November 7, 2022 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2136054
How come historically, Shas joined in coalition with left wing governments such as Rabin and Barak in 1992 and 1999?November 7, 2022 11:10 am at 11:10 am #2136142
Moreinu HaGaon HaRav Shach ztvk”l was the founding initiative who started the Shas Party. HaRav Shach was pro-peace and pro land-for-peace. With Rav Shach as the founding Mora D’asra of the Shas Party, it very much makes sense that the party was in favor of joining left-wing pro-peace governments.November 7, 2022 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2136155akupermaParticipant
1. Like most Chareidim, historically, Shas was pro-peace. The reason Chareidim tend to be pro-peace is that the continued existence of a constant state of war tends to undermine Torah life whether by glorifying soldiers (rather than the traditional Jewish glorifying of Torah scholars), conscription of young adults, and severe economic discrimination against those who haven’t served in the army.
2. Also note that the left wing parties and Chareidim usually agreed on social programs that benefit the poor, whereas the more nationalist parties tend to be less than thrilled about creating and expanding entitlements.
3. If the left wing parties were no so committed to the anti-religious commandments of their Marxist pseudo-religion, the Chareidim would probably be considered inherently left wing , however the Israeli left regardless of what it feels about issues such as national security and economics, sees its highest priority as being to opposed Torah and the Chareidim (to make Israel into an “Am Hofshi” – free from Torah).November 7, 2022 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2136162
Right after Oslo and giving away most of Hebron, the violence got worse.November 7, 2022 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2136163
Rav Shach said to vote Netanyahu vs PeresNovember 7, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2136179DaMosheParticipant
It’s unfortunate that Deri runs it. He has twice been convicted of crimes, yet still clings to his position (despite not being a member of the Knesset).
R’ Shach zt”l broke away from Shas and had some extremely harsh things to say about them.November 7, 2022 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2136192ubiquitinParticipant
In 1992, UTJ did NOT join the government as per Rav Shach’s instruction.
Shas joining was not because of Rav Shach, in fact the opposite is trueNovember 7, 2022 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2136193commonsaychelParticipant
“I see a lot of bashing in YWN CR of other communities and Jewish institutions without fully understanding the full picture of the demographics within said communities and institutions. What works for Lakewood or Brooklyn isn’t necessarily helpful or realistic for other communities. What are ways we can bridge the gap and have mutual respect as frum Jews?”
does this quote sound familiar?November 7, 2022 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2136196
Deri has done a tremendous amount of good; don’t blindly follow headlines in haaretz. Frum politicians are people, and might make mistakes, but what he’s accused of is not that big of a deal anyway and isn’t, as far as i know, even a violation of halacha.
would you prefer an anti frum person like lieberman, who has not been accused of “crime”?November 7, 2022 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2136201
#1 & ubiq: In any specific election Rav Shach may have had reasons not to agree to join the Labor/left coalition. But he wasn’t against joining the left in coalition as a general rule.November 7, 2022 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2136208ubiquitinParticipant
thats for sure true.
But shas joined in 92 not BECAUSE of R’ Shach. He was opposed to Shas joining, the fact that they joined anyway created a bit of a rift between the two as damoshe alludes toNovember 7, 2022 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2136213DaMosheParticipant
Aveirah, not a violation of halacha? The Torah says straight “do not accept bribes”. Deri accepted a lot of money in bribes when he was interior minister.
Later he was convicted of tax fraud. From a halachic perspective, that’s theft and lying.November 7, 2022 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2136236
Damoshe – bribery is assur when you’re a judge. There’s no prohibition of taking bribes for political favors.
Taxes aren’t obligatory in Israel, as the state is illegitimate, according to rav chaim kanievsky.November 7, 2022 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2136243
Shas is (lamentably) a Lithuanian Haredi party which is Sephardic in name only. Nothing that Shas represents religiously, culturally etc is representative of how Sephardim were historically.November 7, 2022 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #2136255
Yabia, that’s really not true. Their leadership is and always was sefardi. Rac ovadia was the singular most accepted authority on all things sefardi, and he was the head for decades. Rav shalom cohen was a brilliant sefardi gadol too.
Shas built up sefardi yiddishkeit on a level not comparable to anyone else. Yeshivos, girls schools, infrastructure, everything; there’s almost no sefardi entity not directly or indirectly built and supported by shas members.
