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@ CS
Thank you for posting letter 27 of Iggeres Hakodesh.
I still don’t see how you take the leap from what is written in the Iggeres Hakodesh to relating to a nistalek in the way you are describing.
Also, do you have a response to YB re: the Ramban?
I will [for CS’s benefit] , attempt to fill in the answers to those simple questions in her place IF SHE WOULD BE HONEST AND HUMBLE ENOUGH to do so.
“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”
No , I cannot because he nowhere addresses this.
I happen to have MY OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. I am not able to invoke the Tanya’s authority for them without clear proof from his words.“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”
No , because there is no such source to be found . Again – I and my fellow travelers happen to have OUR OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. We are not able to invoke any klal yisrael wide authority for this besides that this happens to be our own subjective opinion.
“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”
The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. But as this was not the question asked , the answer to the Q is , no. This concept is not widely accepted in klal yisrael outside of hasidi circles.
“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”
I understand what you mean , because I took the time to reflect on this and used my honed intellect to process this Q. To be truthful, I never looked in this direction because I was programmed to repeat everything I am told by certain people without any of my own critical thinking.
“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”
I don’t really know [refer to previous answer] .But my well-honed intellect tells me somehow that if there are other, better explanations to those mamarei hazal , then the authority lent to Tanya’s explanation is reduced to the Tanya himself and not to the Amora’im who said those ma’amarim.
“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”Because my rebbi taught me in all sorts of ways ,and I internalized this very well, [I actually can feel it in my bones] that my approach and that my rebbi are way more great, and way more emet , in all aspects, than any other approaches , and any other rebeim in the whole world.
He even conditioned me [and my fellow travelers] to continue to believe that ,even in the face of overwhelming evidence and immense rationality clearly pointing to the opposite.
He , therefore , even taught us to “phaiph” on said evidence and rationality.
So, as a result, said evidence and rationality are totally worthless, when it comes to convincing me of anything different to what I have been brainwashed to believe.So obviously – it the other side who should ‘Go and Learn’ ….
.
Not me …..
.@chabad-shlucha You understand that the criticism of Chabad from the other 95% of frum Jews (which is probably noticeable even to you in things like how little space frum publications give to major Chabad events and personalities, if they are mentioned at all). It’s not about the last Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L, like you are saying. Sure there was criticism against him when he was alive, but most gedolim respected him as a leader and gadol b’Torah. However, he’s been dead for 30 years. The problems that the frum world has with Chabad (and believe me, it’s the entire relevant frum world) aren’t about “mivtzoim” (whatever those are) they are about the way in which Chabad is accepting of very problematic practices, like asking bakoshois from dead people, claiming a dead person will come back to life and be Moshiach, and saying that a certain man is infallible so therefore everything he ever wrote or said is no different from Toras Moshe M’Sinai (C”V), and many many many other practices and beliefs that have nothing to do with shluchim and Mitzva Tanks.
cs- im sure this question has been asked many times befor but as i am new to the coffee room i havent heard an answer. how does chabad explain the famous quote of the undisputed gadol hador rav shach about chabad?
Dear reader
Please contrast CS’s actual responses [without honesty] against those with honesty. Kirchok mizrah mima’arav.“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”
A tzaddik is totally in line with Hashem’s Ratzon, so his “mistakes” don’t come from yetzer hara but are also directed by Hashem (remember Aharons argument to the malach hamoves?) There is a rare scenario of a tzaddik not advancing in his avodas Hashem, and slipping to do an aveira (like Yochanan Kohen Gadol), but it would be obvious as the Posuk states ba zadon vayavo kalon.
For a regular YB to think HE knows, or anyone that didn’t top The Rebbe in yiras shomayim, knows, that The Rebbe made a mistake, because He knows better, is utter foolishness, but just arrogance and bizui TC. I hope that clarifies.
“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”
Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc
“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”
The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. How many tzaddikim of Tanya there are today is a different question which I cannot answer. I keep my nose out for them.
“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”
Not sure what you mean. And even if it is, it answers.
“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”
No one is making you become Chabad. As for me, it’s my honour and privilege.
“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”See the answer to 1, and you’ll know why.
Revisit to CS’s answer-
“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
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The basic difference according to Tanya between Tsadiq and Beinoni is that although both refrain from ALL AVEROT, the beinoni still has the pull to do bad inside himself , but he strengthens himself and does not transgress at all , whereas the Tsadiq does not have this pull at all anymore , like David Hameleh who killed his yetser with fasting.So if CS would still have a shred of honesty left, she should here publicly agree that her answer is totally off.
Lets say he did not do any avera – how does this have any relevance to his ‘Tsadiq status’ according to Tanya ???
.Honest Question for CS: Why are Chabad women so into learning their Rebbe’s seforim but don’t seem to know the halachos in Tznius?
It’s well known that Chabad women struggle with Tznius, when I asked a Chabad woman I know why this is so (she herself is very makpid in tznius), she said that the Rebbe was very into Tznius- so why don’t the women in Chabad listen to the Rebbe when it comes to Tznius?CS, do you know why many Chabad simchas are done in Crown Heights?
