August 3, 2008 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1086252anon for thisParticipant
I do agree with Bowzer & Pashuteh Yid that when we confuse religion & culture, & behave as though certain things we don’t do are wrong (as opposed to things we just happen not to do), then we are also guilty of disenfranchising Jews who end up being excluded. I happen not to own a cat or dog (mostly because at this time in my life I feel that my young children k”ah are sufficient responsibility for me), but I’d never dream of telling someone else that it’s wrong to own one.August 3, 2008 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #1086253
Pashuteh Yid said “I am willing to bet that the Vaad Hatznius will lead to less tznius on the whole”:
Well guess what Reb Yid, the Gedolim disagree with you! And if having to choose between Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rav Mattisyahu Solomon, et al on one side of the equation, and Mr. Pashuteh Yid on the other, my choice is clear. Now if you have questions regarding something the Gedolim were mesakin then you have every right to have it addressed – WITH THE GEDOLIM THEMSELVES, not complain or yenta about it on an anonymous blog.August 4, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #1086254
Anon, the sad thing is that the guy probably just hated cats. He used the religion as a convenient excuse. Imagine the nice impression this mayseh made on Bowzer’s children who were called goyim, just because they were feeding kittens, as all children would. This is exactly my point. It is not too hard to figure out why kids are going off the derech. (Of course, I hope that never happens with Bowzer’s children.)
In the real world, it is very easy to tell when you are dealing with an obnoxious neighbor. In the chareidi world, obnoxious behavior is easy to masquerade as frumkeit. I personally can’t tell the difference. Maybe the other’s here who have ruach hakodesh can.August 4, 2008 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1086255anon for thisParticipant
“In the real world, it is very easy to tell when you are dealing with an obnoxious neighbor. In the chareidi world, obnoxious behavior is easy to masquerade as frumkeit. I personally can’t tell the difference. Maybe the other’s here who have ruach hakodesh can.”
I don’t believe that this behavior is typical in the chareidi world. People are more likely to notice these egregious examples because the behavior is so obnoxious. It’s possible that other people reacted neutrally or positively to seeing the children care for the kittens, but that the children didn’t notice this as much. At least, speaking for myself, I would remember being called a “goy” because I’m caring for a kitten more than I’d notice being praised for it.
I also think that a positive upbringing from a parent like Bowzer would be more than sufficient to counteract negative comments from ignorant neighbors with respect to keeping children on the derech. Of course there are some parents who are unable to provide this positive upbringing, or who are treating their own children in this manner, but that is a different issue.
To know the difference between obnoxious behavior & frumkeit, consult a trusted Rav. Even if this knowledge won’t affect the critic, it will be invaluable for yourself & those you love.August 4, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1086257lammed heyMember
The rabbonim should set up shiurim….
At the pizza places in Lakewood….
And people won’t hang….
The wives will feel threatened (due to the Tznius Patrol/crisis)….
They will make their husbands move…..
The husbands will not be able to support in-town living (due to the education crisis)….
They will move out of town (solving the “Brain Drain” crisis)…..
The country will be too far (solving the bungalow crisis)…..
Their children will have an high school english education (solving the education crisis)…..
The wives won’t need to show off to their friends (solving the Tznuis crisis)!!!
And you think the Rabbonim don’t understand/care (C”V) 🙂August 4, 2008 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1086258
Joseph- I don’t know about you, but my Rabbi would not be proud of me spending any time on this web site. The Rabbonim allow use of the internet for parnas. This is not parnasa and none of us really need to be here. Did you ask your Rav if you can spend time and internet time to refute all the apikorsim on this site (no offense pashuta I am just using that language to proove a point I don’t think anyone here is an apikoris)
IF you did let me know who your rabbi is, maybe I want to shop for his psak halacha. (just joking)
Pashuta – I thnk you hit the nail on the head, when you teitched up the problem of chardei youth going off the derech. If we would focus on how great and “ahsranu” to be a yid and to keep shabbos, kashrus and TZNIUS (remember what this blog is about) instead of knocking other yidden and climbing on their backs to show how close we are to Hashem. We would do a lot better, cuz we would be a lot better!
