July 28, 2008 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1086192The Big OneParticipant
Such a question arises from ignorance. It goes without saying, and I’m certain I speak for everyone, that such activity that you describe is sick. Anyone who engages in it is from a lunatic fringe. That you should equate that with the holy mitzvah of tzinius, speak for itself of your views of the subject. (Its somewhat akin to asking a pro-lifer if he supports those who bomb abortion clinics. You want to defame pro-lifers?)
There is not a single group that shaves, that advocates mandating that for all Yidden. If you are blinded to the tzinius crisis (and if there ever was a crisis, this is it) and refer to concerns to alleviate it as “Burkification and Nunnification proceedings”, than you have a lot of soul searching to do, once you are out of denial.July 28, 2008 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1086193Feif UnParticipant
Pahuteh Yid: Just to note, shaving the heads isn’t a tznius issue, it’s because they hold it’s a chatzitzah when the women go to the mikvah.July 28, 2008 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1086195
To be pashut is good- tamim thya im Hashem. . . but your comments are anything but pashut. I am sorry everyone in this thread agrees that acid bleach screaming etc. . . is not going to bring about more tznius. I think the point of this discussion, which is an important one is to try to think of different more palitable approaches. Why do you need to mix in all this shtuyot into an important discussion. If Joseph or who ever strated this wanted to throw acid on untzinusdig women he and all the rest of us would do so, we are brainstorming and sharing ideas to work towards a common goal. If you don’t share that vision or in your neighboorhood everything is fine (please tell us where you live cuz I live ina really frum place, and I still think there are ways to go in this area) than maybe you should try a different “room”July 28, 2008 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1086196
Feif Un: I thought shaving heads had something to do with the goyisheh rulers in the middle ages kidnapping Jewish brides.
The big one: I am glad to hear that you feel that acid-throwing is from the lunatic fringe. So tell me, why hasn’t there been a big asifah to make it crystal clear that this behavior is intolerable? BTW, there are kannaim who throw rocks and debris on the roads of Beit Shemesh every erev SHabbos to keep cars from driving. What if CV an ambulance needs to get through. Why not an asifah against this type of behavior? My feelings are personally that the biggest crisis is kannaus and hurting other yidden. See post on Freikeit thread.
Second, yes, I am in denial that in Lakewood there is a tznius crisis. I have much difficulty processing that. True, I am only very rarely in Lakewood, but I can’t believe that this is a crisis. Will we next hear that posters are going up in Lakewood telling people to stop eating their Seudos Shabbos in the Lakewood McDonalds? Should we warn the Bnei Torah that cheeseburgers are not a proper fullfillment of lechem mishnah according to the Chazon Ish? Should we make an asifah to inform them that driving on Shabbos to McDonalds is assur according to the Brisker Rov, even if you only go for Shalosh Seudos, and even if you make a minyan and lein in the McDonalds.
A tznius crisis in Lakewood??? In Lakewood, a tznius crisis???
In conclusion: I have invited Sister Mary from the local archdiocese to give a short talk to the women of Lakewood on proper dress code. (Please forgive this silly joke, but I can’t get over this thread. It is too funny. In Lakewood there is a tznius crisis???) Oy vey iz mir. (I apologize and don’t mean to belittle anybody, but sometimes can’t control myself with the jokes.) Once again, let me get this straight. There is a tznius crisis in Lakewood???July 29, 2008 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1086198
There is no “acid crisis.” A lunatic fringe is just that, and no more. If you had an asifa after every lunatic incident, you’d never be done finding different lunacies someone somewhere did. An asifa is for something that is prevalent and should not be. As much as you’d like to find fault with Bnei Torah, acid throwing is not an activity, thank G-d, that often happens.
At least you admit you are in denial about the tzinius crisis. Once you open your eyes it will not be difficult to see. Eating in McDonalds and driving on Shabbos, if it even exists in frum communities, is another fringe lunacy. Yes there is a tzinius crisis in Lakewood, Boro Park, Faltbush, and many other frum communities in town (i.e. NY) and out of town.
The choizek you make, is of Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, Rav Mattisyahu Solomon et. al. all of whom found there to be a tzinius crisis, called the asifa and determined to take action regarding the tzinius crisis with a vaad hatzinius, etc.
And then you wonder why some people refer to you as being “pro-freikeit”? When you make choizek of Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, Rav Mattisyahu Solomon et. al. with your pathetic jokes about them being wrong and there is no tzinius crisis, that is the road it leads you to.July 29, 2008 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1086201
I am not chas vshalom making choizek about gedolim. I am finding it hard to believe that the epicenter of the bnei torah in the USA would have a problem with tznius.
