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Ubiq – ”I dont care if what I say is true.”
Everything I post, IMHO, I try to the best of my knowledge is accurate!
OTOH, How many years did you post that my Court Case was never reviewed by SCOTUS?!?OH Charlie, -“You have just proven that you don’t know how to read a scientific journal article. The article in question proved nothing of the kind.”
It’s a shame that you don’t recognize SARCASM When you see it!
“Well thank you for proving that it’s better to GIVE IT EARLY”
The only thing you can observe from that observational study is that Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients that were more severely ill, DIDN’T Do better than Non-treated pts. of HCQ.Health
“Everything I post, IMHO, I try to the best of my knowledge is accurate!”so to keep that perception don’t ask “Now why do I have to back up my claim?” If you make a claim back it up.
Again, you don’t have to. but it doesn’t make you sound like your posts are accurate if when asked to back it up you get angry and defensive“How many years did you post that my Court Case was never reviewed by SCOTUS?!?”
See aboveUbiq -“In fact I have prescribed HCQ yes with zinc”
What was the outcome, if you know?
What was the way they got O2 – mask, intubation or other?
Was it given on or near the onset of the virus, or later on?
Was it given with Z-pack or not? (Don’t forget I’m against Tx. with Z-pack.)
What was the dosage of each medication & length of time of the administration?
If the pts. were in shock, was 2 steriods given also?“What was the outcome, if you know?”
It wasnt a lot of patients. 1 I stopped because it QTc rose a lot. the rest did the same as the patients who didnt get it.
“What was the way they got O2 – mask, intubation or other?”
The few I prescribed were all outpatients none got oxygen“Was it given on or near the onset of the virus, or later on?
probably onset they had mild sx (fever/cough) tested positive so I started it“Was it given with Z-pack or not? ”
noThat said almost all the hospitalized pts I have seen got it. Few did well. But I see a biased sample, as Ive said from the onset I wouldn’t extrapolate from my cohort to others.
Ubiq -” I stopped because it QTc rose a lot.”
I personally wouldn’t stop it, just have them monitored. It doesn’t have to be in a hospital, some nursing homes can do it.
“the rest did the same as the patients who didnt get it.”
I want to know – “What was the dosage of each medication & length of time of the administration?” Zinc – Was it given PO, IV? Also, what type of Zinc – Eg. Zinc Gluconate, Etc.?
“The only thing you can observe from that observational study is that Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients that were more severely ill, DIDN’T Do better than Non-treated pts. of HCQ.”
That isn’t what the study showed and by making the comment you show that you did not understand the methods used in the study. It showed that Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients who were in the SAME condition as the untreated patients did not do better. They used three different methods to make the treatment groups equivalent and got the same result all three ways.
OH CHARLIE, -“It showed that Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients who were in the SAME condition as the untreated patients did not do better.”
If you can’t understand Sarcasm, how could you understand Yeshivishe language?
“DIDN’T Do better than Non-treated pts. of HCQ.”
Obviously they are both in the SAME category!No matter how many times you submit it, it ain’t going through – 29
In plain English, the New York study results published today in JAMA showed that patients treated with Hydroxychloroquine shows no material benefits in responding to the coronavirus versus those not given the medication. Also, there was no noticeable advantage for patients that took the drug paired with azithromycin. While this was NOT a randomized study, it certainly raises doubts about all the hyping by the Trumpkopf, Fox News experts and right wing blogs. The results of a fully accredited randomized study will be released soon and perhaps it will show some benefits but until then, this is the best available information. If you want to continue your tin foil conspiracy theories, there are several excellent websites that would value your inputs.
GH -“In plain English, the New York study results published today in JAMA showed that patients treated with Hydroxychloroquine shows no material benefits in responding to the coronavirus versus those not given the medication. Also, there was no noticeable advantage for patients that took the drug paired with azithromycin. While this was NOT a randomized study, it certainly raises doubts about all the hyping by the Trumpkopf, Fox News experts and right wing blogs. If you want to continue your tin foil conspiracy theories, there are several excellent websites that would value your inputs.”
Are you talking about this Study?
“Conclusions and Relevance Among patients hospitalized in metropolitan New York with COVID-19, treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, or both, compared with neither treatment, was not significantly associated with differences in in-hospital mortality. However, the interpretation of these findings may be limited by the observational design.”Stop with your HATRED on Trump to Prove Science.
This observational Study is not unexpected.
They need a study that the pts. get Zinc & HCQ or none – just supportive treatment!Health just noticed your reply.