We used to get a lot of anit-zionsim shmoozim. Now I am not a zionist. I live in EY and I love EY, but I don’t go for the medina thing. However, I don’t see the purpose in spending hours bashing zionism, when instead we could have has shmoozim on the greatness of the Chazon Ish, HaRav chaim Ozer etc . . and in the passing mention they did not hold of Zionism, why make fun of other yidden. I heard a kid one time came home from cheder and told his father (who is a big Rav) that his Rebbe said that the mizrachnickim have no yiras shamyim cuz they have holes in their kippah. The father pointed out the Reb Areliach, who are known for their yiras shamyim also wear knitted kippahs. So is a knitted kippah so bad? Baruch Hashem it’s a kippah.
So from cats to kippah people will have differences and unless it’s halachic,I don’t see the reason to get all upset about anything. Let go and let G-d.
to quote a good friend live for the shechina and not for the shechana (neighboor)
May Hashem help us to find more productive things to do than read and write blogs all day. I hope Hashem will help me to get out of this coffe room fast and really adhear to all of the taknos of the rabbonim.August 4, 2008 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1086259
Bowzer – I think many if not most of us here have filtered net access. Additionally, I have seen situations where Rabbonim have authorized (nothing I’m involved with) the posting of content in order to counteract anti-Torah information online.August 4, 2008 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1086260
Bowzer, I agree 100% with that. The RBSH can be my eid that all the time I spend on this blog is to drive home only one msg. That shabbos is kodesh, tznius is kodesh, learning is kodesh, but ahavas yisroel and staying away from onaas devarim and loshon hora is kodesh kadashim. Even a single sharp word should be a yeihareg v’al yaavor. If I have violated my own principles here, then I ask mechila, and it is inexcusable, because I will have reinforced the opposite msg that I wish to bring.
That is why kannaus is treif in our generation. Your description of what ruchniyus is to some people is correct. It is a feeling of what a great zchus it is for me not to be like them, those reshaim. I am lucky to be so much better. (As somebody pointed out, ANA avda dekudsha brich hu.)
This is incorrect and false ruchniyus, based on gayva. The real and highest ruchniyus is to put a smile on somebody’s face. Especially a poor yid who may be suffering and has no place to go, or food to eat, or who needs medical care and can’t afford it. To say, I am fortunate to have a family when I need help, maybe this fellow doesn’t, and has nowhere else to turn except me. Ruchniyus means to give a yasher koach to the garbage man in the morning, and the bus-driver, and the soldier. (As this person pointed out, emphasis should be ana AVDA dkudsha brich hu.)
As I said a few months back, it pains me that there are actually some in the chareidi world who will not stand for Yom Hazikaron, when there may be a wife or mother of a deceased soldier who might see this lack of respect for her sacrifice. Anti-zionism is a disease not because of the political aspect, but because of its inherent roadblock towards true ahavas yisroel for all yidden, frum or frei.
Those who are zocheh to true anavah and ahavas yisroel know a ruchniyus which is incomparable to anything else. You will be zocheh to be mechadesh vortlach off the tip of your tongue. You will need to write them down, as you will come up with so many.
Just one short vort here. Chazal say kol bracha shein bah shem umalchus eina bracha. One must mention that the RBSH is the king of the world, not just his name alone. Why? Does he feel insecure without his official title, and gets angry that he is not getting his due praise. Unlikely. Rather the pshat is that if you say thank-you for the apple, it ignores the tremendous effort that went in to producing it. First there had to be soil. There had to be nutrients in the soil, there had to be water, there had to be sunlight. There had to be a sun. There had to be farmers who grew the apple. There had to be those who transported it, and those who invented trucks, and those who produce gas and those who run the gas stations. They need houses, and clothing and food. There need to be stores to sell the food, and computers to run the billing, and police to maintain order, and an electrical company to power the store. So for your simple apple, you need a whole universe to make it possible. By not mentioning melech haolam, you are simplifying the process and will not have hakaras hatov for all that went into it. You will not thank the farmer and the driver and the storekeeper, and the engineers and builders, etc. That is why it is crucial to grasp the complexity of the entire world and the work of so many whose kochos were ultimately given by the RBSH in his great chesed, who manages the entire universe and supports all of these people, which ultimately enables us to eat the apple.
As it says in Avos: Al t’hi baz lchol adam, v’al t’hi maflig lchol davar, sh’ein lecha adam sh’ein lo shaah, v’ein lcha davar sh’ein lo makom.
Ahavas habrios is kodesh kadashim.August 4, 2008 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1086261Will HillParticipant
The reason the Rabbonim Shlita give anti-zionists shmoozim, is so people should not fall prey to the poisinous candies that zionism seems to be. Without those shmoozim, some people could easily fall prey to zionist tarfus.
