How should one protest against shmoozers during davening?

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  • #605200

    jewishness
    Participant

    Is there any way to get members of a shul to stop talking during davening, laining, etc?

    I davened in a shul this past shabbos where there was a considerate amount of shmoozing (by a few people, most were serious) and no one said a word in protest. I am sure there are plenty of people who would like to say something but are uncomfortable opening their mouths or are mind-your-own-business types.

    The scary part is that the Rav has the most responsibility of all yet he also was busy minding his own business! Is that not one of the responsibilities of a Rav which he is paid for?

    What should a caring Jew do who finds himself in such a situation? Walk out? Protest? mind his own business? pray that they stop? hand motions? sign language? curse? spit? dance?

    #901810

    bubka
    Participant

    Tell the unrelenting yakkers “sheigetz aross”.

    #901811

    abcd2
    Participant

    The gentle approach is always the best. With a smile just gently say that you are having a problem concentrating or explain that as you have so many distractions during the week that when you get to shule on Shabbos it is really your only restful time to communicate with Hashem.

    Whomever you speak to already knows about assur lidaber bishas hatefilla. I have been to shules and people scream SHaa, NU or quiet or give loud claps. They make just as much a disturbance as the people talking, come off as meddlesome even though they are in the right, and nobody really listens. Eventually calm demeanor wins over the respect of others and when people see you, people will know that you are someone that does not like talking during Davening. They will automatically clam up when they see you and perhaps change their own behavior from your example.

    B) I ask you to consider your opening paragraphs in describing the situation you faced in Shule.

    ” davened in a certain shule this past shabbos.” Does that mean you were a visitor? You also wrote “The scary part is that the Rav ….?”

    It seems to me that you were a guest.If so it is basically impossible to judge a Rav or the people that Daven there. Even if you are a regular perhaps the Rav is working behind the scenes.

    Don’t get me wrong whether a guest or a regular you are entitled to a normal Davening, but perhaps the Rabbi is working on this Mida with his shule and you dont know about it? And perhaps even some of the perpetrators themselves are trying very hard not to talk.

    I have been a guest by family, friends, neighbors… on Shabbos.Sometimes the same kids act out repeatedly in the same manner,and you wonder why the parents are not disciplining differently.(similar to the Rabbi this is a main function of their job) but of course we don’t fully know what is going on behind the scenes based on our short visit.As an outsider looking in it is not always possible to get a clear picture.

    In some extreme examples I know of two people with short term memory issues, one with a mild social anxiety disorder,and a few people with major tzaros that just want to blow off steam to their friends. (these are people whom if you saw them on the surface in a million years you would never suspect such things are going on)These people truly struggle with keeping quiet in shule and it is a real nisayon. It is very hard to know how others are truly working hard on their midos.

    May Hashem see that we are truly Amech Kulam Tzaddikim in what other nation in this day and age would you have people complaining and working on a Mida about talking in the presence of a G-d that can’t be tangibly seen or heard?

    Tizku Limtzvos!

    #901812

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Daven louder.

    #901813

    takahmamash
    Participant

    In one shule were I regularly davened, the talking around me was terrible. I asked the Rav if I should try to shush the talkers, and he told me it was better to move my seat “since the talkers won’t pay attention to you anyway.”

    #901814

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The one time I said something to someone about it, I immediately regretted it. As a result, I don’t protest anymore… I just sit and simmer.

    The Wolf

    #901815

    WolfishMusings: How did he respond that caused you to regret asking him to quiet down?

    #901816

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    He was fine about it. Nonetheless, I still felt terrible about the whole thing.

    The Wolf

    #901817

    Toi
    Participant

    take off your belt and wack him

    #901818

    WIY
    Member

    You need to have the right personality to pull this off: give him a look like he is a martian that just landed his UFO in shul while motioning with your hand to your mouth and making a why hand motion that it should be apparent that you are asking him how on earth can he talk in shul. However this will only work on occassional talkers not on “hardened” talkers who have been doing it for years and likely dont give a darn about Davening altogether and are just there to “hock.”

    #901819

    apushatayid
    Participant

    When I was a kid, there was an older man in shul that had a business card that said (am transliterating into english) “anshuldik, nish mit mir, ich redt nit bay em davening” in yiddish and on the reverse in english it said “please respect the sanctity of the synagogue and refrain from idle talk while inside”, and he would give it to anyone who tried to talk to him during davening.

    #901820

    jewishness
    Participant

    Sadly the phenomenon of a few members shmoozing in shul is not uncommon. Also, there are rabbanim who are not eager to stir up trouble so they keep quite.

    The real way is that when a Rav sees that guys are chatting he should motion to the chazzan to stop and everyone will wait until the lowlifes clamp up. If its done a enough times, eventually the shmoozers will get the feeling that they are not welcome and they will either shut it up or change shuls.