If you told me Times Square had a problem with tznius, I could hear it. If you told me Las Vegas had a problem with tznius, I could believe it, as well. But I am shocked that of all places, Lakewood could have one. These are the most elite Bnei Torah, I just can’t process it. I have also been there a few times, and never saw anything remotely problematic among the people I visited, or at the simchas I attended. Could somebody please explain what the people of Lakewood are doing wrong in their manner of dress?July 29, 2008 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1086202
Perhaps you hadn’t intended to make choizek of the aforementioned Gedolim, but indeed you have done so. When you make pathetic jokes about how wrong they are, that is making choizek of the Gedolim. THEY, the Gedolim, stated loud and clear THERE IS A TZINIUS PROBLEM, and you compared their ideas to the Taliban, Nuns, and said NO, THERE IS NO PROBLEM.July 29, 2008 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1086203
Let me clarify further that my hypothetical moshol about McDonalds was meant to say that just like I could never believe that the Lakewood bnei torah would eat at McDonalds, (and they don’t, I was only kidding), similarly, I can’t believe that they wouldn’t keep the laws of tznius.
But let me add one further point. It seems that the science of cosmetics and manufacture of clothing and sheitels has simply advanced to the point that the products are much more attractive then they were a generation ago. Even though they cover the proper halachic requirements of the wearer, they simply look nicer. I think this is possibly what is bothering some people and what they call a crisis.
This is why I make jokes about the dressing like a nun. Please show me a source that Jewish women must be ugly and dress in shlumpy clothes, and cannot wear nice makeup and perfume and jewelry in public. The fact that the bnos yisroel look nice is that a chisaron. Weren’t many of the imahos praised for their appearance. (Rivka) Vhanaara tovas mareh m’od. vRochel haysa yefas toar vyifas mareh etc.
Aren’t there chazals that say shelo yitain einav b’acher? Shelo tisganeh al baala. Was it never the minhag of women to wear makeup and nice dresses outside the home? Please tell me what has changed.July 29, 2008 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1086204chavieMember
Tznius Story by my firend Avigayil(i did not write it -my firend did!!)
She wore Abercrombie shirts, Hollister or Juicy sweatshirts with a wife beater underneath (occasionally backwards). Overall, she was just a normal girl- volleyball, debate, dance head, and a million more teams and extra curricular activities throughout the year. She had her bad days but her friends were always there to cheer her up.
One day she was extremely confident because she was wearing her favorite socks and had gotten compliments from girls that were not only seventh and eighth graders. They were cute. They had pompoms but they were extra special because they went underneath the ankle so you do not feel hot and the pompoms went higher so you could wear any shoes with them.
She was schmoozing by the office with her friends when the bell rang and then ran up the stairs at warp speed because her teacher then just does not understand that you need a few minutes to get to class after break and that other teacher take away the beginning of your break so you need the extra time.
Anyway, she ran upstairs but on the way something weird happened to her foot and she fell down the stairs. She screamed and Hatzolah was called. After a few days and a lot of Tehillim she died.July 29, 2008 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1086205
an asifa against throwing acid will accomplish absolutely nothing. An asifa will help people who want to do the right thing and don’t realize they are straying. They will listen if rabbonim tell them to change. The acid throwers and other kooks in RBS are hooligans. They will not listen to to anyone who tells them their actions are wrong.
FYI – I saw in last week’s Yated that the Toldos Aharon rebbe from Meah Shearim spoke out against those hooligans recently. He said that Reb Amram Blau’s kana’us and protests came from his yiras shomayim and ahavas yisroel. It hurt him to see other yidden doing an aveirah and therefore he felt the need to protest – lshem shomayim. However, he said that today’s protesters’ actions are derived from bad middos, not ahavas yisroel or yoras shomayim.July 29, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1086206
i only saw your reply now so thats why the late response.
regarding the pack of clips, no thank you, i’d like my nephew to remain a leader.
and regarding the tzniyus issue:
usually i agree with what you write, however here why do you go to the extreme!?
my point of the story wasn’t to say the girls and women should dress like nuns or as the taliban does, my point is the men should just stop starring!
I heard from a rebbizten, women and girls should NOT dress shlumpy rather THEY SHOULD DRESS ATTRACTIVE! yes, women should dress attractive, when a girl is in shidduch age, the father is MECHUYAV to buy her nice clothes-for a boy to be attracted to her!
and about lakewood, they do have a tzniyus issue, b”h not so severe but it is bad. come on the weekday and you’ll see for yourself.July 29, 2008 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1086207July 29, 2008 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1086208ujmParticipant
Pushut Yid, Neither Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, nor Rav Ephraim Wachsman, nor Rav Mattisyahu Solomon said anything of the like. So who are you to spit in Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, AND Rav Mattisyahu Solomon faces?
How can you stand opposed to Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, AND Rav Mattisyahu Solomon on your own two legs? WHO ARE YOU TO STAND AGAINST THEM?July 29, 2008 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1086209
First of all, I apologize if I offended people, but I really never heard before that there was such a problem in the premier yeshivishe community of the USA. I still can’t believe it, and wish somebody could better explain.
Second, Charlie Brown, I am glad that the kannaus problem is being addressed. But here is the point: Nobody can tell the difference between sincere kanaus, and bad midos. Therefore, I feel there should be an asifa to make it clear that kannaus is assur completely. Lo pelug rabbanan. Yomru kol haserikin asssurin vserieki baytus mutarin?