I encourage you to place your faith in the Rabbonim. If they give anti-zionists shmoozim, it is for a very useful purpose, whether you understand it or not.August 5, 2008 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1086262
To Joseph- you are avoiding the question. Did you Rav give you permission to get news and surf on “kosher” “filtered” sites for non parnasa reasons? I assume the answer is no. This makes us (me included hypocrites!)
To Will HIll,
These shmoozim are not given by “Rabbonim” they are given by people who are employed by yeshiva/schools to “educate” the youth. I have never heard Rav Elyashiv, Rav Gans or lhavdil Rav Wolbe zt”l give over an anti zionism shmoose, they wouldn’t waste the time of day on it. It’s the gey-chazi’s who are anways looking for a fight who like to bring up these topics. I one time asked a Rav why we have to listen to so manyof these shmoozim, he personally tols me he is against him but Rav x , (much less of a talmis chachom , but much more of a talented speaker) thinks it’s important. I am debating wrting the name of the Rav I asked. I’ll think about it.
To anon: Thank you for the compliment.
Lamed Hey: I don’t know if you wrote this as a joke, but I think there is truth to what you are saying.August 5, 2008 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1086263
I would like to comment on an earlier post you wrote.
You write that chareidim tack on extra layers of culture. I would like to suggest that much of the time, if not always, it is rooted in halacha, or a desire to make gedarim on the halacha. The “culture” does not come from nowhere.
To take having a pet as an example, the reason why in general chareidim don’t have pets is because there are halachic considerations with touching pets on shabbos. as far as I know it is muktza. But I see families who own dogs and cats who disregard that. Plus, other poskim say there may be problems with tzaar baalei chaim. Also putting a bird in a cage is tzod. So, while I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with owning a pet, I’m explaining that the prevalent culture arose over the years because of halachic considerations attached to it. (I have a friend whose daughter was begging to own a dog. The parents asked their Rav and he stronly discouraged owning a dog because a dog is brought as an example of the lowest animal in the gemara. They got another cage pet instead)( Please dont take me apart for this, for as I said many times, i am not a talmid chochom and I cannot give you sources. I am ony repeating what I heard)
Of course, another obvious reason we dont have pets is because we in general have alot more kids than your average goy who has one and a half children, and the time, expense and bother is unwanted.
But even in the gemara there were halachos paskened based on the culture. One example comes to mind, where there was a halacha not to wear a certain color shoelace because that was the style. So the “culture” became not too wear it. If you would have been there you may have said “kol hamosif garua”.
About that sad story of the bandana, as someone on this blog wrote, you seem to look for and find and then use as proof the most outlandish stories. Tell me, do you really believe these stories are typical??? You will have insensitive people in every group. But insensitivity is not a symptom of our olam more than any other group. If anything–it is the opposite!
Wearing black and white is not a halacha nor does it make the wearer a bigger tzaddik. All it does is IDENTIFY them with the yeshiva world, which on the whole is a world more medakdek in Torah and mitzvos. You can be one who wears black and white and be the biggest rasha, and You can be a bigger tzaddik or Talmid chochom in colored shirts. No one will deny that. But just dont knock those who make it a point to wear the yeshiva uniform without understanding what its about. By someone wearing it, they are saying they want people to associate them with the yeshiva world.
The examples you brought about sports is exclusive to the israeli chareidim. There are many obvious reasons that one can suggest why and how this mentality came about, all in an effort to preserve Torah. Among them, bitul Torah and not to follow the chukas Hagoyim. It is my firm belief, having lived in EY myself, that the American can not fully appreciate the Israeli mentality and vice versa. We should not seek to judge them by our standards. But even Israelis do not encourage exercize in and of itself. Playing sports is not the only way to get exercize.
The bottom line is, and I think you will agree with me on this one, that it is incumbent for people to know the difference between halacha, minhag, chumros and “culture” or “tradition”. Then we will know how to set our priorities. As Rav Yisroel Salanter says, if someone wakes up real early to run to daven and in the process wakes others up, or if he fervently swings his talis right into someones eyes, or if he yells at his wife for not covering the challos, he is trading in a de’oreisa (not to hurt others) for a “frumkeit” or minhag. I myself was once criticized by a chassidish person for not adhering to a certain minhag, which that person didn’t realize was only a chassidish, hungarian minhag, but thought that it was halacha. I know someone who was in shul on Shabbos, and realized that since there was a simcha..things took longer than usual, and they tzibur would miss zman krias shma. So he went downstairs to daven beyechidus in order not to miss the zman. Someone saw him and berated him for missing the minyan. He told me after that the man didnt realize that its an obligation to make the zman, whereas though minyan is very very important, the halachah says “one should try” in regards to minyan…But for the most part, It comes from ignorance, not cruelty.