“I personally wouldn’t stop it, just have them monitored. It doesn’t have to be in a hospital, some nursing homes can do it.”shkoyach
“I want to know – “What was the dosage of each medication & length of time of the administration?” Zinc – Was it given PO, IV? Also, what type of Zinc – Eg. Zinc Gluconate, Etc.?
400 mg daily HCQ x 7 days (I did not give a loading dose). 100 mg Zinc acetate PO. These were outpts .I saw the Jama study . No surprise, reports what IVe seen first hand (though no mention of Zinc , which (almost?) all the inpatients IVe seen were prescribed
Though worth noting there is a report coming out of NYU titled “Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study” which looks at HCQ + Zinc and at least initally reports some + findings.
Ubiq -“Though worth noting there is a report coming out of NYU titled “Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study” which looks at HCQ + Zinc and at least initally reports some + findings.”
Are you talking about this Study?
“Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study
By Alyssa Paolicelli New York City
NEW YORK – Researchers at NYU’s Grossman School of Medicine found patients given the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine along with zinc sulphate and the antibiotic azithromycin were 44 percent less likely to die from the coronavirus.
“Certainly we have very limited options as far as what we have seen work for this infection so anything that may work is very exciting,” said Dr. Joseph Rahimian, Infectious Disease Specialist at NYU Langone Health.
The study looked at the records of 932 COVID-19 patients treated at local hospitals with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin.
More than 400 of them were also given 100 milligrams of zinc daily.
Researchers said the patients given zinc were one and a half times more likely to recover, decreasing their need for intensive care.
Why Hospitals in NYC Have Abandoned Hydroxychloroquine
One theory is that hydroxychloroquine may aid a cell’s ability to absorb the zinc which has antiviral properties and responds to the infection.
“It sort of boosts the zinc activity which is one of the reasons we thought to look at zinc here and in this observational study we did see a difference suggesting that maybe that boosting activity of the hydroxychloroquine with the zinc helps the zinc to work better and lead to a benefit,” Rahimian said.”Ubiq -“100 mg Zinc acetate PO. These were outpts .
I saw the Jama study . No surprise, reports what IVe seen first hand (though no mention of Zinc , which (almost?) all the inpatients IVe seen were prescribed”SORRY – Not enough Zinc!
You need at least 200mg/day PO for Covid19.I found this Online:
“Science Translational Medicine”
“In the pipeline”
by Derek LoweCommenter on STM:
Patrick Jewell says:
“The fool who wrote this comment (FYI – not posted) is clueless to the fact that Hydroxychloroquine is NOT in any way, shape, or form an antiviral medication.
Hydroxychloroquine is a zinc ionophore.
It is literally a synthetic “doorway” (transporter) that allows extracellular zinc to pass into the cytoplasm, so the ZINC can destroy the virus. THE ONLY SCIENCE HERE, IS THAT ZINC IS THE ANTIVIRAL. Your cell membrane has naturally occurring membrane transporter proteins specifically for zinc, called zip proteins. A zinc ionophore’s function is to create additional passages into the cell for zinc. This enables a cell to load up with zinc faster, than it normally would. Quercetin (another ionophore) and CoQ10 perform the same function as Hydroxychloroquine, without any toxic side effects. The study cited, can not stand up to scrutiny. It was not a double blind study. The test group was significantly younger than the control group. Death occurred, disproving any efficacy of the “findings”. Numerous people that started the study, were removed from the final data. The list goes on. Other double blind studies were conducted in two separate countries, and found “anectdotal” results at best. Currently, Doctors are prescribing 220mg of zinc sulfate (5 x RDA), with Hydroxychloroquine to FALSELY “prove” HCQ is an antiviral. Zinc has been proved for decades to inhibit intracellular viral replication, with or without supplemental transportation assistance. Without ZINC, Hydroxychloroquine is ineffective in fighting a virus.
Hydroxychloroquine is NOT an antiviral, neither are any other ionophores, or zip proteins, or Coenzymes. Anyone can research ionophores (synthetic and natural), and ZIP proteins as well, to verify my claims”I’m really bored with this entire non factual back and forth. One point, which must be said. New Jersey nursing homes comprise .7 of a percent of NJ residents, yet add up to more than 50% of deaths in NJ. In essence, we are all suffering the nursing home pain. So Ubiquitins “Shkoiyach” in his last post about nursing homes, (and much more of what he’s been saying) shows that although (perhaps) he has researched this disease medical perspective, he has not researched from a common sense one; much like too many even in the science and medical field. And the consequences are dire.
Antibias -“yet add up to more than 50% of deaths in NJ. In essence, we are all suffering the nursing home pain.”
Ubiq posted he’s a doctor; I wouldn’t blame doctors that work in Nursing Homes.
