who would not touch a woman to save her from drowning. Evidently, Hashem wants him to touch her in this case, so he has nothing to be machmir about.June 13, 2023 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #2199514☕️coffee addictParticipant
But if your “chumrah” is preventing you from doing it…..June 14, 2023 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2199608
.. then you reevlute your “chumra” to see if it makes sense
A chumra has to make sense
If I have a “chumra” I dont eat from a fridge that was running on Shabbos. I am very machmir on Lo sivaru eish I want the fridge powered down. Therefore I only buy refrigerated items from Goyim
You would most likely say that chumra was inappropriate, doesn’t make mush sense and is borderline Tzedoki in nature.
I can call it a chumra from today until tomorrow that doesn’t make it correct.
Using this “chumra” to then justify not buying from yidden or to justify baal taschis in throwing out perfectly kosher fine food makes it even worseJune 14, 2023 11:33 am at 11:33 am #2199656
Should each person evaluate his Chumros to see if they make sense? Sure
This applies to the chumra of not eating temporarily sold chometz as well as the chumra of buying from yidden that don’t accommodate your needs as well as the chumra of “emunas chachamim” in the meikel over the machmir.
But the wildest chumra of them all is the “chumra” to bash other people’s chumras or to specifically not accommodate to them. This Chumra needs to be most carefully re-evaluated. I don’t think anyone is as sure of themselves as Bais Shamai were and Chazal tell us that Bais Shamai would accommodate Bais Hillel because as much as they stuck to the truth, they also stuck to peace.
For some reason, when it comes to other people’s even baseless Kulas most people go with “live and let live” and tend to mind their own business. On the other hand when someone has a not even so baseless chumra, suddenly the “live and let live” attitude tends to go out the window.June 14, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2199709
” This Chumra needs to be most carefully re-evaluated.”
I reevaluated, it is appropriate here
“For some reason, when it comes to other people’s even baseless Kulas … On the other hand when someone has a not even so baseless chumra…, ”
the question though is which is this thread an example of
Though I’m not sure what you mean by “live and let live”
I’m not stopping you frm doing whatever you want . I’m sharing my thoughts on the matter same as you.
I’m skeptical that the point of this thread was an honest to goodness quest to find such a store in Lakewood. (more than 2 months after Pesach nuch der tzi !) There are much more efficient ways to find that information , ask people in your shul, ask likeminded people who share this “chumra” ask your moreh hora’ah who presumably recommended you follow this “chumra” The point of this thread was to get people excited with an exciting topic . And I delivered I too find it excitingJune 14, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2199696mentsch1Participant
I love how you keep comparing yourself to bais shamai
I am more than willing to accept your interpretation of this
Just find a tshuva supporting your POV
Baring that it’s just am haratzus masquerading as tzidkusJune 14, 2023 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #2199746
No problem find it exciting, but it also was a real question and the answer seems to be that no one here knows of such a place.
“There are much more efficient ways to find that information”
Anyone in shul can say “Why are you asking me? Ask in a forum online”
2 months after Pesach is when you start thinking that it should be possible to shop without having to check dates. For the first few weeks, it’s just a temporary issue so no problem but after some time when the shelves are still stocked with old food that lasts a long time with some stores even selling them past date, it’s like Ad Musai? There are plenty of things in the store that were not just sold this year, they were sold last year too, and maybe even the year before that.
for a tshuva, Reb ubiquitin mentioned the Maaseh Rav, that doesn’t mean there is no other side but I think that counts as something for starters.June 15, 2023 1:48 am at 1:48 am #2199870
smiler, I am really interested in what your Rav thinks about your idea, whether he agrees or not, or says it is mutar. Please keep us posted.June 15, 2023 8:14 am at 8:14 am #2199921simcha613Participant
Smiler- I guess the way I look at it, is that it is Ratzon HaShem to do business with other Jews. Now, there are heterim when it comes to price and quality which, depending on the situation, it’s perfectly fine to rely on… but one cannot say they are fulfilling ratzon Hashem by not doing business with the Jew. They have their own cheshbonos on at what point to choose quality and price, which is perfectly in line with halacha, and it’s not our place to judge. Those who are machmir and willing to sacrifcie quality and price are almost certainly going lifnei mishuras hadin and fulfillinf ratzon HaShem.