The point at which we differ is that you insist on dismissing what you perceive as misplaced “frumkeit”, because we have “bein adam lechaveiro” issue to worry about, which is much more important. My perspective is that these so-called frumkeiten are often worthy and important, and one has to know how and when to apply them.
Finally, to bring this back to the subject of tznius, Poshut Yid, I think the reason you have such a hard time believing that “Lakewood Ir Hakodesh ” has a tznius problem is because you dont realize that everyone has different standards. Even in the Satmar kehilla (where tznius is on a much higher standard than in Lakewood), has their ztnius shmuezzen when they see a breach. Just recently they addressed certain issues in a kol koreh. For the litvish lakewooder, those would not apply.
In lakewood, there has recently been a breach and that is what the rabbonim are addressing. If YOU see no problem with their Tznius, that just means you have lower standards. The bottom line is that we came down to this world to better ourselves and perfect ourselves. (And that means in all areas, not just ahavas Yisroel)So, even in YOUR community, if you were a Rav and you saw a downward turn in the area of tznius, your obligation would be to point it out.
You may want to ask yourself why you find it necessary to turn every conversation back to the same point: that we need to increase ahavas yisroel and therefor this particular issue is not important. None of us denies the importance of treating others with respect etc. But that is not the subject here.August 5, 2008 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1086264
Mazal tov Lgbg! may you be zoche to build a bayis neeman b’yisroel.
Just one question: Does your fiance know your screen name??August 5, 2008 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1086265
thank you, and why are you asking?August 5, 2008 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1086266lesschumrasParticipant
to Think Big
That is one of the best, most reasoned responses I’ve ever read here.August 5, 2008 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1086267
Bowzer, I understand the takano is that you should not have access except if you need it for parnasa. If you have it, it should be filtered. Once you have filtered access I don’t know of any takanos from accessing general kosher sites. If you are aware of a takano otherwise, please advise me what exactly the takano is and who issued it. Additionally, if we are to assume you are correct, then it would be assur to (for example) send an e-mail to your brother (wishing him mazal tov, or whatever), since it is not for parnasa. Furthermore, your taina then would be with YW and you should contact YW Editor and advise him to kindly shut down this site since its entire targeted audience is prohibited from utilizing it. Am I understanding you correctly?August 5, 2008 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1086268
Your Yeshiva may have the speakers giving frequent anti-zionism shmoozen for the same reason that in America we get many shmoozen how bad secular American culture is.August 6, 2008 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1086269
To bowzer. The brisker Roshei yeshiva (including R Avrom Yeshua) gave/gives shmuessen that included anti-zionistic remarksAugust 6, 2008 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1086270
lgbg: Just curious, but also just teasing. Don’t worry about it.
Less chumras. Thank you. What i expressed here is alot of my general hashkafos in life that ive come to believe over the years rolled into a few paragraphs.:)August 6, 2008 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1086271
Joseph – you know very well that one there is a big difference between e-mail and web sites. email is not part of the takana. I verfied this with Rav Gans shlita. Nobody should take a psak from this thought. 2. All the rabbonim who say not to use the internet only allow it’s use for parnasa and you know that, if a rav gives you a heter to eat a med that has shark cartalige in it are you than allowed to eat shark meat when ever you want? using the internet for work is a heter and you know it- who gave you a heter to use the web for non parnasa sites? At least I admitt that I am doing something wrong. I chanllange you to ask your Rav what he thinks about this web site. I know what my Rav would say. I am a doing something wrong.
My yeshiva gave anit-zionist speaches becasue the man in charge of wasting our has a very low self esteem and needs to build himself up on the backs of others. zionism is not a tayva- american culture (I did go to yeshiva in america also) is a tayva we are fighting every day. there are almost no zionist left anymore. and most of the one who are left live in the US.
Think Big- you made some very inresting and good points. Yaashar Koach!August 6, 2008 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1086272gavra_at_workParticipant
Yasher Koach Think Big!