If by “Lithuanian charedi” you mean that they believe in the primacy of torah, and aren’t very zionistic, then you’re just describing what you personally feel sefardim should be.November 7, 2022 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #2136269☕️coffee addictParticipant
👍👍👍👍November 7, 2022 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #2136300abooseinakParticipant
In the words of rav Ovadia Yosef ,the leader of the party, and greatest sage of the generation “ זה נבלה וזה טרפה ״”
People think that Torah Jews are automatically aligned with the right when in fact, the Torah is neither aligned with the right or the left and therefore the position of chareidi Jews would be the party or coalition that is most as possible aligned with their values, and this can be the left or the right( same goes in USA) . Rob Ovadia has written halachic responsa on this and every word and action, the great sage did was halachically calculated.November 7, 2022 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #2136322
Shas did a lot of great things. But that does nto stop it from being effectively a Lithuanian party. It has nothing to do with primacy of Torah. It has to do with an outlook that is so unnaturally Sephardic. Chareidi Ashkenazim relate to it because it so mirrors their way of life. But how would Avira understand that? She can’t!November 8, 2022 3:01 am at 3:01 am #2136354
What exactly is not naturally sefardi about anything associated with shas? Sefardim don’t seem to look at it that way, as almost all of them support it. As far as i know, the only prominent sefardi rov who didn’t support shas is rav yaakov hillel.
They build yeshivos which teach sefardi mesorah; i have no idea what you can possibly mean by saying that they’re not sefardi.
Maybe because you think that “natural sefardi” equals an almost illiterate farmer who kisses the hand of the mekubal? Pity if you think that’s all a sefardi person is capable of.November 8, 2022 3:03 am at 3:03 am #2136357
UJM, you are totally misinformed about what Rav Shach held.
Yabia, Shas was lead by Chacham Ovadia. He did not know about the Sefardi mesora? Or according to you, the Sefardi mesorah means kullos through the roof and anything goes, chas ve’sholom?November 8, 2022 7:44 am at 7:44 am #2136403
Who said Sephardic was being an illiterate farmer? What I mean is that Shas is a copy and paste of Lithuanian Chareidi Hashkafa. It’s not that Sephardim are not into Torah etc. Of course they are. But it’s HOW they approach Yiddishkeit. Shas does not represent this at all. Shas tries to emulate the Lithuanian derech. It’s not natural at all. It’s quite artificial and alien. And most Sephardim in Israel DO NOT vote Shas. That’s just a blatant lie.
It’s so obvious that we Ashkenazim are just too closed minded to appreciate the authentic Sephardic derech.November 8, 2022 9:11 am at 9:11 am #2136412
MDD: Rav Shach supported land for peach with the Arabs. Rav Shach at times supported joining a coalition with the Labor/left. So what are you objecting to?November 8, 2022 11:21 am at 11:21 am #2136431
Yabia, a host of accusations without a single example – i asked you twice how they are litvishe, and you have not given any explanation, just stating that they’re litvishe.November 8, 2022 11:23 am at 11:23 am #2136437
Yabia, what do you mean by “the Sefardi derech”? We do not know what you refer to.
Ujm, Rav Shach was in theory “land for peace”. Le’ma’ase he was strongly opposed to it as he did not trust the Arabs. I think he was also opposed to joining a left-wing government in Israel.November 8, 2022 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2136451
1. The outward appearance (hats, frocks, peyos, black and white, etc.)
2. Their stance on Zionism. Although they are probably the most lenient with Zionism in comparison to other “chareidi” factions, they still harbor a somewhat hostile view towards the state. If you look at the writings of countless Sefardish rabbonim in the past, they had an affinity to the idea of the State. This is a fact.
3. The kollel system. This is a modern, Ashkenazic invention. By kollel system I mean that people en masse do not work and instead learn long term. This NEVER existed in Sephardic lands. There were yechidim who did that but by and large, parnasa was encouraged. Even Rabbonim worked.
4. Adopting more machmir approaches to Halacha like the Litvish tend to do.
There are other examples but these are the main ones. The reason we like Shas is because we relate to it. We relate to it because it was copied from us.
No one should get offended from this. People should just realize that the Litvish derech is not universal. There are other ways of thinking.November 8, 2022 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2136485
Yabia, most shas voters do not wear black hats and jackets;m, and the gedolim wear the “glima”. I cannot believe that your accusation of being litvishe boils down to the clothing many members wear and the embrace of kollel life.
