History of the Shas Party
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- This topic has 173 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 6 months, 2 weeks ago by AviraDeArah.
November 9, 2022 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2137154
AAQ, cute, but i digress – “a person should always make themselves like a talmid chochom” applies here, because if someone carries themselves like a TCH, they will have more yiras shomayim…. Just don’t fool yourself into thinking you are one in the processNovember 9, 2022 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2137172
Good question. There is definitely a value of dressing up like someone and then you start behaving like one, sort of a neder. On the other hand, possible problems:
– Tocho Kvaro – you presenting yourself as something you are not (yet?), leading to:
– gnevas daat – people get up when you come in, do business with you, marry their daughters to you, etc …
probably most concerning – others have a mitzva to aspire to be talmidei chachamim, and they will look at someone who just dressed up as an example, and then _they_ serve as an example for the next generation ….November 9, 2022 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2137173
I recall from learning this sugya that there is absolutely no problem taking difficult things like talmid chacham – not working on erev 9Av, etc.November 9, 2022 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2137176
There was a guy in yeshiva years ago who had nisyonos..many of them. Bad family life, mental health issues, and more. He asked rav belsky if he should dress modern, because he wasn’t acting like a Ben Torah anyway, and he didn’t want to fool himself. Rav belsky told him that he should keep dressing yeshivish, because eventually he’ll overcome his challenges.November 9, 2022 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2137177
Raban Gamliel lost the argument that only proper students could learn and they brought in extra benches, but did they put all the benches in the first row!?November 9, 2022 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #2137180
“keep dressing yeshivish”. What does that even mean?November 9, 2022 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2137190
“keep dressing yeshivish”. What does that even mean?
It means dressing Jewish. Jews dress differently than gentiles. And they should dress differently than gentiles.November 9, 2022 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #2137193
Yabia…the way people dress in the yeshiva world. Black and white, with a fedora.November 10, 2022 12:35 am at 12:35 am #2137197
U> Jews dress differently than gentiles.
There is value here, but we need to admit that generations and generations of Sephardim, Ashkenazim, Bavlim, Israelim dressed like most people around them. Some wear a hat because “this is proper to be dressed in front of an important person” – opposite of what you are saying.November 10, 2022 12:35 am at 12:35 am #2137198
> Black and white, with a fedora.
this is circular reasoning – we dress properly because we dress like we dress. And others are not proper because we are Hashem’s fashion setters.
at least for women who lately dress in similar colors, sans fedora, Gemora says mefurash that in some places a present for ladies are coloured clothings – that were way more expensive back then.November 10, 2022 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2137244PekakParticipant
Yabia Omer (earlier in the thread)
<It’s so obvious that we Ashkenazim are just too closed minded to appreciate the authentic Sephardic derech.>
Yabia Omer (last night)
<keep dressing yeshivish. What does that even mean?>
Probably the biggest troll in the history of CR!November 10, 2022 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2137282
troll, or just stubborn delusion?November 10, 2022 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #2137364
“It means dressing Jewish. Jews dress differently than gentiles. And they should dress differently than gentiles.”
So in order to dress like a Jew it needs to be “Yeshivish” dressing? Wearing brown slacks and a maroon shirt would be considered unbecoming of a Jew?
“Yabia…the way people dress in the yeshiva world. Black and white, with a fedora.”
Please seem my other thread. Who owns the Yeshiva world? Who decides what is and is not considered part of the Yeshiva world? Do all Jews who study in a Yeshiva subscribe to this mode of dress.? There is no Yeshiva World. Lo Haya velo nivra. And it is certainly not dictated by some MO-turned-Chareidi from Passaic or Five Towns who decides.November 10, 2022 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2137365
And instead of stopping and saying “hmm, perhaps YO has a point here that I can ponder, even if I ultimately don’t agree with it”, you’re kneejerk reaction is to call me “stubborn”, or “inferiority/superiority complex”, etc. etc.November 10, 2022 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2137426
I haven’t seen a single point to ponder. What I’ve seen is 3rd grade insults of “you’re a girl,” historical nonsense about shas not being sefardi because some of its members dress like the bnei torah in their area, claims that rav ovadia, an extremely maikil posek, was influenced by supposed ashkenazi chumros, without a single example, and claims that kollel is ashkenaz, which is demonstrably false.
