If Nassi is wrong, how do you explain why 1000’s of older girls are stil single?

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  • #1516588

    Haimy
    Participant

    Nassi claims that the reason why there are so many older single girls relative to boys is due to the age gap of 19 to 22 when dating begins. There are more 19-year-olds than 22-year-olds, subsequently causing a shortage of boys.
    How do those that argue with Nassi explain why there are a handful of single boys over 30 relative to the hundreds if not thousands of single girls?

    #1516609

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1) They contest the assertion that there are so many more single girls than boys.
    2) They claim that there aren’t actually fewer boys, just that the boys aren’t in the same shidduch field as the girls being referred to (e.g. no longer frum).
    3) They claim that the reason there are so many unmarried girls isn’t because of age gap, it’s because the boys reject so many girls because of superficial reasons.

    #1516621

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    This constant drumbeat of a “shiduch crisis” for girls is both mindless and hurtful. Not sure where you are getting your data but there is a documented trend nationwide for millienials to marry at an older age so its quite possible the “normal” age for a chassanah, even among the frum is moving up a few years. There are other factors too including more frum girls pursuing advanced degrees and careers rather than marrying right after high school Its no big deal today to marry in your 20s or 30s. Efforts to make unmarried frum girls feel like damaged goods or failures is a big chillul hashem

    #1516625

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Litvish women should marry chassidish men.

    #1516627

    Joseph
    Participant

    It may be that the only likely solution to fix the problem is again permitting polygamy in the Ashkenazic community.

    #1516634

    Haimy
    Participant

    There is no shidduch crisis for frum girls? Why does Lakewood shadchan Freddie Friedman have a list of 2000 girls over the age of 25 with a fraction of that number of available boys to redt?
    If boys are rejecting girls for superficial reasons then where are all the single picky boys? The market of girls is so large, it’s much easier to reject a girl.
    The boys are no longer frum? not enough to create a crisis, & plenty of girls aren’t frum either which evens it out.

    I’d like to hear a rational explanation why so many girls are not finding a boy to marry.

    #1516669

    adocs
    Participant

    GH

    you wrote “Efforts to make unmarried frum girls feel like damaged goods or failures is a big chillul hashem”

    Everything else you wrote may be true. And you’re correct that girls should not be treated as damaged goods. But where are you getting your definition of chilul hashem?

    #1516668

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Dy’s 3rd reason

    First hand knowledge

    #1516644

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If controlled mixers/singles events were done under supervision, it would help out . I personally know a handful of older single girls who would never consider them because of yesivish social pressures etc or ess post nisht. I guess being single at 40 does poss. But if they were properly supervised they would consider going.

    #1516642

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’d like to hear a rational explanation why so many girls are not finding a boy to marry.

    I’m confused. Do you want to hear what the anti-NASI people say, or do you want to hear a rational explanation?

    #1516681

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    The idea that you bring freddies list as any type of “evidence” is part of the answer to your confusion. You may not be aware that freddie will only “service” a very specific (poorly defined by some as exclusive) portion of klal yisroel. His list does not contain a sampling that can be generalized by any strech of the imagination into a representation of the real world.
    At the same time it may represent the problem with the stats.

    #1516683

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Haimy invites an explanation, dy offers a personal attack at them before they get a chance to post. Im not not sure thats fair. It certainly wont encourage an attempt to join the conversation.

    #1516689

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    We can’t possibly know the reason so there’s no point of even trying!!!!!

    #1516691

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sometimes is not the idea that is wrong, but the way the message is proclaimed

    The right message told to people in the wrong way can fail too

    #1516697

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: How would *you* have presented this message?

    #1516702

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some people think a debate about ideas is a personal attack. It’s not.

    #1516706

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The idea that you bring freddies list as any type of “evidence” is part of the answer to your confusion.

    I agree that you can’t bring any raya from a (real or imagined) list one shadchan has. There can be any number of explanations why his list is skewed even if the overall numbers were uneven.

    #1516705

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Dy’s 3rd reason

    First hand knowledge

    See, the thing is, it doesn’t make sense. Sure, boys (and girls) have superficial criteria for who they’ll date or marry. However, if there isn’t some type of numbers disparity, even if boys were too picky, (to a worse extent than girls) there would still be just as many unmarried boys as girls.

    #1516707

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    A debate is about ideas, your comment was to “anti-nasi people vs rational explanation”.
    Pretend someone you respect wrote my post and youll see what i meant.

    #1516713

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thank you providing an example of what a personal attack actually is.

    #1516728

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I would not have stated or insinuated that women in their mid 20’s or 30’s are old maids

    Talk positive , not denegrate

    #1516727

    TheMir
    Participant

    The girls are also too picky. They are taught to expect to marry a type of guy that hardly exists. The extreme end of the litvish market – the super frum and the super modern find it easier. Its the middle road market that has trouble defining itself and so 8/10 suggestions are turned down even before dating. The girls in this market want a frum but chilled boy who shouldnt eeven be thinking about going to work but would have what it takes to run a business. Who is perfect in his learning, davening and yiras shamayim but will still have a wife with halachically questionable size and style of $5000 sheitel. The profile that will satisfy these girls requirements simply dies not exist.
    If girls would look someone to love and care about them and to do his best in both avidas haShem and Parnasah, without being rated and stereotyped, we would see many more shidduchim being made much easier.