The kolel system is not ashkenazi or sefardi. It was done, according to the ran( a sefardi!!) In bavel, but was not the norm in either Europe or the sefardi countries. All sectors of klal yisroel recognized the practical need for kolel on some level, some push it more and some less, but there’s nothing ashkenazic about it.
Would you rather the sefardim wear Arabic clothes like they did before moving to Israel? Or would you rather them dress like Israelis in jeans and t-shirts? Would that make them more sefardi? Why not just dress like the most ehrlich people?
It would be great if sefardim went back to the way they dressed in Iraq, etc… But they didn’t. Before rav ovadia, they didn’t learn much and dressed like modern dati people, so which is better?
Also, most sefardi rabbonim were very against shaitels; that’s one way you can see their external differences.
No wonder you held off on answering; you knew how empty these claims are.November 8, 2022 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #2136487
Another sefardi source for kolel is the ohr hachaim, who wrote that anyone who wants to learn all day with emunah peshutah will be supportd min hashomayim.
He also questioned if in his time, since “nismaatu halevavos “, if it’s still an ideal to work and learn together for most people. Kal vechomer today.
And zionism was opposed by many sefardim. The sefardi beis din in yerushalayim put rabbi kooks books in cherem. The baba sali made a siyum on the vayoel moshe and said it’s the sefer of the generation.
In reality, most ashkenazi rabbis, if we’re looking at quantity and not level, were supportive of a state in some way, especially after the fact. Most sefardi rabbis probably were as well. It’s the gedolei olam, the chazon ish, brisker rov, who saw passed it, and their view became verified and accepted as time went on and people saw how bad the state is and how baseless the ideology is.November 8, 2022 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #2136488
1. You’d rather Sefardim wear Turbans and a long dress, as that is the traditional Sefardic dress (especially for Sefardic Rabbonim)?
Yes or No, YO?
2. You are absolutely incorrect about Sefardic gedolim in the pre-state era having any favorable view of Zionism or a Zionist State.November 8, 2022 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2136516
They should just dress as they would’ve anyway without any compulsion to look like an Eastern European. If that means jeans and a t-shirt and they are overall good Yidden, so what’s wrong with that? If it means a turban and being very ehrlich, so what?
The point is: Educate yourselves. The more education and togetherness there is, the less ignorance there is.November 8, 2022 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2136535
YO: You never complain about Sefardim wearing a suit and tie is them copying the outward appearance of Europeans or that Sefardim wearing jeans is them copying the outward appearance of American hippies. Your only complaint against Sefardim is them copying the outward appearance of Ashkenazi Bnei Torah.November 8, 2022 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2136541
So dressing like secular and modern Israelis is fine, but dressing like the people who they identify with(more religious) is a problem and European influence?
Jeans and t-shirt is Western influence, so why is that ok but European isn’t?
And no, it’s not ehrlich to dress like a hippie or chilled out secular person based on a culture of pleasure seeking. They look indiscernible from goyim, and the style isn’t modest. Are there any ehrlich people who wear jeans and tshirts? I’m sure there are, but they’re lack8ng the ma’alos of constant reminders of their jewish ess, and the modesty that accompanies our choice of dress.
Your problem is that they’re more religious, and i think you’ve all but admitted that.November 8, 2022 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2136545
Also, being machmir in halacha… please provide some examples or sven one example where sefardi practice under rav ovadia became more strict. There aren’t any.
Rav ovadia championed returning to the ways of the beis yosef, and almost always eschewed the chumros of the kaf hachaim. He was maikil by sefardi standards. Were there misguided sefardi rabbis who happened to be chief rabbis who were extraordinarily lenient, largely due to nationalistic capitulation? Yes, there were. Eav ovadia was not like that.November 8, 2022 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2136570
Perhaps they were lenient based on solid halachic grounds? You are proving that there is a preference to be machmir (RE: my other thread).November 8, 2022 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2136579
Sephardim dressing up as Poles aristocrats in 17th century is surely to the glory of the revived Polish state … or, in other words, somewhat absurd.