    #901821

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    I have the following printed up on a piece of a paper that I carry in my talis bag:

    “If one will talk in Shul, it is better for him/her to not come in the first place. (Kaf HaChaim Siman 151:8 and Chida in Sefer Pesach Einayim) IF YOU NEED TO TALK, PLEASE STEP OUTSIDE THE SHUL.”

    #901822

    golfer
    Participant

    Shoot them.

    Halacha lemaaseh, jewishness, not much you can do. The real shmoozers will resent your interference & continue talking. classic aveirah goreres aveirah leading to possible lashon hara, rechilus, leitzanus, onaas devarim, the list goes on. Maintaining decorum in a shul begins with general punctuality, cleanliness, etc and begins with the Rav.

    #901823

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    My pride in our shul came when a bunch of new baaleibatim were shmoozing during Shemona Esrei on Rosh Hashanah eve. It was important, though. They were discussing the best way to get to Woodland Hills.

    #901824

    CRuzer
    Member

    apushutayid, that’s a nice story, but it can only be done by certain people. If you’re 75 years old, and the people talking are in their 30’s, then asking them to please stop would be very helpful. If you’re 18…not so much.

    I think age is the deciding factor here. Sometimes there’s just nothing you can do.

    #901825

    monseeyid
    Participant

    “Maintaining decorum in a shul begins with general punctuality, cleanliness, etc and begins with the Rav”… Couldn’t have said it better.

    #901826

    WIY
    Member

    jewishness

    There really isnt much that a Rav can do. You expect him to stop the shliach tzibbur every other minute? And doesnt the Rav need to Daven and have kavvanah too?

    I just wish the shmoozers went out into the hallway. At least that way they dont disturb everyone who is trying to Daven like a mentsch.

    #901827

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    There’s a sign I saw in the hallway of a shul: ??? ???? ???????, something to the effect of – if you gotta do it, do it here.

    #901828

    takahmamash
    Participant

    The one time I said something to someone about it, I immediately regretted it. As a result, I don’t protest anymore… I just sit and simmer.

    Back in my brash teenage days, I actually went over to an older gentleman in shule who sat in the midst of a talking group. I asked him, respectfully, if he could stop talking. He then gave the whole shtick, saying I was being chutzpadik, yada yada yada. Then he asked me why I singled him out from the group, and I said, “You have smicha, you know better.”

    At mincha that afternoon he came over to me and apologized, telling me I was right, and that he would work on not talking during davening.

    #901829

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Seen in a shul in London:

    “If you come to shul to talk, where do you go to daven?”

    #901830

    WIY
    Member

    I wonder what would happen if shuls appointed a Gabbai to go around tasering people who talk…

    #901831

    jewishness
    Participant

    Shuls ought to appoint a Gabbai to go around harassing and embarrassing people that don’t keep their trap shut when they are supposed to. Or the Rabbi should stop prayers when the trap doors swing open.

    Imagine you are sitting in the docket by a court case schmoozing it out with the guy next to you. What will the judge do? Ignore you? No way! He will stop the court proceedings stare you in the face and say either you keep quite or you are expelled from the court room. If you ignore him they will escort you out. Why is a shul different for crying out loud?

    #901832

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    My father Z”L would call those old men who used to shush everyone the “Heysedandah” As in “Hey, sit down there!”

    #901833

    miritchka
    Member

    As apushatayid so simply posted: daven louder.

    #901834

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    As apushatayid so simply posted: daven louder.

    That has the problem of being inconsiderate to other people who are davening nearby.

    The solution to talking in shul isn’t to disturb other non-talkers.

    The Wolf

    #901835

    americaisover
    Participant

    u shouldnt u should be dan lekaf zechus and say wow these people wish to daven and hope to mashpai from the others. you are not G-d to judge.

    #901836

    Loudly!

    #901837

    vochindik
    Member

    “daven louder.”

    That has the problem of being inconsiderate to other people who are davening nearby.

    No it doesn’t. Davening loud is a positive attribute that everyone should be encouraged to do.

    I’ve been to shuls where everyone is, essentially, screaming out davening. It is a beautiful site to behold.

    #901838

    welldressed007
    Participant

    or try the following:

    Ain le’hispalel be’sha’as hadibur!!!!!

    make light of it to help when you ‘highlight’ it, it works much better.

    #901839

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No it doesn’t. Davening loud is a positive attribute that everyone should be encouraged to do.

    No, it should not. If you daven very loud, you very well could end up disturbing other people’s davening, whether you feel that it’s proper or not.

    The Wolf

    #901840

    musser zoger
    Participant

    I learned somewhere that davening very loud makes one m’k’tanei ha’amana. As if HKB”H can’t hear unless he yells.

    #901841

    WIY
    Member

    musser zoger

    “I learned somewhere that davening very loud makes one m’k’tanei ha’amana. As if HKB”H can’t hear unless he yells.”