Third, the kannaus must stop not only in deed, but in word also. That means we stop crticizing all people, including the sectors we disagree with. Again, how are we supposed to teach kids not to speak loshon hora, when it is “mutar” to speak against Rav Tendler? Do you think kids understand the difference (if there is any)? Do you think yeshiva bochurim understand? We therefore desperately need to call an asifa against all kannaus, and all loshon hora, and all onaas devarim across the board.
Fourth, One reason I was having trouble with the tznius asifa is because let’s say tznius isn’t perfect in Lakewood, although I personally think that it is anyway 95%, for arguments sake. However, the kannaus is tearing apart our nation. So for an extra 5% of tznius you call an asifa, but you don’t call it for the reason the bais hamikdash was destroyed, the sinas chinam which in my humble opinion is a far greater threat to the klal. Now I realize that the gedolim have endorsed and appeared on the CHofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation tapes to encourage an awareness to onaas devarim. But what bothers me is that unless kannaus is forbidded, all the lessons in those tapes and videos go down the drain, because people will always justify that their loshon hora is lshem shomayim, as opposed to the other guy whose lshon hora is simply bad midos.
SO I propose that we assur kannaus, and all loshon hora and onaas devarim completely, and make it clear that THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. Maybe this will bring the goel bkarov byameinu mamash.July 29, 2008 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1086210July 30, 2008 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1086212
Pashuteh Yid –
Have Emunas Chachomim. If the Gedolim feel their is indeed a problem in any of the areas you think their is a problem, have emuna that they will address it. Just because you think Issue X is a problem, does not necessarily imply that the Gedolim agree with your personal assessment.
I think you’ll agree that their assessment is wiser than your assessment.July 30, 2008 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1086214
firstly, it sounds like you know the gemara and shulchan oruch off by heart.
second, tzniyus issues are everywhere, and yes that includes the ‘iyr hatorah’ (aka. lakewood). yes, when people do come to Lakewood, for instance for a shabbos, they’d dress with sensitivity, because lemaysa in actuality their in Lakewood.
thirdly, what do you mean? are you saying tzniyus is not the main issue for a woman?July 30, 2008 5:06 am at 5:06 am #1086215torahis1Member
IF there is a tznius crisis… which could very well be…
Interesting, in R’ Efraim Wachsmans speech he lamented on the current state of dress of ‘nshei talmidei chachomim’. First of all, that makes an assumption that everyone in Lakewood is a Talmid Chochom….says who? Second, who says their wives are such yirei shomayim either? A year in seminary and all of a sudden shes a Rebbitzen?
Rabbonim and their wives of yesteryear were a rare and precious commodity. Boys and girls werent forced/intimidated into a life of full time learning like they are today-wholesale. Back then, a life of full time learning was for the privileged few who could hack it.. and they would only choose their wives who were on the highest levels of yiras shomayim. So it figures that the women back then dressed appropriately.
A bit of a contrast…Today, the boys what do they look for in a shidduch? $$$!!!
What questions are asked? What size is she? What size is her mother. Well, I guess we see where the tznius crisis starts…July 30, 2008 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1086216anon for thisParticipant
This reminds me of a story I heard from a friend named Saki:
There was onced a girl who was famous among her friends for her tznius. When her classmates would wear unsuitable clothing she would dress appropriately, and made sure to tell them how they should be dressing. Even when her classmates wore clothing that complied with her school’s dress code, she made sure to tell them if she felt their clothes were inappropriate.
Her teacher was so impressed by this behavior that she gave her a special “tznius medal” to wear on a chain (under her clothing of course). Unfortunately one day she was busy telling one of her nebach classmates that her skirt was the wrong type. As a result she missed the first bell and was running to class so she wouldn’t be late. Suddenly her “tznius medal” slipped and she tripped on it and fell down the stairs. Despite the many thousands who said tehillim for her she died.July 30, 2008 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1086218
The story Chavie told over is a “christian” method of scarring people with enternal damnation in order to get them to listen to the church. Stories like this and like the one about a shaitel macher whose grave was consumed by worms and the like do NOTHING to bring more tzinus inot the world. They drive people away from tznius. After all these women/girls were punished, there is no hope for me so why bother. Only through posotive encouragment will we increase tznius (see my earlier post about the sock story) When you see your daughter/wife dressed tzniu (from a young age) tell them “you look like a bas melach, and that is really beautiful, you look so shabbosdig”
Fear of punishment freezes people and prevents them from making any real change, and being that tznius is an pnimyous middah- no real change takes place, except a hatred of the topic tznius.
Lakewood should be proud that so many women and men want to omprove tzinus. Mi keamcha Yisrael!July 30, 2008 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1086220
“Fear of punishment freezes people and prevents them from making any real change.”
the above is Bowzers opinion.
R” Yisroel Salanter in Ohr Yisroel stresses over and over that the most important thing that all Yidden must work on and devote time every day to contemplate, is fear of punishment, in this world and primarily in the World To Come.
