Hydroxychloroquine

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  • #1847308
    Doing my best
    Participant

    Does anyone understand why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine even though it is working throughout the country (lenox hill, KJ, etc.) and has almost no risk (no heart attacks have been reported even though many doses have been given)?

    #1847365
    ready now
    Participant

    From “COVID-19: More Great News” below the video is from Dr. Eric Berg DC:
    “Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate. He used hydroxychloroquine, z-pack, and zinc. He’s recommending to hit the virus hard and early with this protocol.”

    This information is filtering out and we hope it is being used.
    The doctors who know want to use it, surely!?

    #1847378
    Health
    Participant

    DMB – You make an assumption & then you ask a question on that assumption!?!

    #1847392

    IN NYS the governor has issued an executive order that it only be dispensed in a hospital or inpatent setting to treat Covid-19 as the FDA had not approved it as a treatment for Covid-19.

    #1847398
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Yes

    “even though it is working throughout the country ”

    I haven’t found it to be working. That said I see the sickest of patients so I have a biased sample. the doctor in KJ is seeing the healthiest of patients (he is outpatient) so he too has a biased sample.

    there are currently > 300,000 postive cases of Coronavirus in the US. There isnt enough HCQ for all of them. not to mention I took take care of pt with Lupus where we know it does help.

    That said for a sick pateitn the benefit (possible survivial) outweighs the risk so might as well give it. For healthy patients, the vast majority, the benefit doesnt outweigh the risk. For more moderate patients is questionable, I’d err on the side of giving.

    #1847418
    ready now
    Participant

    Fauci does not want to.

    #1847431
    ready now
    Participant

    Ubiq:”I haven’t found it to be working.
    That said for a sick patient the benefit (possible survival) outweighs the risk so might as well give it.”

    Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?

    #1847429
    akuperma
    Participant

    Trump endorsed it, making it politically incorrect to prescribe it, and in blue state, political correctness matters. If Trump had denounced it, it would be mandatory to give it to any New York who tests positive even without serious symptoms.

    #1847442
    ready now
    Participant

    Possibly the hydroxychloroquine with the z pack and the zinc will work on the very sick patients too- we need the stats, the data.
    Remember sightly or moderately sick people, some have been getting even sicker, has v sholom!

    #1847436
    ready now
    Participant

    If 100% of people with covid 19 are recovering with the hydroxychloroquine then no one is progressing to the5% mortality phase, so it is a success!

    #1847445
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”

    Yep used it with everything can think of – (to be clear I’m usually not the one ordering it )

    but again, I see the sickest patients (I’m a nephrologist I get called when multiple organs ie kidneys are shutting down) . so that has zero bearing on healthier patients. thats why we need studies

    #1847455
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Ubequitin, of course we need studies. But,as President Trump responded to yet another asinine CNN question, the sickest patients don’t have the luxury of time. He said Hydro is not a wonder drug but the early test results are promising and if a patient is dying,what is the risk in prescribing the drug? Unlike a vaccine which he said requires extensive testing before use so that you’re not killing healthy people, Hydro has decades of use demonstrating it is not a lethal drug.

    #1847452
    ready now
    Participant

    ubiq: “thats why we need studies”
    The study is in progress, see above, and here below where we have the following:

    From “COVID-19: More Great News” below the video is from Dr. Eric Berg DC:
    “Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate. He used hydroxychloroquine, z-pack, and zinc. He’s recommending to hit the virus hard and EARLY with this protocol.”

    He’s recommending Early!100% success rate!
    Who would wait around till later?

    #1847483
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ““Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate.”

    that isnt a study. He is an outpatient physcian. He (by definition) sees the walking well. A “study” that tells us 100% of coronoavrius patients who arent sick don’t get intubated doesnt tell us much of anything if at all.

    similarly say I saw 699 patients all of whom took HCQ + zinc + z pack and most have unfortunatly passed . would that be a reason NOT to take it ?
    of course not. those patients were much sicker

    Put another way what would have happened to those patients if they didnt take his regimen? Keep in mind the vast vast majority of those infected do just fine (which is part of the problem ironically ) who is to say that they (like most patients) wouldn’t have done just as well?

    anonymous
    “promising and if a patient is dying,what is the risk in prescribing the drug?”

