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yankel > The navi [!] Shmuel was mistaken about Yishay’s sons

indeed, Shmuel was mistaken about his own sons … this episode actually bothers me. Anyone knows of a good explanation. Shmuel’s first nevuah is about telling Eli that Eli’s two sons are not proper and more bad news to tell Eli … That is how Shmuel becomes a leader – instead of them. Then, he raises two sons himself – and both are also not proper. Then, when frustrated Jews come and request a king (true, not wording their request properly) – Shmuel is all offended. But how is that Shmuel is not addressing his own failure – that is repeating Eli’s failure, so he was warned …

Tanya says that to decide whether someone is a tsadiq it depends on his temptations .
Menachem claims that there are ‘other’ ways to see whether he is a tsadiq .
Why does Tanya not mention those ‘other ways ?

I explained this to the best of my ability in the original post.

If I didn’t do a good job presenting the first twelve prokim of Tanya in two paragraphs, then go learn it *properly* in the original.

This entire premise is wrong. Chassidim trust the Rebbe simply because that’s how a devoted talmid relates to רבו המובהק.

Chassidim follow their rebbe with אמונת חכמים, they feel that כל המהרהר אחרי רבו כמהרהר אחרי השכינה, and they apply to their rebbe לא תסור ימין ושמאל.

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1] How could the Baal HaTurim argue with his rabo muvhak, his own father , the leader of the entire generation , the ROSH ?
Numerous times ?

2] They ‘feel” that kol hame’harher ….. . Question was not about feelings. Feelings is not knowledge. How do they know – was the question.

3] Kol hameharher achar rabo ,,,, does not mean that every talmid is obligated to believe that his rabo muvhak is INFALLIBLE .
However that’s what Menachem is saying, in other words.

4] rabo muvhak is someone who is rov toratoh mimenu. I know many habad hasidim who the majority of their torah knowledge does not come from their rebbi.

%] Lo tasur is said about the bet din hagadol which was s

5] Using Menachems logic then , all talmidim of many litvish [and satmar to a certain degree] should blindly accept that the rebbi from habad was an apikores, a mashiach sheker , a tsioni and a megis libo behora’a ? Otherwise, they are included in kol hamehaher ?

@menachem

Isn’t all of klal yisrael talmidim of Shmuel hanavi and does the klal of kol hameharher achar rabo not apply to all of us, versus Shmuel Hanavi ?

So how could Shmu’el himself be MISTAKEN about yishays children ?

Was Shmuel INFALLIBLE ?

How should we . [I count myself as a hasid of shmuel hanavi – hope all other readers do too.]

How do we ,all of us , “hasidei shmuel hanavi” ,understand our rebbi’s mistake in knowing yishays sons ?

Dont we “feel” the kol hameharher feeling ?

Is there something wrong with our feelings here ?

Would suggest that davka those people who pride themselves in their ‘moach shalit al halev’ approach , should subjugate their feelings to the emet ? Or not ?

Yankel, maybe start a thread asking why so many litvishers obey “daas torah” unquestionably, and also attack others who dare to question the reasoning of any decision of “daas torah.”

(See other threads here for examples)

According to you Yankel, what’s the difference between a Lo Avado Beinoni and a Tzaddik?

If you don’t mind me sticking my nose in, the tzadik was born with a yetzer hora but killed it thorough his avodas Hashem.

If you don’t mind me sticking my nose in, the tzadik was born with a yetzer hora but killed it thorough his avodas Hashem.

DaasYochid, this is true.

But how is it killed through avodas Hashem? Because he brought himself to such a great level of devotion, love and connection with Hashem (which is only possible for someone who was born with a neshama that’s able to reach such levels of refinement) – that he lost all desire to go against Hashem by sinning (“yetzer harah”).

That’s why even according to Tanya, the main way of recognizing a tzaddik is a person who stands out in his holiness and devotion to Hashem. The temptation question is only an outcome of this general holy state, and probably not very recognizable to other people, as Yankel pointed out.

@menachem

1] “Standing out in does not necessarily guarantee that impostors or fakers are weeded out.
We do not have to go far back in history for an example.

Shabtai Tzvi was definitely “standing out in holiness and devotion to hashem”.
Otherwise he would not have been able to convince a whole array of first class rabbanim plus the majority of klal yisrael of his bonafides.

And yet notwithstanding all of the above, turned out to be a fraud.

2] Which , in turn, brings another unanswered question [yet] . Let’s say I would be a naive hasid/talmid/follower of Shabtai Tzvi, impressed by his devotion and holiness [plus any other title I could dream up] .

I would be convinced like Menachem stated before , of “kol hameharher achar rabo ke’ilu meharher achar hashechina”

I would be convinced or even better , I would FEEL , [like Menachem stated before], a blind trust in my rebbi who goes by the name of melech hamashiach shabtai tzvi.

Now, suddenly this rebbi of mine in whom I trust blindly, suddenly becomes a Muslim , but he explains everything al pi kabala .

At what point do I say, my previous trust was misplaced ?

Or do I still persist in my blind trust ?
After all doesnt it say Kol hameharher … ?
.

.

Yankel,

So you agree with me that there is such a thing as accepting a “daas torah” and obeying them unquestionably even when you don’t understand.

But your problem with Chabad is that you feel they’ve taken this too far.

Okay, well I disagree. I think the Rebbe is a great daas torah to be bottul to, so I am. That’s our disagreement.

Menachem craft fully sidestepped each and everyone of the Questions asked.
WHY ?

Either you’re bad at asking questions or I’m bad at answering them.

Menachem craft fully sidestepped each and everyone of the Questions asked.
WHY ?
[yb to menachem]

Either you’re bad at asking questions or I’m bad at answering them.
[menachem to yb]
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Nu , is menachem sidestepping or not ?