Msilus Yesharim and Chovos HaLavovos and Shareii Tshuvah also spend a great deal of time discussing the critical nature of fear of punishment.July 30, 2008 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1086221
feivel – you are correct, and I agree with you however Rav Yisroel Salanter was a healthly and his generation were healthy people. When a person is sick, they can not undergo a standard heart operation or procedure. Our generation is a very sick one, we have to be very careful as to which meds we take! When the Rabbonim spoke in Lakewood, they don’t say over these kinds of stories, Rav Falks book on tznius doesn’t have these kinds of stories. So I might conlcude from that the perhaps my line of thought is whith in the thougth of the Rabbaonim. And I also heard this ides expressed by quite a few Rabbonim who are very invovled in chinuch.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the above.July 30, 2008 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1086223
I agree with you 100%. However I just wanted to add that if a person’s actions are ONLY based on fear of punishment without a love of Hashem and his mitzvos then he will takeh, as bowzer said, freeze and be prevented from making any real change. On the other hand if fear is taken out of the equation and we only act on love of Hashem, then if we decide we’re not in the mood then we’ll stray. That’s where fear of punishment is needed.
Correct me if I’m not quoting correctly: Asei me’ahava she’ain ha’ohev soneh, asei miyiroh she’ain hayoreh boi’etJuly 30, 2008 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1086224
those Sfarim are timeless, as is the Shema which talks about punishment, as is the Torah and Neviim which are FULL of punishment and warnings. it is a FUNDAMETAL principle of Judaism. It certainly is not for me or you to say it does not apply so much anymore, CHAS V SHALOM.
i wasnt addressing what kind of stories should be told and to whom, i dont have such Chachmah. i was addressing the statement of yours that i quoted.
fear of onesh is not such a simple thing to achieve. it is VERY difficult, and requires learning Mussar every day, and great Siyata d Shmayah. Ahavas Hashem is only obtained today by a select few. I say this because R’ Salanter said it about his generation. He felt his generation to be on a low Madrega, and he stresses **more than anything else** learning and developing fear of punishment.
you know the story of the great Rebbi who as he was dying he blessed his Talmidim that their fear of Hashem should be as great as their fear of basar v dam. they said Rebbi, thats all?! he said : Alavai.July 30, 2008 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1086225
there are different meanings and levels to both Yireh and Ahavah.
this can be quite confusing as you and i are perhaps talking about different things
id like to drop this online subject for now if you dont mind
feivelJuly 30, 2008 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1086226Feif UnParticipant
Fearing punishment is obviously a high level to get to, but it is not the reason to follow the Torah. The reason to do mitzvos and follow the Torah is because Hashem said we should, and we should do that out of Ahavas Hashem. Read up on the differences between teshuva m’yirah and teshuva m’ahava.July 30, 2008 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1086227
fievel I am not arguing that one needs to know there is halacha and violation of halacha is wrong and one is accountable for all there actions. Nor do I think these seforim are outdated. However, in the use of these types of stories, they are used to scare people into doing things with out thinking and feeling, it is a short term scare tactic. WE do not know why Hashem chooses to do things in this world, we can not know if something is a punishment or a test. By claiming that certain things happen as punishment for sin X is not for us to determin. Each person does a personal cheshbon hanefesh and sometimes Rabbonim express their opnions to connect an event with instructions to be mechazek in a certain area. These types of stories which chani posted are not stories being told over by gedolim to instill yiras hachet in our hearts but rather stories being told over by people who want to be the “queen of tznius” and enjoy feeling holier than though. When I said “fear of Punishment” I was referring to these stories which evoke a “fake” sensationistic type of fear as oppsed to yiras shamyim, which means to see Hashem, to see that Hashem is always in front of me and is always with me a sees all my actions and Hashem who loves me, wants me to stay on the right path and if I stray will help me return to the right path and if I don’t get His messages, Hashem will send louder ones, which might be in the form of “punishment” and than if I still don’t get it one will pay the price in olam haba.July 30, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1086228
I agree that there are many different levels of yirah and ahava and that very high levels of yirah and certainly of ahava are very difficult to achieve. But even if we know we may never get all the way there, we need to know what the goal is in order to accomplish even a smaller madreiga of anything.
Please don’t feel the need to respond – I don’t mind at all if you want to drop this subject.July 30, 2008 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1086229
For a number of years there were a group of women who went fro city to city in ERetz Yisrael putting on a play to be michzek women in tznius. What was the play about? A women who was a tzeadkes, careful in shimras Halosheon,sent her husband to learn, raised her children in ahavas Torah, was tznu, didn’t wear a shatiel only tichel. When she dies she came to bais Din shel maala, and because she used to sing while she bakes, she was sentanced to kaf hakelah. Than her grandmother comes and her zechus she comes backa s a gilgul. This play was seen by many women, what was their reactions?
If she was so good and she was going to get kaf hakelah, what about me, forget it!