Now, in your case, you aren’t sacrificing the Ratzon HaShem of doing business with Jews for gashmiyus, you are doing it for ruchniyus purposes. Which on the one hand sounds noble, but to me, it sounds a little misplace. Because you are sacrificing the Ratzon HaShem that is actually in the Torah, for a different potential Raton HaShem- not benefitting from a questionable mechira that almost all Rabbonim rely on. So, on the one hand, your chumra is a good one, in a vaccum… and it can seem like a better excuse to not buy from Jews that those who use gashmiyus… but how did you make that cheshbon that the ratzon Hashem of not relying on a sale is more important than the Ratzon Hashem of doing business with and supporting other Jews?June 15, 2023 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2199926June 15, 2023 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2199953yeshivaguy45Participant
This thread reminds me of a story with R’Chaim Kanievsky Zatzal that I heard from R’Eli Stefansky (Yevamos 71, about 10 minutes in). R’Chaim went to visit a certain Rebbe on Chol Hamoed Succos in his sukkah and saw a box of Matzos on the table. He asked him, what was going on, matzos on Sukkos.
He said, “In our chassidus, we are makpid like the hava aminas of the Gemara. The Gemara wanted to compare Sukkos to Pesach, (Gezeira Shava Tes Vav of Pesach to Tes Vav of Sukkos). So we’re makpid to have matzos.”
R’Chaim answered him, “The Gemara had a hava amina that maybe you have to do a bris mila on your ear. Since you didn’t do that, you’re an Arel according to this hava amina and an Arel is assur to eat Matza according to the hava amina in the Gemara on Yevamos daf 71!”June 15, 2023 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2200029
The way I look at it is that people know that the Mechira is not that good and it would definitely not hurt to be machmir. Maybe it’s possible to be meikel but their ego doesn’t let them be “meikel” so they need to find an excuse to call it a “chumra” so they dig up something called “buying from yidden” that wasn’t relevant to them when the price, quality, or convenience was slightly better somewhere else. Not only do they pat themselves on the back with their new invented chumra to davka buy questionably sold chometz they also refuse to accommodate those that are machmir and start to bash them zealously.
Not that every person who believes this idea has this reason, but somewhere down the road someone invented this lomdos for this reason and some people find it convenient to buy into this lomdos, some people are confused, and some people truly believe that the sale is fine and for some reason continue to use the excuse of buying from Yidden which they don’t need because they hold it’s ok even if it would be specifically from Goyim. (of course, many people who are meikel to buy the chometz do not use this excuse and do not bash the machmirim. They don’t mind considering themselves the meikel or simply one of the sides)
In reality, it has no connection because the chumra has nothing to do with buying. It’s only that you cannot eat the food. I buy some food from Yidden and then don’t eat it when I realize that the product has an issue and I do not return it. I also don’t eat gifts that I receive that have this issue. It only can indirectly cause you to need to buy from Goyim because the Yidden were not supplying what you eat. That’s like saying that I shouldn’t go on a diet because it may cause me to buy less nosh from Yidden.
The original post was about trying to buy from Yidden. I have an option to buy from Goyim but I would rather buy from a Yid. So I am looking for a store that supplies what I need. If I can find a store that at least makes it clear what was sold and what was not, I would want to support such a store.June 15, 2023 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #2200195
“The way I look at it is that people know that the Mechira is not that good and it would definitely not hurt to be machmir”
chas veshalom to say such a thing about frum yidden.
All frum yidden view the sale as perfectly good. The Chasam Sofer writes (OC 113) anyone who questions the sale should be yelled at.
Chas veshalom to say it was “questionably sold” You are besmirching Gedolei Achronim and the greatest poskim today ALL of whom orchestrate mechiras chometz,
sure there is a hanhaga not to sell chamutz gamur. But that is not the discussion at hand we are not discussing you selling your chometz.
You cannot find any teshuva backing up your mistaken shitah. True Maaseh RAv does say that the Gra did not buy chometz sold over PEsach this was addressed in my 2nd comment in this threadJune 16, 2023 1:49 am at 1:49 am #2200340
as we are speaking about chumros, what do you think about stopping on a freeway rest area and using a bathroom in a McDonalds? R Yaakov Kamenetsky has a chumra about it. What do you think?June 16, 2023 7:28 am at 7:28 am #2200385commonsaychelParticipant
@AAQ, I think you need to get a life.July 7, 2023 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2206411
This is a very late response to what I was thinking when I posted. It was from my memory then and it still is. I don’t know when I will learn the topic again. It deserves proper sources.