My rebbe always said that a hat and jacket is the uniform of Hashem’s army, and when you wear the uniform its hard not to play the part.
But also Y”K for noting it is not the end all, and it is not required to be a Torah Yid.
Your post reminds me of being at a chol hamoed pesach outing, and someone (older) telling me that the matza and cream cheese that I was eating was traife (he didn’t eat gebrockts). People are quick to judge.August 6, 2008 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1086273
Think big, that was a very nice post, and I still owe you a reply to an earlier post. Very booked up this week and next, but will get to it IY”H. I appreciate your civility and sticking to the point without the insults and the empty slogans that some use. In general, anything one says should be followed by a hesber, or it is just wasted words, and you take the time to do so.
One quick point, not living in Lakewood, I had no idea of the status there, and was not aware of any recent breach. I just know from a few visits and simchas a while back that they all seem to dress fine according to all halachic opinions. Since these are bnai torah, one would expect that they know the halachos quite well. Nobody here has supplied any of the gory details of what the exact problem or change is. I am not saying tznius is not something to worry about, I am saying that when one is already in the 95th percentile, compared to Anystreet, USA, how much room is there for improvement?August 6, 2008 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1086274Will HillParticipant
You are suggesting that YW is wrong for being on the internet. Why don’t you tell them that? If they disappear, all this wrongfulness we are all engaged in will stop!
And why is a “heter” needed? It isn’t a halcha. And where is it written that email is kosher but yw is not? How is email more kosher than yw? Who made up this rule? The takanos I saw made no such distinction.
One you have a kosher connection, why should it matter what kosher activity you do, be it yw or be it a nice email to some1?August 6, 2008 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1086275
trust me i didnt lose any sleep over it.August 6, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1086276Native IsraeliMember
they say practice what u preach
now if u don’t want to practice it then please don’t preach it–sorta looks sillyAugust 6, 2008 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1086277enlightenedjewMember
Pashuteh Yid makes a good point that makes me feel the need to post something that I’ve thought about for a long time:
“It is too long for now, but the Chareidi world is very frightened about anything that will cause the kids to go off the derech. What they do not realize, is that the hysterical fear itself is what is really causing the kids to go off. It is mamash like living in a witch-hunt. I don’t know how one can take it living in certain neighborhoods. I am willing to bet that the Vaad Hatznius will lead to less tznius on the whole, as kids and families snap under the pressure, and go their own way.”
I’d go so far as to amend the post from “the Chareidi world” to “the Ashkenazi world”.
Ashkenazic culture as a whole seems far, far more paranoid, frightened, and guilty about this than does Sefardic culture. Has anyone noticed (anecdotally, mind you) a lack of severe REBELLIOUS behavior amongst non-religious Sefardim? Their “freier” generally still maintain a strong Jewish identity, and behave far more traditionally (i.e., they will pop into shul, wear tefillin, etc now and then) than freier Ashkenazim. The posionous acrimony one finds between frei or “frei-ish” and frum Ashkenazim does not seem to exist on the same level amongst Sefardim.
Why is this? Why does it seem that Ashkenazi minhagim & practices seem a bit (sometimes more than a bit) more stringent, rigid, and formulaic than their Sefardi counterparts? I believe that historical circumstance plays a large role here, NOT necessarily halacha per se. Ashkenazim went through hideous torture, persecution, and bloodshed for thousands of years at the hands of mainly Christians and Nazi-influenced societies. The natural sociological reaction to such a history could be reactionary conservatism, that is to say an extreme emphasis on religious and cultural preservation; Asheknazi culture , practice, and general approach and outlook to Jewish life became somewhat more rigid, insular, and formulaic as a result. Deviation in the slightest from even non-halachic practice & minhag became thoroughly discouraged and considered as almost a deviation from d’oraisa halachos itself, all to ensure that the Jewish faith continue to hold together under even the most extreme physical persecution and emotional duress.
Sefardim never had such a long history of intense, bloody, and constant persecution as did their Ashkenazic brethren (aside from the Inquisition in the 15th century) because in part they lived mostly under non-Christian rulers whose attempts at persecution and intimidation were only sporadic in nature – is it any accident that the Golden Age of Jewry in Spain occurred under Moorish stewardship of that country? Sefardi culture and approach to living a Torah life took on a different, “looser” flavor as a result.
