April 21, 2013 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #609105
My daughter recently received a call asking about a girl she knows. One question that she was asked is “Does she dress Tzniusdik?” Now, that’s a difficult question sometimes. This girl wears tightish skirts which barely cover her knees. Also some of the styles she chooses are questionable. What should my daughter have answered to this? She doesn’t know what the boy is looking for. Perhaps her style of tznius would be ok with the boy. If she would have asked the caller what he’s looking for, or say that there are different standards of tznius, that would already raise a red flag. Mind you, this girl is a sweet frum girl and my daughter wouldn’t want to do anything to ruin a possible shidduch.
Any advise from our CR friends?April 21, 2013 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1042499popa_bar_abbaParticipant
She should ask for more specific questions.
Popa would say: “I’m happy to talk about that. But people have very different conceptions of tznius. Certainly she is not dressed like the taliban women in ramat beit shemesh, and certainly she isn’t dressed like rachav. So I’ll tell you the sort of way she dresses, and tell me if you have any follow up questions.
She always wears skirts and long sleeves. Her skirts…”April 21, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1042500
Tough one. If the caller knows your daughter, it might be fair to assume that their standards are your daughter’s standards.April 21, 2013 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1042501Torah613TorahParticipant
I usually tell people that I don’t answer open-ended questions (especially for anonymous callers). I do that by saying “I only answer yes or no questions”. This prevents a lot of issues. As a reference, you are there to assure the other person they are not going out with an axe murderer, and are basically what they say they are in the resume. Don’t talk too much.
This goes into the category of questions you automatically say yes to unless it’s an outright lie. Yes, this girl is tzniusdig. She may not be to your standards, but she has some tznius. They didn’t ask you if she dresses like a BY girl.
It’s like when you’re asked if a girl is smart or pretty. You just say yes. Because all that counts is what the boy she is dating thinks. If he thinks she is tzanua, smart, and pretty, then great.April 21, 2013 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1042502popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I usually tell people that I don’t answer open-ended questions (especially for anonymous callers). I do that by saying “I only answer yes or no questions”.
I also say that. But I say it whenever I don’t want to answer the question.
And they usually know what I mean, if you know what I mean.April 21, 2013 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1042503computer777Participant
This girl wears tightish skirts which barely cover her knees
She should say that and let the person she’s speaking to decide if that is tznius enough or not.
I usually tell people that I don’t answer open-ended questions
Basically, you should just say you don’t give information at all. Because you’re really not giving any information. Like you said: everyone is somewhat tznius. Everyone is also somewhat smart. So really, the information you give is not worth anything.April 21, 2013 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1042504
Popa – I like your answer. Certainly my daughter would not use your quote verbatim (ex: the taliban and rachav reference, as my daughter wouldn’t want to sound chutzpadik after all she’s also in shidduchim ;)), but it does give us something to work with. Thank you.
DaasYochid – The caller does not know my daughter. Even if she did, I don’t think she should assume that the two girls would have the same tznius standards. Just because they know each other does not mean they are the same in every aspect of hashkafah.April 21, 2013 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1042505Derech HaChaimMember
gefen: your daughter should answer “no”. She should be honest. Dressing in tight clothes with the knee sometimes uncovered is not tznius and she should say so if asked. (I’m not suggesting that she should raise this chasoran is she wasn’t asked about it.)April 21, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1042506Torah613TorahParticipant
C777: Well, the people I give information for seem to get engaged, so I must be doing something right. 🙂
It is though. Because I do, in addition, have a prepared story for each friend that illustrates the few things I do volunteer. If they are nice, I help them rephrase into something I’m willing to answer.
I think they get a better picture from talking to me than from the rest of the she’s-extroverted-but-not-too-extroverted, pretty-but-tznius-and-not-vain, and smart-but-will-respect-your-son crowd.April 21, 2013 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1042507
“This girl wears tightish skirts which barely cover her knees. Also some of the styles she chooses are questionable. “
or, as i put it:
“She’s fashion-forward and wears beautiful skirts that always cover her knees”April 21, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1042508
Gefen, moot point for this case if the caller doesn’t know your daughter, but if she did, since tznius standards differ, she probably would be asking your daughter’s opinion according to her own standards.April 21, 2013 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1042509
Derech Hachaim – I hear you about being honest but saying “NO” seems so harsh. As I said, we don’t know what the boy in question is looking for. He might be ok with it.