I understood the scenario as, the Jewish Distributor that refused to sell his chometz has sold to a variety of stores that we can’t clarify exactly. Assuming that we have a mixture and are attempting to use rov, it would not permit the distributor to do so, because he could have sold at the point of issur. Once there is a matir at any point, we don’t use rov where the matir is a possibility. When one willfully ignores the matir, then we do not allow them to use the rov at all.
There can be a strong argument that we do not care about the mixture to begin with because the consumer isn’t doing an issur or knowing that the purchase is assur. But if we assume that the retailor’s stock is all mixed to the point that there is nothing stopping us from going after rov, than the phrohibition from the distributor should never be removed by making a mixture out of it. Because that phrohibition was avoidalble with a clear matir.
PS I’m assuming that the sale of an assimilated Jew’s chometz is valid.July 7, 2023 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2206420
The people who try to be machmir on this generally have no idea what they are talking about.
The majority of the chometz that is in your typical local jewish grocery store, was purchased from a jewish distributor. Hence, the entire stock is a problem of chometz shavar alav hapesach until at least the summer. All dry goods from heimeshe brands could have been in the distributor’s warehouse until the winter. There is some chometz that is not even fully rotated until several years. The kosher food economy is self reliant. The further one goes from the kosher retailer, the less of an overview there is on all matters of the supply train. There isn’tmuch certainty who all owned all the chometz that is currently in Wal-Mart.
There is no reason for the local kosher grocery to mark what he brought in after pesach, because that was also owned by a Yid befor Pesach and was sold to a Goy. The grocer has no way of knowing where and when to draw the line on what was sold over Pesach. The same goes for the distributor. It would be very costly to keep track of it. And you Mr. Machmir has not offered to pay for it. I have news for you. Wal-Mart is not tracking this either. Nobody really is. There is a basic awareness of the national distiributing network and one major distributor and several smaller ones are known to be problematic. Nobody is watching if one of the smaller jewish distributors sellsout to a nonjew. This applies equally to chometz that was or wasn’t sold. When we shop by a Jewish Grocery there the knoweldge that they are largely working within the network and all their chometz was properly sold. There is no such assumption with buying from nonjews. I’m not saying it’s a problem, but it is definitely not a chumrah to use an unkown venue in place of the entire kosher food network.
I assume that all post pesach bread is from flour that may have been sold. Do you buy your bread from Wal-Mart for a month? Do you avoid bread crumbs in all jewish resturants all year? Hard alchohol? Beer that is served by a local simcha?
This is not chumros. It is not even hpocrisy. It’s ignorance. Such people have no idea how kosher food works and are a hindarance to enabling kosher food.July 7, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2206434
I’m not sure what you are saying
by definition a davar sheyesh lo matirin will become muttar . Thats literally the defitnion. (Its a machlokes if the heter has to happen automatically, or if a minor act like kashering will also qualify as it will become mutar)
If it won’t become muttar then it is not a Davar sheyesh lo matirin, by definition.
(Even if it will spoil before becoming muttar it isnst a davar sheyesh lo matirin accoridng to Mechaber )
Chometz shevar al hapesach will never become muttar. There is nothing yo ucan do to make it muttar, you cant sell it now cant kasher it is assur forever. IT doesnt matter that could have prevented the issur that is a not a “matirin” . Right now after Pesach is there a way to fix it? NO
Thus it is NOT a davar sheysh lo matirin, and WILL be batul in the proper circumstances.