Some random examples that come to mind:
1. Many Sefardim have a formula for havdala but play with the wording and insert some personal tefilos within the havdala tefila ITSELF – something that would be considered unthinkable for Ashkenazim. Ashkenazim generally frown on free-form prayer within the davning structure.
2. Sefardim are generally more accepting, on the whole, of fellow Jews whose religious observance may or may be more or less strict than their own (I’d venture to say that one doesn’t find shul divisions by Sefardim as one does by Ashkenazim – do people really find “yeshivishe” and “modern” labels on Sefardi shuls?).
3. R’ Yehudah Ha-Levi wrote many beautiful piyutim and tefilos and was an incredible holy person – who also happened to be a philosopher and secular poet. The Rambam was a philosopher who admired Aristotle (but understood Aristotles flaws and limitations vis a vis HKBH).
I could go on and on and on…
Food for thought then – Pashuteh Yid wrote that “hysterical” fear of assimilation and it’s manifestation in “chareidi” (I say possibly “Ashkenazi”) practices can have the OPPOSITE effect – to drive young people to more bitter and vicious resentment towards Judaism. I’d agree, but I’d also argue that that resentment wouldn’t be against Judaism per se, rather, subconsciously, against the specific Asheknazi approach or weltaunschaung WITHIN Yahadus. Is it possible then that the Ashkenazi outlook, approach, and culture, born and developed in the crucible of persecution from Constantine the Great in the 4th century C.E. up until the Holocaust era, has a little less relavance in our world today, where the bloody persecution and hate exist on a FAR more diminished level than they did in years & centuries past? Does an ultra-conservative approach as reaction to then-current circumstances (constant physical and mental persecution) still apply or is effective when those circumstances no longer really exist, to nearly the same extent?
Just food for the brain to chew on. Comments?August 7, 2008 1:29 am at 1:29 am #1086278ujmParticipant
And if you admit you are doing something wrong it becomes okay? (Hey I kill people… but I never deny it! ) Bowzer, please take a step back, close your browser and keep it that way.
I don’t expect to see any response.August 7, 2008 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1086279
Thank you to all of the above who take the time to say kind words.
Gavra, your story is a good example, but I wouldn’t teitch it up like you did, that ppl are too quick to judge. It comes from good old fashioned ignorance. He thought he was doing you a favor by saving you from treif. The answer is to go learn!
Poshuteh Yid: About my earlier post that you still wish to respond to, I am looking forward to reading it. But as i mentioned in the other thread, I will be leaving the scene soon (next week), and I have no (convenient) access to the internet after that.
In regards to the point you made about the tznius in Lakewood, again, I must respectfully disagree with your outlook. you write, “I am not saying tznius is not something to worry about, I am saying that when one is already in the 95th percentile, compared to Anystreet, USA, how much room is there for improvement? “
The frum kehilla in Lakewood is not comparing themselves to Anystreet, USA! They are comparing themselves to how bnos yisroel (and Bnei Yisroel) should look, and perhaps to the standards they held until then, which has fallen. As I said, and I will reiterate: Man came down to this world to perfect themselves. Complacency with our avodas Hashem has no place in yiddishkeit.
Your comment reminds me of the son-in-law in the following well known story:
A rich man who lived out of town wanted a chassan for his daughter. He traveled to the most prestigous yeshiva and picked out a chassan who was a big masmid- He learned 18 hours a day! The couple got married and moved to the home of the rich man, because the father-in-law promised to support.
At first the son-in-law kept up his rigorous scuedule of learning 18 hours aday. Then he started decreasing to 14, then 12, then 10…The father-in law confronted him about it. The son-in-law answered in defense, “what’s the problem? I still learn the most hours a day than anybody else in this town!”
And guess what, Mr. Poshute Yid: It is probably safe to say that compared to Anystreet USA- Klal Yisroel AS A WHOLE is in the 95th percentile in all areas of human existensce. Would you still say “how much room is there for improvement??”August 7, 2008 5:01 am at 5:01 am #1086281
Yasher koach for that, and your other, vertelach.
Also I would like to thank you for dropping by and visiting us during your time off now. I hope that you will bless us with future visits, time permitting.
Hatzlocha Rabba on everything. (Better early, in case we miss each other closer to your departure date.)August 7, 2008 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1086282
it sounds like your really knowledgable with the girls in lakewood.
i love how everyone stereotypes lakewood, as if were all one type.