Then i made the mistake of stooping to your level about the hangup with the colors of how bnei torah dress; it’s not that big of a deal, it’s just the current way bnei torah chose to dress, and it represents the humility and diginity of that station, but of course to you it’s arbitrary and European influence – i wouldn’t care if bnei torah chose to wear blue, brown, or other dark colors which can show humility, but jeans and t-shirts are not the way a ben torah of any world would dress, they’re just not.
either way, dress is a very important issue to you, but it has nothing to do with the claim that shas is influenced by ashkenazim. They built up the sefardi world and taught exclusively sefardi torah, from the beis yosef to the ben ish chai and rav ovadia himself. It’s kol kulo sefardi, and only a stubborn delusion obsessed with outward appearance can look at a sefardi ben torah living a torah life according to the halachos of rav ovadia and say that he’s not sefardi because he happens to dress like the bnei torah in his time and place.
What have i not “pondered”?November 10, 2022 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2137431
The Torah world simply means the community who takes Torah very seriously and lives their lives around it and its study. It’s very real. Walk inside BMG, and any beis medrash for baalei batim in Lakewood, and you’ll see a Torah world. Even moreso in eretz yisroel.
That’s the only real world. The others, obsessed with the pursuits of this world, are not in the Torah world, but rather in the world of olam hazeh, of gashmius, of nationalism, of democracy, or othersl made up fantasies.November 10, 2022 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2137439
Is someone who doesn’t like in Lakewood, but say, Denver and studies Torah when he can part of the Torah world? Is a simple Jew who only knows Tehillim part of the Torah world?November 11, 2022 12:51 am at 12:51 am #2137452
Of course they’re part of the torah world if they keep the mitzvos without compromise, goyishe influence, and consider torah study to be the central, most important part of their lives – a jew who is ignorant but supports Torah can be considered a Torah jew, but he needs to address his ignorance; there are easily available English translationa of almost everything nowadays.
It’s not limited to Lakewood/bnei brak/Brooklyn/yerushalayim but those are the centers from which everyone else benefits.November 11, 2022 8:10 am at 8:10 am #2137455
Ever Jew has a cheilek in Torah. Even those Jews who don’t make it a central part of their lives and even if they are not medakdeik in every (or any) Mitzvah.November 11, 2022 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #2137497
Avira > they keep the mitzvos without compromise, goyishe influence, and consider torah study to be the central,
congrats, this is a good start, but you give yourself enough caveats here to slide back every time you disagree with someone. Is going to work, or doing professional work, compromise? This would invalidate many Tannaim. Is knowing Aristotle or science – goyishe influence? Here go Rambam and other Rishonim. Of course not, you say, “I know it when I see it” and here is where one loses the objectivity and follows emotions.
I suggest you tighten your definition to make it less ambiguous.November 11, 2022 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2137523
Yabia Omer, The Yeshiva world is BMG, Mir, Beis Ha’Talmud, Chaim Berlin etc. Do not pretend you did not know this. Having a cheilek in Torah and being a Torah Jew are two different things. Do not pretend to be that ignorant. Is an OTD fellow a Torah Jew? However, potentially he has a cheilek in Torah.November 11, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2137564
Is a small Yeshiva in the middle of Teheran part of the yeshiva world? Is a Dati Leumi yeshiva part of the yeshiva world? Is a Jewish day school in Paris part of the yeshiva world?November 12, 2022 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #2137605
Every Yid or a group who sit down to learn in any small shtibel or in their houses are the Torah world.