Brony- Your quote says “always covers her knees”. I said “barely covers” There is a difference. But I do get what your saying about wording things in the best possible way.April 21, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1042510
Daas “Gefen, moot point for this case if the caller doesn’t know your daughter, but if she did, since tznius standards differ, she probably would be asking your daughter’s opinion according to her own standards.”
So my daughter should answer according to her own standards? Then the answer would be “No – she does not dress tzniusdik” but that’s the whole problem here, she doesn’t want to say that (and I agree with her). It’s so harsh. We are trying to find a nice way to put it without ruining anything and without sounding “holier than thou”.April 21, 2013 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1042511
By the way you either keep laws of Tznius or not there’s no halfways tznius. Just like the texters on shabbos made up a term “half Shabbos” which doesnt exist. They are mechallelei Shabbks. Wearing too tight or too short is like saying I occasionally eat McDonalds but I still keep Kosher. Don’t blieve me ask your LOR!April 21, 2013 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1042512
Torah613 – Hey, I give that same type of answer! I always tell them to ask me specific questions as I don’t do narratives.
In regard to the tzniyus question above, I understand the point you are trying to make but if a girl is not dressing tzniyus according to halacha, why are you going to let the person decide if it is tzanua not? It’s not up to them. They may still be willing to pursue the shidduch, they may be “okay” with her level of tzniyus, but why are you wondering if tight clothing and barely covered knees constitute a yes or no for that question?
Maybe you know it is a no but didn’t want to say so? That shouldn’t be your decision to make. I have too many friends suffering in marriages because people were more sensitive to their friend than to the shidduch. If the girl wants people to say she dresses b’tzniyus, then let her dress b’tzniyus. If I don’t want people to say I’m fat (which I am) then I should either lose weight or not be seen in public.April 21, 2013 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1042513writersoulParticipant
WIY: But that assumes that this person is being oveir on what they hold is the halacha and they justify it by saying “it’s only a little too ___.” OTOH, if the person just holds by a different, halachically-based standard than you do, then that wouldn’t apply.April 21, 2013 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1042514
It sounds like we are talking about 2 girls who were similarly educated and one girl (Gefens daughters friend) chose to keep looser standards of Tznius. I’m no baki on hilchis tznius but who holds that you can wear a skirt that when standing barely covers the knee which when sitting would certainly bare her entire knee and then some?April 21, 2013 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1042515
wait, so wearing “tightish skirts” that “barely cover the knees” is no longer halachically tznius? it’s over, the seminaries have won. surrender now, logic, and we will kill you quickly and painlessly.April 21, 2013 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1042516
Ask a shaila from a regular Orthodox Rav and then go join the MO because you won’t like the answer.April 21, 2013 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1042517
please dude, tell me where it says any of this. any of it. only then will i consider taking off my wading boots when reading your posts.April 21, 2013 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1042518
Gefen, she could just say that there are different standards of tznius.
WIY, writersoul, and Syag, the question isn’t necessarily about halachic standards, it’s about the caller’s (or the boy’s) standards. If there’s a chance that his standards are sub-halachic, it still might be a good shidduch.
AFAIK, there’s no issur of lifnei iver for the one giving information if the girl dresses according to the boys’ standards, even if they’re not l’halachah.April 21, 2013 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1042519
They never were. the fact that more people are comfortable wearing clothes like that doesn’t mean that they are tzanua. And my friends who wear clothes like that are more than willing to admit that they are not dressed halachically appropriately and they acknowledge their struggle, just as I acknowledge my struggle with certain mitzvos. Why does that offend you? It doesn’t make the person less valuable in my eyes, but I’m not obligated to accept everything they do as torahdik.April 21, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1042520
DY – I think you are missing the point. If someone asks you if the girl is dressed tzniusdik and her knees are showing than it doesn’t matter what his standards are. She is not dress tzniyusdik. He may not mind, but that doesn’t change the halacha. If she was dressed in a way that was not tzniyus according to SOME poskim, but yes tzniyus according to others, than by all means, say so. The boys standards of tzniyus don’t determine whether or not she is dressed tzniyusly, they just determine whether or not he will APPROVE of how she dresses. If she wears pants and he doesn’t mind, then the shudduch can continue. But that doesn’t change the tzniyus answer to ‘yes’.