The silence from CS and the other habad apologists/propagandists is getting louder …..
Nu ?
Are they scared ?Hello ….
Can we invoke the klal of shtikah ke’hoda’a ?Lets wait and see how long they can hold back .
For the record – there are NUMEROUS unanswered questions here.
Is this going to be the ultimate proof that habad lost ??
Maybe a taanit dibbur
You guys don’t realize
You will never win against Lubavitch until moshiach comes and he won’t be the rebbe (and will tell them it בפה מלא)
Until then they know that arguments are pointless
ta’anit dibur applies to someone who has something to say and keeps back ,,,,
Seems like there is nothing left to say ?Hold on, I know how to get the Chabadniks back in here.
Attention Chabadniks! I know a Jewish man who didn’t put on tefillin yet today!@DaMoshe
What’s that?? Where?? I’ll take care of it!@DaMoshe
the only response you can get from CS and her fellow travelers is a choice between jokes , sidesteps, issues being ignored and obvious non answers.
There is nothing else on the menu.Read through the last pages on this thread and the other [discontinued] threads , on the same topic.
Always the same.Wonderful people . Special people.
Lousy theology. Non existent logic.
.maybe CS finally refilled her prescription
@CS
It seems that much of your beliefs were not much more than one big bubble.
One prick ….It seems like that the habad propaganda machine has run out of steam . We should give them some time to recuperate.
They were working overtime, seems like.
It must have been too much.So it might be our turn to offer to provide answers to their questions now. Such as Why do you ….
You the neo habad sceptics , for lack of a better name…
Or all non habad yehudim ….Why are you sceptic only about our wonderful movement which is the only contemporary embodiment of all of Judaism’s generations from Abraham Avinu to today ?
Is there anything beyond simple sin’at hinam at play here ?
.
We should attempt , unlike CS, to provide honest and clear answers here .To the point answers and not shirking anything.
Whoever wants to join – is welcome.
.Q : Is it true that habad looks at themselves as the pasuk describes – Hen Am Levadad Yishkon …..
Do they view themselves as isolated from the rest of klal yisrael , more so than the other shvatim / hugim in klal yisrael ?
And if yes , why is this so ?
.The main problem about habad nowadays stems from the following erroneous assumption the habad hasidim make :
Welcome to the following [no difference whether conscious or subconscious] habadi thought process
“Since I genuinely feel uplifted when I hear / learn / follow the late habad leaders torah / hitva’adut / guidance , I am convinced that he is the most exalted Jewish leader since the unfolding of Jewish History , greater than Abraham and Moses.
No one in our generation comes even close and even in all preceding generations no one came close. Including in the generation of Moses.”
This assumption is something which sets habad totally apart from all other sections of klal yisrael.
Never in thousands of years of Jewish History was this considered official gospel [!] in any Jewish group, kehilla , yeshiva or hasidut.This is one of the defining differences between habad and all the rest of of Orthodox Jews.
One point of chomer lemahshavah – for all the non habad people reading thses lines
And incidentally for habadi’s still under the illusion that all non habadi’s are nothing much more than primitive savages subsisting on the achorayim of the hashpa’ot from their [false] mashiach, waiting to be shown the glory and benefits of civilization.
I noticed that if I swap every time Yankel mentions “Habad” with “the Joos,” his posts end up reading identical to classic Groyper ramblings on Twitter. Try it.
I noticed that an intelligent Menachem who normally – when he has answers available – endeavors to respond to valid questions and issues raised, while now he resorts to implications of antisemitism [?].
Is that a copout ?
Think about it.Repeated [unanswered] Question –
Habadi’s frequently [also CS on this thread] say that their late Rebbi was a Tsadiq of Tanya.What is their source for that ?
Is it because their Previous Rebbi took him for a son in law ?
.CS actually tried answering that, but it was a nonsensical answer.
She said because he was not known to ever do an aveirah.
It’s nonsensical because even if that were true,
A) he may have done aveiros privately
B) As someone pointed out, that’s not the only criterionIs it because their Previous Rebbi took him for a son in law ?
No.
What is their source for that ?
Forget about Tanya for a moment. When anyone says that a certain Jew is “a great tzaddik,” what do they mean?
And what is their source that the person qualifies?
The whole idea of “the tzaddik” as viewed by early chassidim is absurd.
DaMoshe thinks that The whole idea of “the tzaddik” as viewed by early chassidim is absurd.
Well, I think opposing chassidus is absurd. So what?
A Beinoni of the Tanya ALSO did no avera.
So – the Q comes back : How do they pretend to know that their rebbi was a tsadiq of tanya ?Even leshitatam that he did not do an avera , [impossible to verify btw]
maybe he is a beinoni ?@menachem
People say ?
We are referring to torah based criteria here – not folksy sayings …..Menachem Shmei, when other Yidden say “tzaddik” they mean what the Gemora and Medroshim imply — someone who does the right things, does not do aveiros be’meizid (and if, chas ve’sholom, he did derech mikre, he does full teshuvah right away). It is very different from the Tanya’s chiddush of how to define one.