The 50% Rate is NOT Surprising!
The BLAME LIES Solely on the Owners!
I used to transport pts. to and from Nursing Homes.
And then I had to be in one for a few months.
Frum Owners make up 60% of NJ Nursing Homes!
Most Nursings Homes don’t practice Infection Control effectively.“SORRY – Not enough Zinc!
You need at least 200mg/day PO for Covid19.”nope I and they don’t. They did fine with 100.
antibias
“I’m really bored with this entire non factual back and forth. ”Are you being forced to read this thread? blink twice if you need rescuing
“So Ubiquitins “Shkoiyach” in his last post about nursing homes”
the shkoyach wasn’t about nursing homes. (I’m not even sure what you thought I was referring to)
It was about unsolicited advice about what someone else would have done in a situation not related to the one I was in.“and much more of what he’s been saying”
I am saying one thing and one thing only: Dr. Zelenko’s patients report does not prove that HCQ helps. That is all.
All the rest is commenting on follow up questions.“he has not researched from a common sense one”
what does that mean? how do you research from common sense perspective?PLEASE SEE the following video, and also all of you who waste time in the coffee room and claim you have no time:
May 12, 2020, “Dr. Zelenko will report 99% redaction of mortality”Listen to every word, you will be shocked, but what is happening IS shocking.
Ubiq -“nope I and they don’t. They did fine with 100.”
I’m glad your pts. did well.
Zinc acetate is probably one of the Zincs’ PO that is well absorbed.
Zinc picolinate is another one.
There are others that you need at least 200mg to make a difference. Eg. Zinc Gluconate.“Listen to every word, you will be shocked,”
I did . Wasn’t shocked. which part did you find shocking .
Other than the fact that he isn’t complelty knowledgeable (I’m not sure what he means by nobody has seen complications, depending how you define “complications” if you haven’t seen them then you haven’t been checking EKG’s) He states its used for lupus with no warnings. What is he talking about? Everybody who prescribes HCQ is well aware of the risks. I understand he is angry but if he is lying about this. What else is he lying about
Hy I guess you were right. It is a bit shocking
PS The Hydroxychloroquine is way better than chloroquine for covid 19.
From Lupus .org, the Lupus Foundation of America-
“Medications used to treat lupus”:
“The two types of antimalarials most often prescribed today for lupus are hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil®) and chloroquine (Aralen®). Unlike the rapid response seen with steroids, it may take months before antimalarial drugs improve your lupus symptoms.Side effects from antimalarials are rare and usually mild. They include upset stomach and changes in skin color. Side effects usually go away after the body adjusts to the medication.
In high doses and over time, certain antimalarial drugs may damage the retina of the eye (retinal toxicity), causing vision problems. If low doses of antimalarials are used in the treatment of lupus, the risk of this complication is low. However, as a precaution, people treated with antimalarials should get an eye exam before or soon after starting the drug. They should also visit an eye doctor (ophthalmologist) annually.
Long term plaquenil users on high doses will need to get check-ups for eye health regularly to prevent retinal toxicity from long-term use.
Pregnant women should continue to take their antimalarial medication as prescribed to avoid a lupus flare. Although this medication can cross the placenta, the possibility of eye and ear toxicity in the infant is very low. In fact, recent studies suggest that the risk of flare for the mother is higher than the risk of harming the fetus. ”
So, okay to treat coronavirus, short-duration medication, with zinc and antibiotics. The antibiotics only if necessary.
ready now -“The antibiotics only if necessary”
Tell that to Dr. Zelenko!
“So, okay to treat coronavirus, short-duration medication,”
Was this in dispute?
Ubiq wrote- “He states its used for lupus with no warnings. What is he talking about?”
then ubiq wrote- ” “So, okay to treat coronavirus, short-duration medication,”
Was this in dispute?”We can all see that you ubiq, change your stance at every turn.
Please take a well deserved short vacation, even within the confines of your abode, have a rest, reset and relax!Ready now- lupus is chronic. Longterm.
syag, yes we all know lupus is chronic, but it is also safe for coronavirus
The point is he isn’t changing his stance
ready “We can all see that you ubiq, change your stance at every turn.”
Nope No change.
From my very first post I made clear I am not opposed to giving HCQ here is the quote “For more moderate patients is questionable, I’d err on the side of giving.”
I then repeated this point approximatly a dozen times to make sure it wasnt getting lost.