I took the play and changed it from negative to posotive, because she did something small and was carefull she was rewarded greatly in shamyim, The reaction- real change- women felt empowered to make a difference in the world, by making sure my skirt cover my knees I am bringing more kedusha into my home , my city the whole world, I am providing Hashem a place to rest his shechina. If the vaad hatznius would speak encouragingly to women, show them what amazing things they are doing by covering their hair, I think this would motivatie a lot of women to be more careful, and it does, i’ve seen it over and over again.July 30, 2008 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1086230cherrybimParticipantJuly 31, 2008 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1086231
Bowzer, you are 100% right about this scaring business being total nonsense and detrimental to a yid’s development, and frightening to a child.
First of all, Moshe asked the RBSH why tzaddikim often suffer and reshaim often prosper, and the RBSH said that he can’t give him an answer (vraisa es achori v’es ponai lo yerau). There is a concept of yisurin shel ahavah.
It seems one of the basic reasons for so much of the negativity and scare tactics used by the chareidi world stems from an incorrect understanding of why the RBSH created the world. The prevalent attitude is there is this very mean guy in the sky, and he gave us many difficult and mean laws, and if we break even one detail of one of them, then the mean guy gets no greater pleasure then bashing our heads to pieces, and burning down our houses. The mean guy has a major ego problem, and even one hint of disrespect will cause him to pour down his wrath. He created the world and the laws as a sadistic means of torture.
This hashkafah is baloney. The RBSH is an Av Harachaman. He only wants to give and give more. He loves it when yiddishe kinder daven and make brachos. Not because he needs the brachos, but because this teaches the children midos tovos, that they should always appreciate the effort that goes into all the good things we have and that people do for us. We must learn hakaras hatov.
We fast on Yom Kippur, as the haftarah says, to feel what it is like for a poor man to go without food. We learn to share our food, and invite the aniyim merudim into our homes. The RBSH wants nothing more than people should not hurt each others feelings, and should care for each others needs.
We have a Shabbos to teach us, that although we always worry so much about where our next meal and mortgage payment will come from, we have the right to relax, and let the RBSH worry about that for one day a week. We trust him that he will take care of us, even though we can’t do anything on our own that day. We also learn that even the other days when we do work, the results all come from him. He gave us our hands and our minds and all our talents, and created a sophisticated word that allows one to be paid for his skills. We also get a day to be with our families and learn intersting Torah thoughts, without the constant stress.
We have tznius to teach us that we can’t take what doesn’t belong to us. Each person has only one spouse. If we start up with another person, we deprive somebody else of his relationship with his spouse. We also ruin our own relationship with our own spouses. By reading the papers, we see how terribly certain famous people have messed up their lives and their careers by not keeping the laws of tznius. Hashem doesn’t want this to happen to us, as it is very painful. Even though these halachos are difficult, it saves us even greater pain in the long run.
We can go on and on. There is a moral lesson in each law to make us better and kinder and happier people. The laws are there for our own benefit. By learning Torah we learn more and more of Hashem’s kindness. We learn the chochma with which he created the world. We also learn to split hairs to arrive at the emes. Chas vshalom one penny should not be taken from a person unfairly in a din torah. This requires trained thinking skills which we get from the gemara. The Rambam says we can also develop ahavas hashem from studying science, and learn the incredible details and precision that are present in every part of the world. All these details are needed to make the world operate correctly for our benefit.
We have a beautiful Torah and way of life, and much to be thankful for. You can be sure that the RBSH is happy when he hears the sweet singing of a yiddishe mama when she makes challah. Rebbe Yisroel Salanter once said when someone complained of a maid’s singing that she has every right to sing, and the men need to get out.
It is sad that some in the Chareidi world miss the boat big time on the entire game plan, and in the process instill fright into little children in order to get them to knuckle under to their terrifying and primitive world view.July 31, 2008 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1086232
There Pashuteh Yid goes again on a tirade against the “Chareidim.”July 31, 2008 4:06 am at 4:06 am #1086233
at the risk of being accepted to your club, pashuta- (as refered to on a different thread)
This was a good post. In my work I deal with the results of this negative programming and it’s not easy to unprogram kids and even more difficult to unprogram adults.
Since this “room” was about suggestions on how tom improve tznius i have given mine.July 31, 2008 6:40 am at 6:40 am #1086234
JOseph- I don’t know pashuta, but I am charedi, very charedi and I live in a neighboorhood that is “meah shearim hakatana” (I am not the type of person you would think hangs out in “coffe rooms” aka chat rooms, what should I do If my boss doesn’t give me enough work?) but he/she (meaning pashuta) does have a point the yetzer hara is excellent at getting us sidetracked from the main point. Intresting that after boaz notices rus for her tznius he cbentches her “aynaich bsadeh” keep your eyes inthe field, stay on target, don’t get sidetracked. Similar to the bracha we bentch our children erev yom kippur, aynaich lnoach yabitu- your eyes should be forward- Look to Hashem- remember that that is what everything is about Hashem!
We want our children to be good frum adults, because we want what we know is best for them, but we often forget the direction we want to take to get there.