    Only by Shemonah esrei.

    #901842

    kingdavid
    Participant

    REPLY TO

    “I learned somewhere that davening very loud makes one m’k’tanei ha’amana. As if HKB”H can’t hear unless he yells.”

    THAT ONLY APPLIES TO SHEMONEH ESREI

    #901843

    jewishness
    Participant

    good idea. when folks shmooze during prayers pray LOUDLY really close to them till they feel real weird.

    #901844

    jewishness
    Participant

    This week was another shmoozer……I hope I do not get violent!

    #901845

    How about the fellows who get upset at your davening… because it is interrupting their conversation?

    #901846

    WIY
    Member

    jewishness

    Why dont you walk over to them and daven really loudly so they get the message. See what happens and let us know.

    #901847

    Think first
    Member

    Jewishness- there are different types of shmuzers and the way to deal with them varies. There are those that will talk only until asked to to stop and they really don’t want to make a scene either so when asked they stop They will.There’s another type that I call the “addicted shmuzer” usually it’s someone who doesn’t have an appreciation for davening, kedushas beis medrash and authority in general. This addicted shmuzer needs to feel something when he come to shul, he doesn’t get that feeling from davening so he get his fix from the only way he knows how to; shmuz, hock, looking at others and taking about anything. I mean it’s a sight to see! There’s a shul in Lakewood where I daven from time to time and this type of shmuzer “shmuzes” there I can’t say he davens there. I mean he’ll even shmuz with children! Any type of shmuzing stimulation is alright for him. Everytime I see it my blood boils. The Rav seems to ignore it maybe because this guy pays his salary and it’s a tough spot for him. Enough ranting, if your shmuzer is the second guy I destribed, theres nothing you can do besides kick him out of the shul. It won’t change. Nada. He needs his fix.

    #901848

    dhl144
    Member

    One should worry about himself and take the precious time to realize that he/she is not perfect and niether is any1 else and everyone should work on perfecting themselves not perfecting everyone else around them…Then everyone will get far…That’ll be the day…WHenever I go into a daze and realize that I was thinking bad about a person that i noticed doing somthing wrong while I was apaceing out…I try to tell myself that I am not perfect either…Then if I still feel like thinking about the person I was thinkking bad about I try to think good about them…Or i try thinking of things I must perfect in my own character…Try it, good luck, All the best.

    #901849

    vochindik
    Member

    dhl144: Talking during davening is a crime against everyone else in shul being disturbed. It isn’t just a person sinning that only affects himself.

    #901850

    dhl144
    Member

    vochindik:most ppl that are busy shhhhhh-shhhhhing other ppl are too busy worrying about everyone else thats talking and they are forgetting that they are supposed to be davening and they are too busy trying to fix the rest of the world if they would realize their own issues enough then they would be able to be so focused on their own prayers that the talking wouldnt matter tp them and they’d learn to tolerate

    #901851

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    dhl144: Could not disagree with you more. From the Halacha a Day website:

    One who talks during Chazaras HaShatz is a sinner, and this sin is too great for any individual to bear.

    If one will talk in Shul, it is better for him/her to not come in the first place. (Kaf HaChaim Siman 151:8 and Chida in Sefer Pesach Einayim)

    Pretty clear that others talking does affect EVERYONE in the shul.

    #901852

    miritchka
    Member

    WolfishMusings: I didnt think of it that way. I meant that it would be directed at the talkers and not disturb others. If the talkers are behind you, walk behind the talkers and raise your voice a bit so that your voice travels into their conversation and they would hopefully get the hint.

    #901853

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    WolfishMusings: I didnt think of it that way. I meant that it would be directed at the talkers and not disturb others. If the talkers are behind you, walk behind the talkers and raise your voice a bit so that your voice travels into their conversation and they would hopefully get the hint.

    If you’re not going to disturb other daveners in your protest, I suppose it’s okay.

    But don’t count on me to do it. As I mentioned above, I no longer protest such things, but rather just sit and simmer about it.

    The Wolf

    #901854

    Geordie613
    Participant

    YehudahTzvi

    Wow, My father also says “heysedande”!!

    #901855

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    I would ask the Rav if he can give an inspiring class about it that might get people thinking..

    #901856

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    wow abcd2 i liked what you posted!

    #1806008

    knaidlach
    Participant

    if you will tell those who are talking, in shul while they are talking, chances are that they will answer back: mind your own business; who are you to tell me: etc. etc. the best way would be to pick up a phone during the week, when you are relaxed, and the other party is not in middle of talking in shul, and tell them what inpact his talking has on yourself. you came to shul to daven and hear krias hatorah and how its disturbing you etc. dont give them mussar, just focus on yourself. so 1) call during the week. 2) focus on yourself. try it out and let us know how it went. HATZLACHA RABBA.,

    #1806007

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
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