    As Iv e said, The patients that IVe seen are apretty much all on HCQ. As I said in my first post “That said for a sick patient the benefit (possible survivial) outweighs the risk so might as well give it.”

    #1847498
    Health
    Participant

    lowerourtuition11210 -“IN NYS the governor has issued an executive order that it only be dispensed in a hospital or inpatent setting to treat Covid-19 as the FDA had not approved it as a treatment for Covid-19.”

    He should be impeached! At least make sure to vote him out of office for all the deaths that could be prevented.

    #1847493
    Naftush-2
    Participant

    Why put it through rigorous scientific testing first? See under: Thalidomide.

    #1847489
    bk613
    Participant

    Does it strike anyone as a little strange that he claims to have 100% success rate? I am unaware of any other medication in the history of modern medicine that worked 100% of the time.
    As Ubiquitin pointed out Dr Zelenko’s has an outpatient clinic. The overwhelming majority of people who get sick with COVID-19 never need to go to the hospital and get better on their own after a few days/weeks. The fact that none of his patients got really sick (assuming you believe his numbers) still doesn’t prove that Hydroxychloroquine is a miracle drug.

    #1847512
    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“similarly say I saw 699 patients all of whom took HCQ + zinc + z pack and most have unfortunatly passed .”

    First of all, I have a possible tx. for very sick pts., but I’m still trying to get a pharm. corp. involved.
    2nd, I recommend HCQ + zinc, not Azithromycin.
    It should be given early on. If given early enough, just take Zinc.

    #1847592
    Doing my best
    Participant

    Dr. Zelenko has seen 911 patients as of yesterday. Assuming at least 550 of them actually had Coronavirus, there normally should have been at least 50 hospitalizations from people who got worse over the past week. That didn’t happen. If that’s not proof then nothing is. Hydroxychloroquine keeps people out of hospitals.

    #1847600
    Joseph
    Participant

    bk613: Dr. Z has a very small sample size; so it is very plausible for him to have a 100% success rate.

    #1847734
    charliehall
    Participant

    Hydroxychloroquine was brought to the attention of Trump by a French fraudster who published a totally flawed study in a journal controlled by someone who works for him after a one day peer review. The flaws were so pronounced that any of my first year medical students would have found them. Hydroxychloroquine has known serious side effects, including blindness. Used with azithromycin it can cause your heart to stop. A small but properly designed study in China found no effect of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19.

    Basically there is no evidence that it works and it is known to be potentially dangerous. Any doctor who wants to use it needs to become a clinical trial site so that we can properly determine whether it works or not — there are a lot of such trials underway. Meanwhile, the patients who REALLY need this drug — patients with lupus or rheumatoid arthritis — can’t get it. Oh, and the sickest patients can’t take hydroxychloroquine because it is only available as an oral medication. Thus it is to be expected that patients who take it have better outcomes — they aren’t as sick when they start!

    Trump is completely irresponsible in promoting a potentially dangerous and untested drug combination. His flunkie Peter Navarro does not understand how to read and critique a clinical research study. Rudy Giuliani has in the past made a sufficiently ignorant statement about healthcare that I use it to teach medical students about how one can misunderstand certain types of bias in observational data and his promotion of these unapproved drugs sadly gives me more material.

    There are far more promising treatments being tested now.

    #1847674
    smarterthanallofyou
    Participant

    “Assuming at least 550 of them actually had Coronavirus, there normally should have been at least 50 hospitalizations”

    Thisis incorrect.

    If you take a RANDOM SAMPLE you’d expect x number of hospitalizations. but if I select 550 patients with mild (or no) symptoms I wouldnt expect many (or even any) hospitlizations

    #1847713
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    The side effects of hydroxychloroquine are rather dangers for many people. When I was first diagnosed with Lupus my Dr and I discussed the med and I reviewed quite a bit of literature about the med and it’s side effects. For me the decision was easy, I just said no. Diabetics who are on medication can suffer life threatening drops in blood sugar.