The Torah world is not limited to a location or age group.November 14, 2022 7:07 am at 7:07 am #2137899
Not according to mdd1November 14, 2022 9:52 am at 9:52 am #2137939
Not everyone who reads the Babylonian talmud is a Yeshiva person.
People who learn torah without goyishe preconceived notions or haskalah influence, who don’t inject nationalism into gemara, who revere every word of chazal as dvar Hashem, are the Yeshiva world.November 14, 2022 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #2137993
So why did mdd1 make it seem like only the “well known” American yeshivas are part of the Yeshiva world? This demonstrates a severely closed-mindedness, typical of contemporary American religious Jewry.November 14, 2022 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2138010Reb EliezerParticipant
mdd1, what happened to the chasiddishe yeshivas?November 14, 2022 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #2138192
Mdd1 was mistaken, and chose a small list. The list is a lot longer and includes many shuls where learning is done seriouslyNovember 14, 2022 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #2138194
YO, I’ve taught sefardi boys for several years. Do you know how many children think that the Jewish world consists of kew gardens hills, and that everyone else is a small fringe? Then when they get older they see what the greater world is about. Mdd did the same thing; there’s a very, very large Torah world, and not just America and Israel, there are kollelim in Europe, South Africa, everywhere.November 14, 2022 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2138212
When they say “the Yeshiva world” they mean what I wrote. Just explainnig the idioms to YO who pretends not to know them.November 14, 2022 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2138221
Avira > without …, who don’t inject …, who revere …
again, this is a subjective list through which you feel free to reject anything you don’t like. Just say – “I respect anyone I respect”. This is as non-Torah attitude as some of the excesses you are, often rightfully, criticizing.November 14, 2022 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2138223
Avira > Do you know how many children think that the Jewish world consists of kew gardens hills
One of my kids was shocked when he realized that there might be more non-Jews in the world than Jews and many of them are not janitors in his school. But if MDD is also in the first grade, I’ll try to be more understanding, bli neder.November 14, 2022 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2138281
Are Satmar Yeshivas part of the Yeshiva world?November 15, 2022 12:56 am at 12:56 am #2138287
YO, I already answered your question. “The Yeshiva world” is an idiom with a certain meaning. Stop pretending you do not understand. AAQ, the same goes for you.November 15, 2022 7:25 am at 7:25 am #2138327
What’s the certain meaning?November 15, 2022 8:32 am at 8:32 am #2138364
Why do people feel the need to try and put limits on what makes up the Yeshiva World? And why even use that term? I think the Torah world would be a much better one to use.
I remember when I graduated high school, one of the boys spoke about what the purpose of a yeshiva is. He said that we could learn Torah outside a yeshiva – get a chavrusah, and learn! He concluded that the reason is to form a bond with a Rebbe. So if you want to define “the Yeshiva World”, I’d say it’s anywhere that you could develop that relationship. I’ve written many times that I learned in Darchei Torah. The bond I formed with R’ Bender shlita and other Rabbeim continues to today.
The Torah world , IMO, encompasses anyone who follows the Torah. It’s more about people, not institutions.November 15, 2022 9:31 am at 9:31 am #2138370☕️coffee addictParticipant
Spoken like a true darchei talmidNovember 15, 2022 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2138380lakewhutParticipant
Is a person who is registered in BMG but learns once a week more of a Torah Jew than a working guy who learns every day?November 15, 2022 9:59 am at 9:59 am #2138393
Coffee: what do you think shows someone as a Darchei talmud?