@Menachem
Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?@yankel Berel your posts the last two weeks looked really pathetic.
Everyone was quiet but you couldn’t seem to let go of posting another post on this thread, and another, it almost seemed like you would get withdrawal symptoms if you stopped talking about Chabad and needed to keep on going… on going…on going.741- whyd you have to do him like that
@741
What’s really pathetic , [and btw the reason of my ongoing posts] is that there are numerable questions and issues which are left totally unaddressed by the habad apologizers.If there would be serious [attempts or] answers to all the issues raised, with a serious ,open, honest and fact based discussion, then there would be no need for any ongoing posts.
They claim to have all the answers, but run away whenever there is a real challenge.Is that a possible reason why they mainly deal with non frum ? The non frum are not going to challenge them so quickly with questions about mesorah and chazal ?
Again, that does not mean that they are bad people – has veshalom !
They are special and idealistic people from whom all of klal yisrael can and should learn .But their theology is beyond bad.
They should be man enough to stand their ground , instead of running away.
.741,
What yankel was doing was goading a lubavitcher to post so the thread can get some life into it (which was what happened) if he didn’t constantly post it would have fallen off and no one would’ve commented (until a few months later or the 4th coming of CS)
there are numerable questions and issues which are left totally unaddressed by the habad apologizers.</em
Maybe try changing the ratio to 90% questions and 10% raving attacks instead of the other way around.
If there would be serious [attempts or] answers to all the issues raised, with a serious ,open, honest and fact based discussion, then there would be no need for any ongoing posts.
They claim to have all the answers, but run away whenever there is a real challenge.I have answered many, many questions on this forum. You may disagree with my answers, but you can’t accuse me of running away from serious discussion.
However, if I don’t answer, it could be because: 1) I’m not in the mood to look things up and write detailed answers to complex philosophical questions. I’m doing something more important at the time.
Or 2) I don’t know the answer (I never claimed to have all the answers. That would be absurd.)
Or 3) You didn’t raise serious questions or discussion points, but instead resorted to rhetoric about how Lubavitch has all these terrible problems, which I’m not inclined to respond to.
Either way, your claim that my not responding to your angry posts on a forum is some sort of “Lubavitch addmision of guilt” is ridiculous.
Coffee, you’re right. I try to hold back but sometimes I just can’t resist taking the bait 🙂
Whoops, the formatting got mixed up in a previous post. Just fixing that:
there are numerable questions and issues which are left totally unaddressed by the habad apologizers.
Maybe try changing the ratio to 90% questions and 10% raving attacks instead of the other way around.
If there would be serious [attempts or] answers to all the issues raised, with a serious ,open, honest and fact based discussion, then there would be no need for any ongoing posts.
They claim to have all the answers, but run away whenever there is a real challenge.I have answered many, many questions on this forum. You may disagree with my answers, but you can’t accuse me of running away from serious discussion.
However, if I don’t answer, it could be because: 1) I’m not in the mood to look things up and write detailed answers to complex philosophical questions. I’m doing something more important at the time.
Or 2) I don’t know the answer (I never claimed to have all the answers. That would be absurd.)
Or 3) You didn’t raise serious questions or discussion points, but instead resorted to rhetoric about how Lubavitch has all these terrible problems, which I’m not inclined to respond to.
Either way, your claim that my not responding to your angry posts on a forum is some sort of “Lubavitch addmision of guilt” is ridiculous.
Menachem, it wasn’t directed at you but at the OP, who invited everyone in the first post in this thread to come ask their burning questions about Chabad.
“Or 2) I don’t know the answer (I never claimed to have all the answers. That would be absurd.)“
A way to have humility is by saying “I don’t know, I’ll ask and get back to you”
@menachem
All the questions are nothing more than what they are – questions .
It is only when they are left unanswered that they might, in your mind, turn into so called ‘attacks’ .Answer them and they will be nothing more than an answered question .
Am ready to go through them with you one by one . You will tell me which one is an attack and not a question and why.
Am looking forward .Doubt to see anything close to a 90 % ratio of ‘raving attacks’.
Even in your mind.Menachem, it wasn’t directed at you but at the OP
From Yankel’s wording it seemed directed at Lubavitchers in general and the posters here in particular, but maybe.
A way to have humility is by saying “I don’t know, I’ll ask and get back to you”
True, that’s an option. Especially in a very civil, respectful conversation.
@menachem
Maybe you are classifying my offer to go through each one , one by one. Maybe this is also classified as a ‘raving attack’ ?
Am putting you at ease – this is not an attack .
It’s nothing more than an offer.I don’t know why I allowed myself to get back into these discussions. I was always taught that you’re only supposed to give mussar to someone who is open to receiving it.
Most of us here know that Chabad is not ok, and that a lot of the modern Chabad beliefs can be considered apikorsis. There’s no need to convince these people. For the Chabadniks, they aren’t open to hearing it, so there’s no point in arguing with them. Sadly, they are lost.
I’m done with arguing with Chabadniks.“True, that’s an option. Especially in a very civil, respectful conversation.“
Personally I think this thread has been much more respectful sans אותו האיש 🤫)
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