    Personally I feel there should be more research on this medication. Real studies with control groups. Are these studies possible under pandemic conditions? I don’t really think so. As pointed out above thread we’ve seen what can happen with quickly approved off label use of a medication. The consequences can be tragic.

    #1847748
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    sorry
    i’m not sure why it logged in under that silly screenname (I barely remember making it)

    I wrote the following:

    “Assuming at least 550 of them actually had Coronavirus, there normally should have been at least 50 hospitalizations”

    This is incorrect.

    If you take a RANDOM SAMPLE you’d expect x number of hospitalizations. but if I select 550 patients with mild (or no) symptoms I wouldnt expect many (or even any) hospitlizations

    #1847733
    y2r
    Participant

    To the Doctor above with all due respect you are making a terrible argument and may be responsible for more people DYING. Sorry for the harsh words, but it needs to be said.

    Doctors are encouraging patients to do nothing, and then they end up in the hospital where no one can be on top of the doctors and high percentage of people never make out alive….

    I personally have seen 7 patients all of whom were getting worse by the day and all of them tested positive for COVID-19 and all but one developed pneumonia… Unfortunately their misguided DOCTORS did not want to give them Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin and Zinc, they kept telling them “just rest, drink plenty….” meanwhile all we’re getting worse. 3 needed up in the hospital including 2 in the ICU and one on a respirator.
    When they got to the hospital they were given Hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin BUT unfortunately for 1 of them After 3 days in the hospital he ended up an a respirator, miraculously he recovered after 3 days on a respirator (the Doctor practically gave up), round the clock Tillim did the trick.

    The other 4, we got them to Dr. Zelenko and other GOOD doctors who prescribe the medications and they started getting better .

    One can always argue that it’s no proof, perhaps they would have (miraculously) gotten better anyhow.. Stupidest argument, because you can say it by any patient who gets better after taking medication (perhaps he would have gotten better)

    It’s PURE EVIL not to treat ALL patientS with COVID-19 who are showing great weakness, especially if they develop pneumonia!!!!!

    HONEST Doctors will look back and ask themselves why were we so STUPID and IGNORANT, When patient begged for Hydroxychloroquine???? The risks of getting harmed when taking it 5 days are close to ZERO! compare that the HIGH RISK of letting COVID-19 progress ….

    Some DOCTORS are JUST STONE COLD

    AND THE DEMOCRAT POLITICIANS ARE juSt plain EVIL!!!

    #1847746
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Two things:

    1. Dr. Zelenko tested on hundreds of patients with coronaviruslike symptoms. When he was stating those numbers, there were less than a few hundred positive cases in the whole US. He simply tried it out on everyone with flu-like or respiratory issues.
    2. France and China did small studies on it and found that it was no more effective than a placebo
    #1847780
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yseribus: As was later learned retrospectively (as much of COVID-19 is, since it isn’t well understood yet even by the best doctors and new medical information about the desease is learned daily), the vast majority of those with COVID symptoms indeed have the desease not are undiagnosed of it, due to a great shortage of test kits. Indeed, the official count of people with COVID vastly undercounts the real number, which is multiples of the official count.

    #1847777
    Health
    Participant

    Charlie -“Trump is completely irresponsible in promoting a potentially dangerous and untested drug combination. ”
    You sound just like the NY Governor!
    But Now is Not the time to play politics!
    Lives will be lost!
    I’m not saying 100% that HCQ will work, but anybody with symptoms should be able to get it! Not like in NY.
    BTW, you claim to be a Medical Researcher?!?
    Research this article from Medscape:
    “COVID-19: Could Hydroxychloroquine Really Be An Answer?”

    Edited

    #1847792
    Mammele
    Participant

    Yseribus: I believe Dr. Zelenko tested those patients for the flu before treating.

    We all know the heimishe communities have been hit hard, with many with somewhat unrecognized symptoms like losing their sense of smell. Negating his diagnosis because of lack of available tests is foolhardy.

    He’s mainly only treating those that have at least one risk factor, or have difficulty breathing. And he’s NOT CLAIMING IT AS A CURE FOR ADVANCED CASES. His idea is to treat those at risk before their lungs become compromised, when the chances of reversal are much greater. Ironically, the experts here state that these patients would have recovered naturally. So why is the percentage of deaths so high in relatively healthy individuals, or those above 50?