The way it works – Sephardim are mostly for blending in reasonably. They dressed like Arabs among Arabs … So, now they are surrounded by Litvish-dressed people in B’nei Braq and Leikwud – so they assimilate into this community. If they were to really have the same shitot as Ashkenazim about maintaining their traditions in every aspect – they would walk around in colorful turbans.November 8, 2022 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2136580
Does Menchaem Begin have anything to do with encouraging Sephardim to uphold their own, leading to creation of Shas?November 8, 2022 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2136600
Avira, wearing tzitzis and a yarmulke are enough reminders of Jewishness, strictly speaking.November 8, 2022 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #2136599
Begin was the closest thing to a frum PM that Israel ever had. He was very pro-torah, and reached out to the gedolei yisroel. He also kept shabbos and Kashrus. From what I’ve read about him, I think he would have supported sefardim maintaining their religious traditions, why wouldn’t he?
Yabia, you’re focusing in on one rabbi that i mentioned. He wasn’t just meikil, he was capitulating to zionism. Ashkenazim had that too with shlomo goren. Sefardim had it, although he wasn’t as bad, with one of their chief rabbis. Rather than let his opinions fall into the obscurity they’re supposed to, eliezer melamed based his fake conversion standards on him.
Rav ovadia was a far greater figure than him anyway, and he was very meikil in general. Ashkenazim had their meikilim too, like the naharsham, for instance.
Name one p’sak from rav ovadia that was machmir like the ashkenazim – you won’t find it. What you will find, is kulos where he allows sefardim to eat in ashkenazi restaurants who rely on the rema for bishul akum – he bases it on being metztaref the yesh omrim in shu”a that beis yisroel is entirely mutar.November 8, 2022 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2136617
> Begin was the closest thing to a frum PM … He also kept shabbos and Kashrus.
SighNovember 8, 2022 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2136616
When other politicians were thinking on how to re-educated Sephardim, Begin was addressing them, elevating them, reminding them that they are descendants of traditions of Rambam …November 8, 2022 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2136624
Mdd, and how many modern people walk around in baseball caps with their tzitzis tucked in?November 8, 2022 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #2136638
Avira, what’s your point?November 9, 2022 12:56 am at 12:56 am #2136651
Mdd, i didn’t set out to bash jews who don’t dress noticeably Jewish, i was trying to show that sefardim dressing European doesn’t mean that they’re losing their mesorah, because the alternatives were either to dress like they did in arab countries or copy the irreligious and less religious Israeli population, who dress like Western goyim. I mentioned that there are ma’alos in the way ashkenazim (and sefardim in their countries) dress, that it’s a constant reminder that they’re Jewish, etc..
Then you said that it’s enough to wear a yarmulke and tzitzis, to which I’m replying that if sfardim would dress the way yabia thinks they should, they often wouldn’t have any reminders of their jewishness at all, because people in the modern world often completely hide their jewishness.November 9, 2022 2:02 am at 2:02 am #2136660
What would be wrong with wearing Arab or Persian levush according to those who wear Polish levush?November 9, 2022 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2136718ZushyParticipant
what is going on here?
R’ Ovadia was tremendously tremendously tremendously great.
He was entitled to his own opinion’s and hashkapha,
he was Sephardi, and very very proud of it.
Shas follows his opinions.
How can you be more sephardi?
BTW, his opinion’s on the state were based on a very thorough understanding of the Torah, of the mindset of the present day zionists, and a very very very honest will to do what Hashem genuinely wants.November 9, 2022 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2136687
Aaq, there’s nothing wrong at all if they decided to dress like they did in Europe, but that’s not yabias point. He presumably wants them to dress Western and modern, and is only upset about them dressing European.November 9, 2022 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2136730
Zushy, no one chas veshalom is contesting Rav Ovadia.
Avira: I don’t want them to dress like anything. They should dress however they wish without compulsion to fit in some kind of box.November 9, 2022 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2137027
YO – can you point to a single stitch of evidence that ashkenazim pressured the sefardim to dress like they do? They did it on their own because that’s how bnei torah dressed in that area. They didn’t care where it came from, just that it’s representative of bnei torah at that time and place. I personally would dress like a sefardi ben torah if that became the recognized fashion.November 9, 2022 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2137053
Not all pressure is explicit.
You are right. There is an opinion that says a black suit and a hat is now the “uniform” of Bnei Torah and it is irrelevant that it happened to come from Europe. I get that.November 9, 2022 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #2137145
> there’s nothing wrong at all if they decided to dress like they did in Europe,
Freudian slip 🙂November 9, 2022 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2137149
Personally, I am not concerned that Talmidei Chachamim dress a certain way that they can be seen from afar. I am concerned that non-Talmidei Chachamim dress like Talmidei chachamim causing confusion for others – and themselves.
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