Lakewhut – there are too many factors that would go into deciding whether someone is a “Torah Jew”. We would never know all of them. So why bother trying to figure out if someone is more or less than someone else?November 15, 2022 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2138414
Damoshe, there is value in assessing who is loyal to Torah and who isn’t, because of the influence they have on us and our community. When MO people don hats and jackets, and promote LGBT, they are an insidious danger that can wreak havoc on basic yiddishkeit.November 15, 2022 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #2138436
Why make a “world” out of the Torah or a Yeshiva? Keilu, we’re on the inside and you guys (meaning people who are less affiliated) are on the outside. Aren’t we one nation? It’s true that those who are committed to learning have a zchus and a maila. But can’t we all consider all yidden to be in the same oilam?November 15, 2022 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2138477
Aveirah, your sinas chinam is truly astounding. You will take any chance you can to malign a huge segment of frum Jewry.November 15, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2138481
YO, i just explained why. See above; influence is a very big issue. That’s why European jewry fell prey to maskilim; they didn’t want to dissociate themselves from the outsiders. Yekkies under rav hirsch were successful, as were chasidim, chasam sofer yiden, and hard yeshivish people, but the rest fell aside eventually. It’s one of many lessons to learn from the Holocaust.November 15, 2022 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2138499
I think that Reform became Reform BECAUSE of that approach. In other words, because they were pushed aside, they went further astray. Instead of keeping them in the fold, and being mekarev them or at the very least, trying to find Halachic solutions to the issues they had, they pushed them away and they became more extreme.November 15, 2022 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #2138521
YO – we don’t owe anyone halachik solutions to problems that they dream up or copy from goyim, that would be ziyuf Hatorah. Also, they weren’t pushed away at first – many in the frum world thought that they were not so bad. Mendelssohn’s books were in the homes of many frum people, as were other maskilim. There were rabbonim…. I’d rather not say their names, who shared and learned with maskilim, even taking some ideas from them.
Reform were more open about their intentions than the quasi frum maskilim. It didn’t take long at all for them to throw out halacha and encourage intermarriage in Germany.
We cannot change or water down yiddishkeit to accommodate people whose stated agenda was to lower yiddishkeit; it’s self destructive.
Damoshe, where is there hatred and why is it baseless to decry people who wear hats and jackets but promote LGBT, such as the abomination couple who came into the news a few months ago because the “wife” got fired from teaching in a yeshiva? How is that baseless? They’re trying to ruin judaism with their apikorsus. M not referring to rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik or the like; today’s MO young people are either talmidim of rabbi shechter, and relatively normal, or crazed leftists bent on feminism, LGBT, and more.November 15, 2022 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #2138528
Also, damoshe, i think rabbi bender would change his view of YU if he read the commentator, walked in the dorm rooms of students, or heard what goes on in yeshiva college. Even if he read rabbi shechters teshuva on land for peace, i think he would see that we’re not dealing with normative judaism.November 15, 2022 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2138531
Fool. The Reform don’t have anyone to blame for their rishus, other than themselves.November 15, 2022 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2138533
You realize you are willing to be mafkir 80% of world Jewry? Shouldn’t we do everything in our ability to keep them in the fold? No one is saying to compromise Halacha. But there is more than one way to approach these things.
Also, what profound trauma did you go through that you have these views? Share with us.November 15, 2022 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #2138537
Avira, Yasher Koach for explaining so well what Torah Judaism and Yiddishkeit really is, as opposed to the charlatans who attempt to redefine it to something other than what the RBS”O wants.November 15, 2022 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #2138544
Aveirah, you’d be surprised about how well informed R’ Bender is about these things. I think you’d also be surprised if you walked into the RIETS Beis Medrash on any evening during the zman.
As for the left-wing people who call themselves MO, you’re mistaken. They usually follow Avi Weiss, who doesn’t call himself MO, he used the term Open. Even the ones who don’t only make up a tiny part of the MO community. Just like in any community you have outliers, so too MO does. No MO Rav will back them, so they certainly don’t represent a valid view of Modern Orthodoxy.
You mentioned the case of the ex-teacher in Brooklyn. He doesn’t even claim to be MO, he and his family claim to be Chabad. He also claims to halachically be a woman, based on the psak of the Tzitz Eliezer, who ruled that if someone has the surgery, they are halachically the gender they currently have the parts of. While most disagree with this psak, the Tzitz Eliezer certainly was a gadol that may be relied on. My only question is did this person ask his own Rav and receive this psak (based on the T”E), or did he choose on his own to follow it?
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