    And most risks associated with this medication are with LONG TERM USE not for those taking it for 5 or 10 days. Of course doctors have to do their due diligence before prescribing, as some patients are not ideal candidates. But knowing how dangerous COVID 19 is, we must weigh the potential benefit against the potential risk.

    #1847809
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” Sorry for the harsh words, but it needs to be said.”

    Absolutely no apology necessary. you have no clue what you are talking about, and your post is riddled with emotion devoid of fact or logic. I understand completly where yo uare coming from.

    “Stupidest argument, because you can say it by any patient who gets better after taking medication (perhaps he would have gotten better)”

    Yes of course we could and we do!. thats why we do studies
    Are Ace inhibitors good for Hyperteinsives with proteinuria? Studies how they are. What about Arbs,? studies show they are. LEts combine them for a super medication seems like a no brainer? Wrong! studies show combining them leads to more harm.

    Does HCQ help Pts with Covid19? Maybe some anecdotal reports say yes other say no. Lets study it. Whats the harm in giving it? So for some youre right there is no harm as IVe said several times ) for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.

    Maybe schmear butter on their heads, it cant hurt. My neighbor did it to all 9 of hr children and they are al fearing fine. Anybody who doesnt schmear butter on their heads is evil. Negating her treatment because of lack of available tests is foolhardy. sorry but it had to be said

    #1847810
    2scents
    Participant

    Most of the pros and cons of Hydroxychloroquine have already been discussed here, I will share my point of view. (for whatever that is worth).

    a. Unfortunately, this has become political, when dealing with science or life and death politics should not play any role.

    b. Everyone agrees that the data is not sufficient to support Hydroxychloroquine as an evidence-based treatment. (the reason why it is being used especially for in-hospital patients, is because of the known track record this medication has, and the rules slightly change when dealing with a pandemic).

    c. The initial French study was very flawed, but the follow-up study showed remarkable improvements with most of the patients that were on Hydroxychloroquine, with a significantly reduced infection period.

    d. The logic behind Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc is not that it reverses the infection, rather that it makes it more difficult for the virus to replicate and reproduce, giving the body a better chance at fighting the virus.

    e. This is why if one were to go with Hydroxychloroquine as a treatment option, it makes sense to start it early on, not later on as none of the meds reverse anything.

    f. Like everything in life, especially with medicine, there are potential side effects, some common and some not so common. Many medications have a potential side effect of prolonged the QTC, so if a patient already has this conduction abnormality, there is risk for them developing a potentially deadly arrhythmia. This can be quickly ruled out by obtaining an EKG. Yet some providers are prescribing Hydroxychloroquine without getting an EKG, especially if the patient has no known cardiac history.

    g. All the sick should have a refuah shleima!

    #1847811
    2scents
    Participant

    ubiq,

    Now that you have revealed that you are a nephrologist, can you briefly explain why some patients that are sick with the coronavirus develop rhabdomyolysis?

    Thanks

    #1847812
    ready now
    Participant

    Ubiq: “Keep in mind the vast vast majority of those infected do just fine ”

    The point is, that the fatalities come from the “majority” and emerge as minority mortality.
    So the Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate.

    You can be sure he was treating people with some symptoms.

    You cannot expect to cure asymptomless people nor do a study on them.

    #1847814
    highpeaks
    Participant

    Thousands of people are dying each day and some doctors are concerned about rate side effects they can be monitored? It’s just so wrong. Any patient who is high risk (above 60 or health issues) with mild symptoms or any age with shortness of breath and is Currently reading this should either get it prescribed by their doctor or find a doctor and state that will. It’s Pikuach Nefesh. If one has no choice than take Quercetin and Zinc as Quercetin is a zinc ionophore and possibly work in the same way as Hydroxychloriquine, only that there hasn’t much anecdotal evidence yet with regard to coronavirus. However those two supplements are safe to take and can be purchased online or at a vitamin store.

    #1847843
    mattisyahu
    Participant

    Curious does anyone know Dr. Zelenko’s screening procedure? How do we know there is no bias in his screening as to who to take on as a patient? That can make a huge difference. Did he turn away patients? If yes, why and who.