Of course all other rules of bitul apply, cant be davar shebiminyan, berye, chaticha rui lechichabed, cant intentionally create bittul (ain mevatlin issur lechatchila). Kol kavua etc
The fact that something WAS avoidable doesn’t change anything. Issur neveila WAS avoidable by shechting. nontheless if I intentionally create neveila and it ACCIDENTLY gets mixed up with kosher meat it is batul (again barring the exceptions to bitul mentioned above).
there are a few lines of yours I dont get either. Though I agree the Distributror who didnt sell chometz cant mix up his product, but that isnt because davar sheyesh lo matirin (again there is no matir for chometz shevara PEsach) ratehr becauase ein mevatlin issur lechatchila
Also the thread is not about a distributor who refused to sell, nor an assimialted Jew who sold. Rather a Tayereh Yirei Shomayim who went to the Gadol Hador and sold through himJuly 9, 2023 1:03 am at 1:03 am #2206595
When I posted about rov, I assumed it was about a distributor that didn’t sell. I think I got that wrong. But If it was sold, what could use bittul? It’s all heter.
Now that it’s officially of topic, we can just discuss rov.
“The fact that something WAS avoidable doesn’t change anything. Issur neveila WAS avoidable by shechting. nontheless if I intentionally create neveila and it ACCIDENTLY gets mixed up with kosher meat it is batul (again barring the exceptions to bitul mentioned above).”
To avoid initial confusion let me put it in one sentence. We could always go back and forth. I agree with you in application of yesh lo matirin. I was thinking in concept because the post I was responding to, was only in concept.
I understand that it needs to be accidental because rov is only a matir of a mixture. And by definition can’t replace a different matir.
That’s two sentences. Let me try again.
The concept yesh lo matirin means that rov can be matir when the only problem is the issur within the mixture.July 9, 2023 1:05 am at 1:05 am #2206603
common, the chumra is that you are supposed to buy something there rather than using facilities for free.July 9, 2023 10:50 am at 10:50 am #2206660
“But If it was sold, what could use bittul? It’s all heter.”
THe OP doesnt believe the sale is valid, he views sold chometz as issur
2 more points
1) “I understand that it needs to be accidental because rov is only a matir of a mixture.”
no it needs to be accidental, becasue ein mevatlin issur lechatchila. You can’t create a situation of bitul. This has nothing to do with davar sheyesh lo matirin
2) “The concept yesh lo matirin means that rov can be matir when the only problem is the issur within the mixture.”
Thats the Ran’s understanding of Davar sheyeh lo matirin.
The more common understanding is that of Rashi, namely why eat it beissur and rely on bitul if you can just wait (or do a minor act) and eat it beheter.
In this case I don’t think the OP’s case is davar sheysh lo matirin. according to either approach a. Chometz sheavar PEsach is issur (again he views sold chometz as issur) so it should be batul in non-chometz shevar al Hapeshac which is heter.
b. Can’t say wait until its heter becasue chometz shear al Hapesach will never ever become heter.July 9, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2206794
Rov doesn’t help for beliefs. Heter and heter can’t be a mixture.
Just a reminder that I’m not lloking anything up. It is all of the top of my head. I’m beimg too lazy to look up the sources I dimly recall.
On your points,
1) I understand them the same. Maybe I’m wrong. Should I elaborate?
2) If you give me exact sources I’ll get to it. Still, this only from the perspective of the consumer.July 10, 2023 11:02 am at 11:02 am #2207057
1) “I understand them the same. Maybe I’m wrong. ”
If you understand Ein mevatlin issur lechatchila and davar sheysh lo matirin as the same (which I suspect you are mixing up) then you are wrong. They are completely different ideas.
2) sources for what?
If you want sources for Davar sheysh lo matirin its its own siman in Shulchn Aruch YD 102
If you want sources for Ein mevatlin issur lechatchila its a few seifim in YD 99: 5-6
Again they are completely different ideasJuly 10, 2023 11:07 am at 11:07 am #2207068
I reread the thread
In your first comment you wrote
“We don’t ever use bitul after we intentionally created an issur. דבר שיש לו מתירים”
You mixed up two things
As smiler pointed out (I missed his comment) “He meant אין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה”
(That said even if you had it right it still wouldnt ” suffice to eradicate every possible retort.” we can quibble on whther it is a case of ein mevatlin (unlike davar sheyesh lo matirin which it certainly isnt) though again it ptrobably wouldnt be batul for toehr reason, Kal kavua and davar shebeminyan)July 26, 2023 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2211356
I would have to go through and then post everything from the basics. Until then I cede you the argument. Though I still think we are coming from different perspectives more than we disagree.
And, the I-can-find-better-kashrus-then-the-yidden-who-manage-the-food-business types are all frauds.
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