I am very happy youstarted this thread, I would like to returen to your original question and hear more suggestions on how to increase tznius in our communities.July 31, 2008 8:02 am at 8:02 am #1086235
One more VERy important point. A much needed caveat/correction to your understanding of R’ Yisroel Salanter.
First off. It is not just R’ Yisroel Salanter who said Yiras Shomayim is number 1.
FYI, the Ba’al Shem Tov and the Biggest Talmidim of the Ba’al Shem who are famous for there ‘positive attitude’ approach to sinners etc. have also stated quite clearly that the first step in Avodas Hashem is Yiras HaOnesh.
That being said….
Yiras haOnesh like any TRUE CHovos haLevovos cannot be forced on somebody. Every individual needs to work on this for themselves.
By using a positive approach a person’s heart cvan be opneded into developing Yiras HaOnesh for himself. These crazy stories DO NOT encourage any true Yiras haOnesh – the opposite they cause 1 of 2 things 1) rebellion 2) lemele keit.
In case you were not aware – Yiras haOnesh is not lemele keit. It shtams from a very healthy sense of knowing that Hashem – not some kook rabbi or rebbitsenm – is looking at me. Aderaba – a person w/true Yiras Onesh has Azus d’Kedusha (OZ v’Hodor LEVUSHA) – which as the Gemoro says in Beitza was the prime reason why klal yisroel were picked to be His nation.July 31, 2008 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1086236
Bowzer, thank you for your kind words.
Joseph, I am not trying to bash Chareidim. I am trying to look for the emes. I myself used to be a bigger kannai than you, believe it or not. But I am now in the process of doing tshuvah for it. I realize that in the past I had said things to people which were arrogant and hurtful because I thought I was acting lshem shomayim. I sometimes belittled things that were important and dear to others because I thought they were narishkeit, since they weren’t shayach to learning.
I now realize that everything people do for yishuv haolam is choshuv, and that there are many ehrlich and fine people who do much good for this world who are not frum, and not even Jewish.
In addition, people are not perfect robots, and there is nobody who doesn’t slip sometimes. Ein odom tzaddik baaretz. That is why we have a Yom Kippur.
Finally, those who know somebody who has R”L been ill with conditions such as a nervous breakdown, or have been in a situation which was so difficult for them that they felt like they were about to have a nervous breakdown because they couldn’t pay a bill or whatever, you realize what chochma the RBSH put into the world just to keep us all sane. If you see someody walking down the street whistling, you should immediately thank the RBSH that He has provided for the needs of this person so that he is relaxed and calm and happy and not in pain. Without knowing anything about that person, you can immediately tell how much effort the RBSH put into him. Sometimes I see certain minority girls walking into their local pizza place and like dancing while they wait to be served. This shows the gadlus of the RBSH that he made them happy and not in any pain.
Just to survive and remain sane for some people is a major avodah, and maybe they can’t take all the stress of doing every prat. This is another reason why I get upset at your attitude that it is a given that there is no compromising in halacha. If you really believe that, either you are dishonest or not living in the real world. You are denying the struggle that all people go through.
Lgbg, I do not know anywhere near that level in learning. I just know how to look certain things up, when necessary. I also have a Bar-Ilan CD which helps.
Also, the vort on aniyim merudim tavi bayis of earlier post I heard from somebody else. It happened to be Reb Shmuel’s mechutan. (So, obviously I would never be pogea in Reb Shmuel’s kovod. However, I still disagree with certain aspects of the chareidi hashkafa. Mainly in what the emphasis should be, and how to relate to other non-chareidi groups.)
Finally, one thing that turned me off to some of the chareidi thinking was what I read right here on YW. When I read about the ban because of the logo on the Bamba, and the letter from the guy who wouldn’t stand on Yom Hazikaron and who also held that one doesn’t need to thank his auto mechanic, I almost expelled my meal.
There is definitely a problem which is not being addressed in their way of thinking.July 31, 2008 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1086237gavra_at_workParticipant
have the gedolim assur/discourage premium cars, such as lexus, acura, BMW, etc.
Why do we need these except to show off?
If you need a luxury auto get an Avalon or Maxima fully loaded and you won’t be able to tell the difference. If you need to show off to clients then get a Prius or other hybrid, they will be more impressed by that.August 1, 2008 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1086238ZalmanParticipant
pashuteh yid, you might have a skewed view of chareidim based upon your unique or unusual (even if you don’t recognize it as such) circumstances. For you to call the Chareidim a “terrifying and primitive world view” is outrageously offbase.August 1, 2008 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1086240
Pashuta- one more thing (addictions are hard to break) SOME ONE ELSE YARD WHEn it bother them IS ASUR.
rELIGION (HALAHCA) Culture and mentality
three things to know the difference and keep them seperate.
Pahsuta- next time you come to EY (bmerha byamnu) get in contact with me and I’ll show you the beautiful side of charedi live.August 1, 2008 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1086241
so i guess your computer savvy.August 3, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #1086242
Lgbg, I should stick to making chulent.