I have no idea how this line ““He states its used for lupus with no warnings. What is he talking about?”” Is even a contradiction to above. I use it for lupus but not “without warning”
. I doubt Dr. Zelenko treats many with lupus . Lupus is generally treated (and diagnosed) by a rheumatologist I’ll bet I see more lupus than he does. (Though to be fair in a “small town ” as a General practitioner he may not refer to a specialist as much as physisicans do inn the city, though its not like KJ is in yene ek velt) And yes when prescribing it I always make sure they arent on any QTC prolonging medication, and I warn them if starting a new antibiotic to call me. I send them for yearly eye exams (not directly relevant to short term use for Covid) but he is plain old wrong when he states it is used without warnings he is either: a. lying b. doesnt use it or c. a bad doctor or d. a combination of the above)ubiq: He is giving it short term, and he has encountered no side effects, he said so. Why do you keep forgetting the zinc sulphate?
Just in case others do not know, lupus is treated long term with HOC with a much-reduced dose.
I wrote previously “Listen to every word, you will be shocked,”
and you were not shocked when he said what is happening in USA with the no treatment with HOC, antibiotics and zinc is murder and crimes against humanity.So why are you not shocked?
” He is giving it short term, and he has encountered no side effects, he said so”
He also said That when given for lupus people don’t warn about side effects.
“Why do you keep forgetting the zinc sulphate?
i havent forgotten once. I’m not sure why you think I have.
“So why are you not shocked?”
I don’t find it shocking when a someone who spends weeks trying to be in the media limelight says “shocking” things to drum up more views. I was a tiny bit surprised that he cannot talk rationally and calmly and has resorted to blatant mistruths (nobody has ever seen complications from HCQ? I prescribed it to a handful of people and one of them already had changes to his EKG) but “shocked” nope, Perhaps disappointing” He is giving it short term, and he has encountered no side effects, he said so”
HE SAID SO, AS SIMPLE AS THAT, no side effects seen!Re zinc you wrote, ” i haven’t forgotten once. I’m not sure why you think I have.”
You never mention it in conjunction with HOQ, that they must be given together and not as an option.Please respect the Dr, he has no motive to lie, to say he is drumming u views is LH, he has no views.
For those who that are looking for a safer alternative to Hydroxychloriquine or can’t access it due to State regulations, consider trying Quercetin and Zinc. Quercetin also works as a zinc ionophore in addition to potentially binding to the the viral S protein. It also has anti inflammatory properties to help inhibit the cykotine storm induced by Covid-19.
“Please respect the Dr, he has no motive to lie,”
so why did he?
And again, becasue you keep forgetting this point. This thread is not about whether HCQ works (yes with zinc ) nor whether it is ok for doctors who think it works to prescribe it (with zinc). Of course all doctors should prescribe medications they think work (with zinc) and as I said I prescribed it (with zinc)
Here is a thread on Quercetin which goes into detail on its potential use as as a preventative and treatment of Covid-19
No links please
I wrote previously-
“He is giving it short term, and he has encountered no side effects, he said so”
HE SAID SO, AS SIMPLE AS THAT, no side effects seen!
HE DID NOT LIE, no negative effects were reported.Ubiq, you are very close to bending the truth, and I am understating it.
NYU reported, a few days ago, a study, HOQ alone with antibiotic vs HOQ with antibiotic and zinc, which reported 44% fewer deaths in the “with zinc’ group.
So they let a heap of people die by withholding zinc!
“HE DID NOT LIE, no negative effects were reported.”
He did. did you watch the video?
He said it is given for Lupus and nobody warns about the risks.
This makes him either 1. lying and he hasnt used it for lupus. 2. Lying and he does warn about risks or 3. a bad doctorHe did not say it has no risks but the risks are relatively downplayed in relation to Hydroxychloroquine, HOQ’s use with lupus, compared to the huge outcry when the same medication is used to treat covid19!
The patients are always told of possible risks as that is routine, but without the fanatic opposition, the that HOQ has attracted for its use as a medicine used in combination with zinc to fight coronavirus.
Not lying, good doctor.
The quote in question is at 8:00 into the video
“These drugs have been used for millions of patients for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, and malaria and malaria prophylaxis. Even to this day. notice that there is no warnings to these patients that they shouldnt take the medication only if you take thsi medication for covid19 does it kill people.”There are only three explanations I can think of to make sense of this statement:
1) He doesnt prescribe it for lupus (and is mistaken (lying?) about the lack of warnings
2) He warns patients and is lying when he says he doesnt.
3) He is a bad doctor.I can’t think of another explanation. can you?