WAKE UP WE ARE NOT!August 7, 2008 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1086283
I’m sorry that seemed to hit a raw nerve by you, but it seems you simply misunderstood my words to poshut. i said, “The frum kehilla in Lakewood is not comparing themselves to Anystreet, USA! They are comparing themselves to how bnos yisroel (and Bnei Yisroel) should look, and perhaps to the standards they held until then, which has fallen”
I wasnt steriotyping the girls at all. I was talking about the kehilla as a whole (ie. the standards that the Gedolim in Lakewood have for the kehilla.) The point was that the Gedolim realized that there was a general decline in the Tznius in the collective community. (obviously not everyone, that would be rediculous. But enough people to cause them to take action, meaning the asifa)
If your personal Tznius has remained strong or gotten better, kol hakavod to you, and keep it up. But many of your friends or neighbors may feel differently.
For your information, I know nothing at all about the girls in Lakewood, and never intimated that I do. I don’t live there, or anywhere close by.August 7, 2008 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1086284
Joseph, Thank you, I appreciate that.
I definitely enjoyed my visits here, just trying not to think of the immense amount of time I wasted. If I thought anybody took something positive away from all this, it may be partially redeeming. It certainly gave me food for thought. But honestly, I feel in all “yatza sechoro behefsedo”.
I noticed several of the bloggers on this site comment on the guilty concience they have with the time we waste and the fact that this is on the internet. I guess I justified it for myself because I know that this will be left here, and I don’t have this yetzer hara at home. Be it as it may, I hope that some kiddush Hashem can come out of this and that we will all grow from this give and take. (That is the point is it not?) But I would certainly advise those that have misgivings about this to follow the dictates of their concience. As for me, I hope Moshiach will long be here before I take my next vacation and think about logging on. And once that happens, there won’t be any point because there won’t be anything left to argue on, right? TEIKU!
Hatzlacha Rabbah to you too, Joseph, and all of you. (I will still be here a few more days)August 7, 2008 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1086285
no you did not hit a raw nerve.
and i can see you dont live in lakewood.
question the way you write you seem like a psycologist, by any chance you in that field?August 7, 2008 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1086286Native IsraeliMember
This site is definitely addictive. But if u think into it, its great for those ppl that fell into this addiction—better this site than any of the other that can treifen our souls—-better then chatting w/ who knows who and who knows where…
this site is discussing issues in our community that we can all learn about talk about, nothing wrong about in my opinion..i only see good in it
its a healthy outletAugust 8, 2008 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1086287
lgbg: NO NO NO! I’m not a psochologist! But that sure made me laugh out loud, so thank you!August 8, 2008 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1086288
lgbg: How can you “see” i don’t live in Lakewood? In your earlier post you said it sounds like i’m really knowledgable about the girls in lakewood.August 8, 2008 3:29 am at 3:29 am #1086289sinaisentMember
best way to increase tznius is to home school our daughters and dress them in Burkas when they MUST go out. Girls and ultimately Noshim, including married Noshim must be taught they are intrinsically evil and their bodies are objects of shame. Once this message gets accross all women will indeed be too ashamed to allow any part of their bodies to be exposed and they will avoid any public appearances.
But this will raise a hugh problem — how will families get their groceries and their meals cooked and laundry washed. The answer is obvious “separate hours” women will only be allowed out at night and men during the dayAugust 8, 2008 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1086290
your very welcome! as long as i can bring laughter to the world im glad:)
and regarding you and lakewood i was actually being sarcastic. what i mean is everyone thinks lakewood is one type. dont ask me what that type is but thats what out of towners think.im just saying that all you out of towners shouldn’t think lakewood is like one, becuse b”h lakewood has grown and there are various types here and yes the tniyus levels are diiferent to.August 8, 2008 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1086291
I was thinking, the best (truest) way to “know” a person is to know his mind. And i’ve certainly given everyone here a piece of my mind!
What else would you like to know?August 8, 2008 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1086293
Think BIG, I’d love to know a bit of your background (nothing necessarily identifying)!August 8, 2008 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1086295
Joseph, my background is nothing exceptional.
One thing I will tell you is that I am a “she”, not a “he”, as you seemed to assume from another post. I thought it was obvious, but apparently not.August 8, 2008 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1086296
Think BIG, Thanks for that correction. What rough geographic area are you from?