Bowzer, I found your last post very hard to read and understand. But I do agree that there are many positive aspects of chareidim. However, those aspects are the ones that come from halacha. However, they have tacked on many layers of culture which have nothing to do with halacha and shulchan oruch onto the Torah. By doing this they are in the geder of kol hamosif gorea. They make it seem like keeping the Torah is such a terrible burden when it doesn’t have to be.
Let me give an example from the book Miracle Ride by Tzipi Caton (Shaar Press). The book is about a 16 yr old girl with cancer. Because of chemo, her hair fell out. She got a sheitel, but was uncomfortable wearing it sometimes, since she didn’t want to look married. She liked to wear a bandana. One motzaei shabbos she went to the store to get some things (Lakewood, I believe). A frum woman confronts her and says the bandana is not appropriate. She says to the woman that she has a disease, and it should be rather obvous why she is wearing it. The woman tells her, I don’t care. It is setting a terrible example for other girls. They get into an argument in front of the whole store.
Can you imagine the horrendous midos of this woman? To fight with a girl who has cancer in public??? Furthermore, there is absolutely no halacha whatsoever involved here. Just some stupid conception of some stranger that she doesn’t particularly like the style of a certain head-covering, and invents some frumkeit on the spot. Literally makes up a new Torah right out of thin air, and has the chutzpah to impose it on someone else.
This is chareidi culture, which has zero to do with shulchan oruch. Wearing black and white only for men is another example. A mishnah even says that one who thinks hashem won’t answer my tefilos if I wear colored clothes, must immediately be removed from being a baal tefila, and we are choshesh that he is an apikorus.
I hear that in Kiryas Sefer, boys may not play any team sports after a certain age (well below bar-mitzvah, I believe). Men may not jog. Correct me if I am wrong.
When you add on things that have no real halachic basis, and despite the fact that exercise is healthy according to the Rambam, (uses word mitamel, just like modern word hitamlut), you turn the rest of the klal off even to matters of real halacha. They just assume that everything the chareidi does is untraorthodox chumros, so they will not listen even to the halachic matters. I gave example of movies. Why should they listen, when you also tell them ball-playing is ossur. They rightly assume you have a different culture and upbringing. Again, kol hamosif gorea. If we want to bring the klal together, we may have to shed some excess baggage. Why not use the shulchan oruch as a nice compromise. The entire klal will keep the shulchan oruch, no more and no less.
I have many close friends and chavrusas in the chareidi world, and they are ehrlich people. I never was bothered by that world until I started reading some of the posts here by certain hotheads, who I am trying my hardest to convince myself are not representative of the chareidim in general. But unfortunately, I do believe that their hashkafas do reflect the chareidi leadership, although not necessarily their behavior.
As far as terrifying and primitive, I was referring to the pedagogical tactics of some, but not the chareidim in general.
Getting back to the original Tznius topic. Let me say that I don’t believe a Vaad Hatznius is the way to go in Lakewood. I predict a few things things will happen:
1) Bnai Torah will resent being told that they of all people don’t know how to keep tznius on their own. But because of the terror of getting a friendly letter or knock on the door from the Vaad which could mean that their kids may be taken out of school, or hurt shidduchim prospects or cause embarrasment, they will in turn terrorize their wives and children about how they dress.
2) This will lead to a spike in shalom bayis issues and people moving out of Lakewood.
3) The takana will be repealed, as was Takanas Ezra many years ago.
Have more to say (as if I didn’t already say enough), but another time.August 3, 2008 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1086243
seriously your making it?August 3, 2008 3:03 am at 3:03 am #1086244
You have demonstrated a repeated tendency to look for (and find) some extreme fringe anecdote involving someone who identifies as a Chareidi and using that to extrapolate and smear all Chareidim.August 3, 2008 3:58 am at 3:58 am #1086245favishMember
to pahute yid..afraid you said too much..you mention about gemmorah l’gabay colored clothing..the reason there is because there was certain sect of avodah zarah who were makpid to pray in white.. by the way pahute yid ..can you give some samples that differenciate bet. chreidi and not chreidi..we mean, what does non-chared do or not do as opposed to chreidi and remember you labled your self non-chreidi here and many posts thruout….and one diff. that is the chreidi dress black, non chreidi dress even colored we will not accept…August 3, 2008 4:42 am at 4:42 am #1086246chevramanParticipant
To me the whole issue is much simpler than everyone makes it. When a young lady dons a shorth or tight skirt or one with a slit, or any article of clothing that exposes her body or body form, what is she thinking??? Every girl has either a husband or father who is turned on by other women who dress provocitavly, so why can’t they explain to their loved ones that they don’t want other men coveting them? Forget about frumkeit! This is the most elementary thing that any human being should understand. And if they don’t think that lifney ivair is such a terrible thing, then why don’t they just walk down the streets completely naked, then everyone will look at them.
True it is very hard to find normal tzniusdik clothing these days, but if we would all put pressure on the stores, they will have them made, just as big manufacturers make shabbos ovens!August 3, 2008 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1086247
part of my last post was not posted.