Of the three options I’m being dan lekaf zechus and going with #1
Again, just because a medication has risks is not a reason not to use it (with zinc)
“Hydroxychloroquine, HOQ’s use with lupus, compared to the huge outcry when the same medication is used to treat covid19”
I am not aware of any media blitzto push HCQ for all lupus patients. If there was you can bet there would be a outcry slow down discuss it with your doctor there are risks
Even pharmaceutical ads warn of riks “including death” and “discuss with your doctor whether xyz is right for you”
AND even if there was such a push.
1. There a re fewer patients lupus patients so side effect would be rarer.
2. The benefit is well established so the risk is justified.“The patients are always told of possible risks as that is routine,”
YEs! and monitored for those risks! Now you get it.
but anyway this is a long digression.
what is it that we are arguing about?
What point of mine do you disagree with- Is there one?“for covid19 does it kill people”
So I was correct. He did not say it has no risks but the risks are relatively downplayed in relation to Hydroxychloroquine, HOQ’s use with lupus, compared to the huge outcry when the same medication is used to treat covid19!
“monitored for risks” means “please let us know of any untoward side effects you may experience while taking this medication ”
Even the lupus national website has no mention of heart effects.
Let us finish this now.“So I was correct”
About what?
I have no idea if we are arguing or what it is about. But no you are not correct about anything,, as literally every post you write has at least one inaccuracy.
“ut the risks are relatively downplayed in relation to Hydroxychloroquine, ”
what does that mena? downplayed compared to what?
and don;t put words in his mouth. The vie ois there I quoted it verbatim.He said “there are no warnings to patients” when used for lupus.
This is plain and simply not true (or he is a bad doctor)““monitored for risks” means “please let us know of any untoward side effects you may experience while taking this medication ””
No it doesnt. it means checking an EKG before treatment starts, repeating one after. Telling patient to call if they start new meds particularly antibiotics like Azitrhomycin which increases the risk. (plus of course there is retinal toxicity but not relevant to short term use)The point is, that the SAME medication, Hydroxychloroquine is given a different write up depending on whether it is promoted for lupus or coronavirus. That is the point. And that is the point Dr Z was making.
ready nkw
Yes that’s his point but us hogwash. in both cases it should be prescribed and monitored by a doctor.
This is not controversial with lupus. But first some reason with covid people support everyone take it unmonitored based on one doctors say soubiq wrote-nobody has ever seen complications from HCQ?
I wrote-He says the negative side effects are “theoretical in HIS experience.” So he is treating patients before they get desperately sick who do not need necessarily hospitalization immediately but look as though they might need hospitalization if he doesn’t treat them immediately.
JOHNS HOPKINS RHEUMATOLOGY does not mention heart disturbances at all, and says that retinal damage can occur only in 1 out of 5,000 people who take the drug for five years or more, and they recommend an eye check at start of medication with hydroxychloroquine and six monthly thereafter.
The LUPUS website does not even mention heart effects.I am sure doctors are aware if a patient has a pre-existing heart condition, but for new patients it is inadvisable to wait for testing before giving the medication, if the life would hang in the balance with the threat of coronavirus. The risks have to be weighed.
“I am sure doctors are aware if a patient has a pre-existing heart condition”
It has nothing to do with preexisting heart conditions. HCQ is well known to extend the QTC (part of the heart rhythm, if it becomes to long the heart can descend into a potential fatal rhythm called torsades)
Certainly if a patient already has a long QTC they are at risk , this can be ascertained by a simple EKG.The bigger concern is then if more QTC prolonging mediations are added, like if the patient takes a z pack for say penumonia.
“if the life would hang in the balance with the threat of coronavirus. The risks have to be weighed”
no question.
I literally said this in my very first post way back on April 6. Go check its still thereSo the Doctor is good, very good, he said Hashem gave him the idea for the Hydroxychloroquine, z pack and zinc sulfate, that he takes no credit himself.
“So the Doctor is good, very good, he said Hashem gave him the idea for the Hydroxychloroquine, z pack and zinc sulfate, that he takes no credit himself.”
and did it help?
🙂
The medical utility of hydroxychloroquine is well established: works for lupus, works for malaria, dangerous but usually worth the risk for lupus and malaria. It is a shocking indictment of most of the commenters on this news article that there are almost 250 comments discussing a medical issue that is settled. There is no need for further discussion, but that has not stopped us YWN folks from continuing to discuss the medical efficacy of hydroxychloroquine for any illnesses other than lupus and malaria.
How about discussing the Salk vaccine for curing hemorrhoids.
Dr Zelenko said that there was “only” 1 death, has v sholom, in his district from covid19, but MULTIPLE deaths in the surrounding districts. There is your study, there are the results.
Huju, please cure hemorrhoids if you can, many people suffer from them, no joke, but it is still very important to take a stand for truth and for life, l’chaim.
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