    Dr. Zelenko said he had over 900 patients. Anyone know the number of them that actually had a confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis, not just a guess based on clinical presentation?

    He said he treated with his cocktail over 300 patients who he classified as high risk. What exactly does he classify as high risk, did any of these high-risk patients have a positive test, how long did they have this, what type of symptoms did they have?

    How fast does COVD-19 progress from the point when he would prescribe his cocktail till when they need to go to the ICU?

    There are lots of questions and without careful controls, even the most well-meaning, can make mistakes.

    I have not seen anyone recommend against taking this for people with breathing symptoms and if it helps, it is great. But this is unproven, despite Dr. Zelenko’s videos about this.

    As to why the Governor limited prescribing this to some extent is because there will be a shortage affecting people who these drugs are proven to work on. Apparently, there can’t be such a major restrictions on prescribing this as Dr. Zelenko has managed to prescribe this to 300+ patients.

    #1847851
    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.”

    That’s why you’re a kidney doc and don’t know critical care.
    See my post to Charlie from Medscape.

    #1847856
    Doing my best
    Participant

    I can’t understand why people are worried about theoretical side effects. Thousand have already taken Hydroxychloroquine for Corona and none of them had a heart attack. If any one of them did we would have heard all about it from the left wing media and those doctors who for some reason don’t like it.

    #1847876
    Mammele
    Participant

    Yes, it especially gets my goat when same left wing media makes sure to mention that someone got poisoned by ingesting a fish tank cleaning chemical in lieu of hydroxychloroquine. That was definitely Trump’s fault for highlighting the drug. Silly Americans must be kept in the dark lest they poison themselves…

    And lest you think I’m a Trump Kool-aid drinker, how Trump handled this crisis a month ago and his pie in the sky attitude then REALLY roiled me up. Now I choose not to listen, but I believe he sort of learned from his mistakes, at a very high cost.

    #1847883
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Has anyone been able to verify if Zalenko tested those patients for Covid 19? Someone said he tested his patients for the flu, which flu?

    #1847902
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    How many of you have any medical background, I mean a real verifiable background, ie Dr. Nurse, a degree in biology, safety etc. This all helps pass the time of day but for 95% you are clueless besides what you read on the internet.

    #1847900
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Thousand have already taken Hydroxychloroquine for Corona and none of them had a heart attack. ”

    The risk of HCQ isn’t a heart attack. A major risk is cardiac arythmias, an irregular heart ryhm that can be fatal. Many many covid 19 have this. Is this related to HCQ? Probably not ? To their underlying disease process? More likely but without data who knows.
    Further more keep in mind HCQ is an immmunosupressent (that’s why it’s used for autoimmune diseases like lupus and RA) it is possible that it makes things worse.

    “That’s why you’re a kidney doc and don’t know critical care.”

    My medical education included ust as much about covid19 as the most advanced critical care program as the most advanced institution. Sure in secret graduade school where they teach secret supreme court cases they may have taghut it but not in most schools

    #1847901
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I replied last night, I’m not sure why it didnt go through

    2scents
    yasher koach for your points

    “Now that you have revealed that you are a nephrologist, can you briefly explain why some patients that are sick with the coronavirus develop rhabdomyolysis?”
    I think its like any viral ilness which rhabdo is a known potential sequale . furthermore they seem to be in a hypercatabolic state. I can dialyse patients daily and their potassiums are still through the roof .

    Health
    “for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.””

    I meant in the aggregate. Say you give it to 1000 people who were healthy and were going to do well anyway. One of them gets a prolonged QT leading to torsades and dies. That is more harm than benefit you killed one person to save nobody.

    #1847919
    ready now
    Participant

    Ubiq:”Say you give it to 1000 people who were healthy and were going to do well anyway.”

    No, the Dr gave the med to people who were showing symptoms.