(Interestingly, I find that Jewish women tend to have better English language skills than their compatriot men.)August 8, 2008 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1086297just meParticipant
I do understand the tzniyus crisis in Lakewood. Lakewood is no longer just a yeshiva town. The cheaper property rates have brought in many other poeple who are not “Lakewood types”. These people and their not-yeshivish way of dressing is a crisis to the more yeshivish in the community.
On the other hand, some people take things to the extreme. My mother’s friend went to Lakewood to go to her grandson’s bris. She is a woman in her 60s who dressing atractivly, but not “in your face”. Her sheitel is dark and just brushes her shoulders. One guest, a young woman, at the bris came over, gave mazal tov and then said that as a bubby, it would be more tzniyusdic and proper for her to wear a shorter shaitel. I guess manners arenot tought together with halacha.
Also, you might be interested to know that many people have different feelings about what is tzniyus. My daughter went to sem in Gateshead. The girls all went to that video about tzniyus where many rebatzins from around the world spoke. The next day, one of my daughter’s teachers had a few words about it. This rabbi is a world renown person. I wouldn’t mention his name here. He said that it was an important presentaton but IT WAS A SHAME IT WAS SPOILED by the American women who spoke. He felt their shaitels werent tzniyusdic enough.
Tzniyus seems to be relative to where you are.August 8, 2008 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1086298
I am originally from the greater new york area, though I don’t live there anymore. May i ask why it interests you? Where are you from.
(Actually, i’ve read that in the area of language, woman are stronger than men in the general population, not just in the Jewish one. Men are stronger in math and the sciences)August 8, 2008 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1086299
Curiousity, I suppose. I’ve found your posts very intelligent, erudite, and of greatest importance absolutely correct. I appreciate your expressing yourself as thus. Such commodities are indeed rare, especially in forums such as this.August 8, 2008 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1086300
I too am from the NY Metro area. I take it you went thru the “typical” (litvish) Bais Yaakov system.August 11, 2008 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1086301
Thank you Joseph. What can I say? i am flattered, though I would not say that my positions are “absolutely correct.” Much of what I write is my own personal perspective/opinion. But thanks just the same.
You say such commodities are rare…I am not familiar being that this is the first “forum such as this” that I have ever participated, but I did find that there are several intelligent posters on this site, that gave me much food for thought.
Yes, I went through the “typical Bais Yaakov system”, more or less. However, the home I was raised in is quite different (in subtle ways–nothing overt) than the one I have now in terms of emphasis and hashkafas hachaim. So, in a sense, I was exposed to different ways of thinking. Additionally, I have always had a thirst to read and understand others points of views.
You speak about English language skills. I have observed that you write in a manner not typical of a yeshiva graduate, in both vocabulary and scope. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? (age, occupation, background etc.)August 11, 2008 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1086302
Think BIG, You ought to be thankful that you haven’t been exposed to other forums. This is relatively benign, an uncommon characteristic compared to the shtus out there (including the purportedly “Jewish” ones.)
Believe it or not, I too come from a typical background. And I too have always had a quest for knowledge. I would venture to say that most of my (certainly secular) knowledge, including advanced language, I’ve acquired on my own i.e. via reading.August 11, 2008 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1086303tzippiMember
Women may be more erudite, etc. It’s also possible that we were taught to type so type faster and better (not that we don’t make the occasional typos, etc.).August 12, 2008 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1086304
JOSEPH: oK, if you say i should be grateful that i haven’t been exposed, I am, but I’m even more grateful that my husband and i made the decision not to have a computer, as besides for all else, it is very addictive. it is fascinating to me that with a few clicks one can be connected to people all over the world.
So, what else can I say? I live “out of town”, I am married to a choshuv yungerman with several little childern, b”h. I teach part time and spend the rest of my time doing what everybody else does, I guess. That’s all I’m willing to say for now on this public forum…hope that satisfies your curiosity!
Tzippi: believe it or not, I cannot even type! I am of the “two-finger” typers…(though I did learn in school, I never had practice!)August 14, 2008 3:37 am at 3:37 am #1086305
Before i sign off for the night (and this is my last night here), perhaps you can satisfy my curiosity. It is interesting to me how cut and dry you are in regards to many issues, especially the tznius/tochacha issue. Though we agreed on many other topics, on this one we were a bit at loggerheads despite the fact that we are both professing to talk in the name of tznius.
Do you mind telling me why this issue is such a burning one for you (or so it seems) ? (For me it is obvious, as I work with these issues on a daily basis as part of my job…)
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