I think the discussion is being based on questions of hashkofa, but the example that was given was halachik.April 21, 2013 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #1042521
can someone, anyone, source their info here? yeah i know every by gives the “tznius is more than elbows and knees” speech ad naseum, but – surprise surprise – that doesn’t make it halachic. i don’t mean to say that its right, only that you shouldn’t present it to a caller as being contrary to halacha if it isn’t.April 21, 2013 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1042522
Syag, I think you are missing the point (so there! 🙂 ). The caller is not asking a halachah shailah, (s)he’s asking a shidduch question. You’re supposed to answer the question according to the intent, not necessarily the technically correct answer.April 21, 2013 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1042523
DY – 😛 I wouldn’t even consider that. The question to a halachik question would have to be a halachik answer, but with a disclaimer or clarification about the compatibility. I think it would be awful if we started answering halachik questions with subjective answers. If you are asked if he is koveia itim, and to you there should be a 3 hour minimum, you can say yes to that question if the boy only learns one hour because it is still halachically accurate. If he just reads the Yated every night you would be lying if you said yes, even if the girl would consider that gevaldik. Halacha is halacha, hashkofa is hashkofa, and as far as I am concerned, emes is emes.
And I add for Brony’s sake that that doesn’t change their value as a human being, it is just stating the facts as they stand.April 21, 2013 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1042524ToiParticipant
“he’s not totaly michallel shabbos…”April 21, 2013 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1042525
lololol you say “Halacha is halacha, hashkofa is hashkofa, and as far as I am concerned, emes is emes” yet you conflate the three like it doesn’t matter.April 21, 2013 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1042526
actually, I didn’t at all.April 21, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1042527
It is common knowledge and normative halacha that a girls skirt must cover her knees fully sitting as well as standing.
Don’t pretend that you never heard of this.April 21, 2013 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1042528
oops i thought you said 1 hour is not okay. apologies.April 21, 2013 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1042529
WIY, i have heard it, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is “normative”. also note that nowhere in the original post did they say anything about whether the “barely covering” referred to sitting or standing.April 21, 2013 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1042530
I think we (my daughter and I) are more confused now than we were before. Although, we do hear everyone’s point here. It just seems so complex and confusing. But Syag (and others who said this), you are 100% right – tight skirts and showing the knees is NOT tznius. That is a fact. And you’re also right that the boy’s level of what is acceptable also does not determine what is tznius. So maybe I’m not as confused as I thought. It’s just finding a way to answer these questions that’s kind of uncomfortable, especially for a girl who is also in the parsha.April 22, 2013 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1042531big dealParticipant
I think that if they asked the question then it does matter to them. Also if she dresses a certain way wouldnt the boy notice when they went out. This is a chitzonios question which the boy could judge himself why do you have to answer that?April 22, 2013 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1042532yehudayonaParticipant
big deal, unless she’s stupid, she’ll dress tznius for their date.April 22, 2013 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1042533big dealParticipant
Not necessarily. Unless she usually dresses extremely not tznius like skirt way above knee.April 22, 2013 3:23 am at 3:23 am #1042534yetelzMember
this is an all too common problem, nebech. tznius has gone out of style.April 22, 2013 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1042535chanasaraMember
why doesn’t your daughter nicely respond “people mean different things when they talk about tznius. i would like to be helpful and accurate. how do you define tzniusdik in dress?” and then the woman can refer to her (or her son’s) very specific standards and your daughter can answer without seeming like she is trying to hide anything.April 22, 2013 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1042536just my hapenceParticipant
I rarely answer shidduch inquiries these days as almost everyone I know is married, but when I did I would always give the “I only answer direct questions” speech before the caller said who they were asking about to ensure that they knew it was not a way of avoiding answering difficult questions. Most people seemed to get it, though I still had a few who asked me things like “what type of boy would you say he is?”…April 22, 2013 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1042537
I think it would be awful if we started answering halachik questions with subjective answers.
Yes, and my point is that it’s not a halachic question. No matter how it’s worded, it’s a question of compatible standards, so, not knowing the caller, it’s an impossible question to answer.April 22, 2013 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1042538
chanasara; Thank you for your answer. That sounds like the best way to handle this.