    #1847932
    A little Sechel?
    Participant

    it is unbelievable to look at so many responses by supposedly intelligent professionals and everyone misses the whole point. Just check with hatzala KJ which I did and you will find out that out of a population approximately half the size of Lakewood hatzLa only transported about 20 people to emergency Rooms as compared to Lakewood which did 250. as soon as somebody calls them they sent them to get two prescriptions and most people do not have to be transported can anyone argue with these simple facts

    #1847923
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “No, the Dr gave the med to people who were showing symptoms.”

    Yes, the vast vast majority of people with symptoms do well without HCQ.

    Again, I’m not saying not to give it in all cases. but his “data” proves exactly nothing.

    #1847948
    charliehall
    Participant

    “you claim to be a Medical Researcher?!?”

    Yes, I am. I am a Professor of Epidemiology and Population Health with a PhD in Biostatistics. I regularly review grant applications for the National Institutes of Health. I serve on my institution’s Institutional Review Board for the protection of the well-being of participants in research studies. I serve on multiple Data Safety Monitoring Committees to protect the well-being of participants in clinical trials. I have over 170 scientific publications and have been Principal Investigator on multiple research projects. I regularly review scientific manuscripts for methodological soundness. I know what I am talking about. Trump, Giuliani, and Navarro don’t. The first year medical students I teach know more about this than they do.

    Okay, I have given you my credentials. What are yours? How many scientific publications do you have?

    Any my own expertise is dwarfed by that of Dr. Fauci. My understanding if infectious disease is to his like an good shul rabbi’s Torah knowledge is to that of Rabbi Hershel Schachter.

    Do you publicly contradict your own shul’s rabbi when he paskens halachah? Or the gedol that your own rav follows? That is the level of arrogance here. We are supposed to be removing the chametz not just from our homes but from our attitudes.

    Maybe hydroxychloroquine will have some effect on the coronavirus. The way to learn that is in clinical trials that are underway. Go sign up for one for which you qualify! Clinicaltrials dot gov.

    #1847959
    Mammele
    Participant

    Amil:

    He tested the patients with flu like symptoms with this year’s flu test to RULE OUT THE FLU. He did do COVID tests in the beginning, and a majority came back positive. Since tests are in short supply, I believe he now mainly diagnoses based on symptoms.

    Remember, KJ was considered such a hot-spot by the negative media, that nearby town officials tried pressuring Cuomo to do a full lock-down there so that the virus doesn’t spread to their towns. (However, he also treats patients from other neighborhoods.) Sure there was some anti-Semitism behind it, but it’s undeniable that our Heimishe communities have been hit hard.

    Ultimately it boils down to Dr. Zelenko’s credibility as a doctor. Although I can’t vouch for him personally (and he did make some off the bat comments in the beginning) he seems to have a solid reputation in 16 years of practice. And he sounds knowledgeable.

    It’s worth noting that Dr. Zelenko is self-isolating due to his medical condition. This may mean he had more time for research, but also that he relies on his staff for hands-on work.

    #1847970
    mattisyahu
    Participant

    Regarding number of people transported to ER’s…

    Info from Wikipedia:

    Population KJ – 25,292
    Median Age KJ – 15 years old
    1.6% are 65 or older

    Population Lakewood – 104,000
    Median Age Lakewood – 23.9 years old
    12.2% are 65 or older

    Do some math…

    KJ about 322 people 65 or older

    Lakewood about 12,688 people 65 or older

    In other words lakewood has close to 40X the number of people who are 65 or older.

    Someone said 20 people from KJ went to the ER vs 250 people from Lakewood, well that is 12.5X the amount, when we would perhaps expect 40X the amount.

    Basically, the populations are so different that comparing them is much more difficult than cherry-picking one number.

    Also, given that people in KJ are young overall and the chances of them dying from COVID-19 are much less I have no idea what you can extrapolate from that population with regard to Zelenko’s work with them.

    #1848017
    2scents
    Participant

    This is a terrible disease, there is so much that is not known and so much that is simply not adding up, the severe hypoxia that does not correlate with the clinical presentation the cardiac arrhythmias and much more. This is a horrible disease that is hurting a lot of people.

    #1848020
    2scents
    Participant

    Regardless of the KJ doctors statements, he was referring to his patients, not to all the patients in KJ, we also don’t know if the numbers he stated are accurate as of today.

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