A while back a mother cat had kittens (5) in our yard, she disappeared and my children began fedding and playing with the kittens. Some of our neighboors were very upset about this and told us that it is asur to have tamay animals as pets. They were so bothered by the animals they drove us nuts some called my children goyim etc. It is asur to have an evil dog as a pet and a pig. They put so much pressure on us that we gave in and let the father of this family take the kittens to who knows where.
It is asur to look into someone’s yard if it disturbs them. It is not assur (I actually thought it was develpoing very good middos in my children to have rachmanus on this animals)to have kittens as pets.
this is an example of chardei culture which has nothing to do with halacha. I hear your point Pashuta- very often we confuse religion and culture. The culture of a Jew should be comming close to Hashem, which is what being a Jew is all about. The story you said about the bandana makes me very sad. Personally I don’t wear bandana’s but when I see another women wearing them I am happy. Happy because 1.she is not wearing a shatiel. 2. Happy that in the year 2008 so many years after the bais Hamikdash had been burnt and we live amoungst the goyim there are still women who cover their hair!That is a nes. It doesn’t mean that we become complacint, but it is something to celelbrate.
We msut remember the original sin of Adam was that he added to the mitzvah with out telling Chava!!!
Joseph- maybe you want to respond to my post about all of us charedim who adhear to the rabbonim who are on this web site which is keneged their pesak? Let’s admitt that we ahve a lot ot work on oursleves!August 3, 2008 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1086248favishMember
to pashute yid..PS to our former post, see s’u ohrech chaim 53 seuf 18 l’gabay reason not wanting to daven in colored clothing is posile for sheluach tzibbur …not the first time you came with your am hartzishon pshat ( remember YOUR paht tosfos bruchous 5b d’h “dina belo dina”?).(what happend to your ‘bar illan’ cd). wont bother to find link ,takes too much time,and waste anyway because you all are not miode al huenmes and try to weasle out of every post of yours we refer you too…August 3, 2008 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1086249
Bowzer – Absolutely, we all have much to work on ourselves. I presume, many if not most of us have filtered net access as prescribed by the Rabbonim. (What doesn’t hold water, is when that argument is advanced in order to silence Bnei Torah when responding to anti-Chareidi and/or anti-Torah posts, so they can monopolize the argument without having to concern themselves with having the truth splashed on them.)August 3, 2008 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1086250
Bowzer, I agree about the animals. Moshe Rabbeinu was chosen not because he was the best guy in Lakewood, but because he shlepped a poor sheep. I was going to add this to a list which Reb Jent has asked me to compile about differences in chareidi culture, but will take some time to make full list. Your example is exactly what I am talking about. ALso, the fact that they called your kids goyim, and think that whatever inyan there is (if indeed there is any at all about animals) overrides onaas devarim and tzaar baalei chayim is the typical behavior I am taking about. I could not have said it better myself. The word chareidi too often means fear and trembling before one’s neighbor who will get your kids removed from school, and ruin shidduchim. It also means avodah myirah rather than meiahavah, as in my earlier post.
Another example, relatives in Lakewood told us about a guy who bought a convertible car, and was riding with the top down in Lakewood. Sure enough, they took all his kids out of school. Now, I am not defending an overly flashy lifestyle al pi mussar, but lmaysah, al pi din, there is not an iota of a problem with such a car. It simply didn’t mesh with the chareidi culture, so you have the right to be metzaer beyond all words every single member of the family including young kids. Is this what the RBSH wants? This ugly gayvah, I am better than you, and you are not good enough for our clique.
It is too long for now, but the Chareidi world is very frightened about anything that will cause the kids to go off the derech. What they do not realize, is that the hysterical fear itself is what is really causing the kids to go off. It is mamash like living in a witch-hunt. I don’t know how one can take it living in certain neighborhoods. I am willing to bet that the Vaad Hatznius will lead to less tznius on the whole, as kids and families snap under the pressure, and go their own way.
Reb Jent Shlita, Do not see anything in your citation that is kneged what I said. It says that apikursim were makpid on colors, michlal that yidden are not. A rayah to me. Doesn’t mention any one sect of ovdei avodah zara who wore all white. M”B brings the Pri Chadash who says if he gave an immediate amatla (explanation) that he was concerned about kovod hamakom, he can daven, but Magen Avrohom says even if he says it is anivus lifnei the RBSH to be in all white, we still do not let him daven. My Bar Ilan CD is version 12, and doesn’t have all the nosei keilim. Plan to upgrade, and think they have more, now.
Do not have any recollection of saying pshat in gemara brochos about story of sour wine bottles or of arguing with you over pshat. Please remind me. (I think you argued with someone else.) If true, will be my honor to argue with you over it again. Im shamata byoshon, tishma bchodosh, v’im lav, shuv lo tishma.August 3, 2008 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1086251
Lgbg, If you really have a day open for Sheva Brachos, and think it would be possible for us to make you one, please get in touch at @gmail.com">firstname.lastname@example.org. Can’t promise, as need to speak to my wife, and don’t know when the chasunah is, but we should speak. Maybe some of the YW crowd would come (if we can all stop fighting for 3 hours or so).
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