DaasYochid; Right – I was not asking a halachic question (at least I don’t think I was). I just wanted opinions on this delicate topic.
However as others pointed out, Tznius is a halacha. Wearing tight skirts and not totally covering the knees is not tznius, and it really shouldn’t matter what the boy’s standards are. The question was “does she dress tznius”. However,I don’t agree with the comparison to the half Shabbos – texting situation. I see one as black and white and the other as possibly having some grey areas.
Anyway, I think we will go with chanasara’s advice for now.
Thanks everyone for your input.April 22, 2013 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1042540mddMember
Gefen ,it is not different than Shabbos, even though Sotan would like you to believe otherwise.April 22, 2013 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1042541🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
gefen- Please tell your daughter to answer honestly. I don’t mean she has to be knocking- she can say something like “her skirts are usually covering her knees”. She wouldn’t be preventing a happy marriage from happening if she finds a way to say it politely. If he feels cheated, they wouldn’t be happy.April 22, 2013 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1042542dotnetterMember
WIY – “By the way, you either keep the laws of tznius or not. There’s no halfway tznius”
In that case, let me add – you either keep the laws of talmud torah or not, theres no halfway. so were you ever guilty of bittul torah? That negates all the hours you spent on talmud torah – theres no halfway! You either keep the laws of shabbos or not, theres no halfway. So all of us out there who are guilty of chillul shabbos (biting nails, biting lips, ripping letters etc.) are just through and through michalellei shabbos.
Yiddishkeit fortunately does not work that way! We are all, as human beings, works in progress. And we all, as fallible human beings, keep some halachos ‘halfway’. And hopefully we all, as Jewish human beings, are constantly trying to fix that.April 22, 2013 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1042543rationalfrummieMember
Dotnetter +1April 22, 2013 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1042544oomisParticipant
I have had worse questions asked of me. Someone called me and once asked about a wonderful young man with all mailos. Then,3 the person said, “But I hear the mother is a difficult person. Is that true?” The mother does have a very strong personality, but I didn’t want to come across speaking negatively about her, while at the same time I did want to try to answer the question. So I simply said that the mother has strong love for her children, she is the type that will always advocate for their happiness, and that the girl who is lucky enough to marry the son (who is terrific, bli ayin hara), will be very much loved by this mother, if she is a good wife to the son and good mother to the aineklach. All of that is the truth.April 22, 2013 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1042545
DaasYochid; Right – I was not asking a halachic question (at least I don’t think I was).
Actually, you were, and should definitely speak to an expert in hilchos loshon hora.
What I’m suggesting is that the caller wasn’t necessarily asking a halachic question. In other words, let’s say the caller’s standards are sub-halachic. If the girl has the same standards, then that’s really all the caller is asking for.
Again, that’s my opinion for the sake of discussion, but I think you need a psak on this.
Anyway, I think we will go with chanasara’s advice for now.
It might be sound advice, but I just want to point out that you initially rejected the idea. I quote from your OP:
“If she would have asked the caller what he’s looking for, or say that there are different standards of tznius, that would already raise a red flag.”April 22, 2013 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1042546mddMember
Brony, if there is an accepted Halochic practice in a community, if you want to question it, it is you who has to bring proofs to the contrary.April 22, 2013 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1042548a maminParticipant
Why don’t we be truthful when it comes to shidduch information? If he or she asked apparently it is important to them. Yes, there are those who have different standards of tznius, BUT you won’t find any orthodox Rabbi tell you , tight fitting or short skirts are tznius! Wake up and smell the coffee!!April 22, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1042549
“Brony, if there is an accepted Halochic practice in a community, if you want to question it, it is you who has to bring proofs to the contrary.”
no. ff you can’t justify your actions at even he most basic level (halacha l’moshe misinai/chok/some othr broad concept like kavod habriyos), you shouldn’t be doing them.
while i’m here, let me poll the crowd for sources for to two practices that i have stopped doing for lack thereof: lifting pinky toward torah during hagbah (fun fact: you should wait until you see the words side before you say vizos hatorah, for rather obvious reasons) and lifting your posterior up (aka “standing”) when saying “baruch sh’achalnu…”. Haven’t found them, and no longer do them. come at me bro.
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