    #1516726

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Haimy

    All of DY’s explanations are correct
    As is Syag’s.
    I know of more single boys han girls. any one person’s list isnt really evidence. Particularly when that list is skewed like Freddy’s. PArt of his problem is there are a lot more girsl > 25 who want a long term learner than there are long term learners > 25 (this is similar to DY’s #2) Its easy to want a long term learner its harder to be one.

    My question for you is the following
    Datign in y community is relatively rigid and involves the following steps:

    1) Shadchan proposes girls name to boy
    2) Name goes on his list
    3) Eventually boy gets to the name and does research (Ie mother does)
    4) the boy agrees to go out
    5) The girl is told of the boy
    6) she (ie her mother) does research
    7) girls agrees to go out
    8) they go out
    9) they go out some more
    10 they get engaged

    My question for you is where is the “backlog” of 1000’s shidduch crises girsl occurring ?
    Are boys not hearing of them? (Ie step 1) Are boys not agreeing to go out with them (before research? (3) after research? (4) etc) are the girls not willing to go out? (7) After dating are they not getting engaged (10)

    In what stage are these “1000’s of older girls” getting stuck?

    #1516732

    shlomo_frid
    Participant

    i do feel bad for any person not finding his/her shiduch;
    what i don;t understand with this theory, is : when did the cycle start? why did it become so extreme only in recent times; i may be mistaken, but not my impression that this was the situation 30 years ago;
    what about 150 years ago? if the concept is real, this situation should have come up way back in jewish history
    maybe i am missing something, help me understand
    i do wish everybody the best in finding an appropriate match

    #1516735

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Shlomo, it did exist 30 years ago.

    I don’t know if it existed 150 years ago, but many potentially contributing factors have changed since then.

    #1516739

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Defining "The Shidduch Crisis"

    Particularly, I think we need to be careful to distinguish between issues which can block shidduchim in general, and the alleged disparity between the number of girls and boys who aren’t married.

    #1516762

    shlomo_frid
    Participant

    DY: i was dating about 30 years ago, and my recollection is that the scene was very different than what it is now;
    i have a married daughter, but i do recall the pressure we all felt when it was time for her to start;
    it maybe not only anecdotal what i recall from 30 years ago, but do you have some real numbers to show that it was the case as you describe 30 years ago?
    is the situation the same in EY? what about Europe; if someone really wants to get to the bottom of this, don;t we need real numbers?

    #1516798

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (When I say definitely, I don’t mean that I have numbers, I mean it’s the strong impression I get from speaking to people about it.)

    #1516782

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The scene was different, but the boys definitely had the upper hand.

    #1516791

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @haimy
    You want a rational explanation why so many girls are not finding a boy to marry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I’ll give blunt and uncensored answers that may offend the community.
    My children are aged 22 to 42 and B”H all have married. My youngest 2 (girls) married within the past 18 months.

    #1 our daughters are NOT buying husbands. As soon as questions as to my income and how much I am willing to settle upon the young man, provide housing and how long I’ll support the couple/grandchildren while he sits and learns and expects my daughter to earn a living while keeping house and raising children…HE IS A REJECT.
    If a boy wants to sit and learn until he’s in his late 20s, then he should not be looking for a wife. It is not her family’s job to support him in his endeavors. Let his family do it.

    #2 My daughters are highly educated having both seminary and college and professional degrees and licenses. This knowledge and earning power makes them threatening to the Yeshiva bochur with no ‘real world’ experience or ability to make a proper living and support wife and family.

    #3 Attaining college and graduate degrees and professional licences takes time and these girls are older than the boys when they seek husbands.

    #4 the social stigma against marrying a girl a few years older than the boy is nonsense and should be discouraged. My eldest brother is 3 years younger than his wife. My eldest sister is older than her husband. Both couples are married more than 50 years. My two eldest daughters are both about 2 years older than their husbands…big deal.

    #5 Time to get away from the professional shidduchin with endless shidduch questions and resumes. This makes marriage harder and creates false supply and demand. Let the mothers/friends/relative network do its job. They know the young people and the families best and know who is suitable or compatible much better than a shadchan with hundreds or thousands of names.

    None of our children were married through the services of a shadchan. In fact, only one was tried when a daughter was going to Australia for an extended visit. The experience was horrendous. Every boy suggested was just looking for an American meal ticket and green card.

    Our eldest son’s MIL went to summer camp with my wife and the ladies have been friends for almost 55 years. They realized the children would be a good match and made it happen.

    2nd son was introduced to a neighbor of first DIL.

    Eldest daughter was fixed up with male cousin’s roommate at Yeshiva.
    Next daughter married brother of college roommate.
    Youngest daughter ended up married to cousin of SIL.
    My nephew married his sister’s sem roommate.

    My parents met at summer camp in the 1930s. Dad was a counselor at the boy’s camp on one side of the lake, mom was a counselor at the girl’s camp on the other side. Motzei Shabbos the camp owner hosted get togethers under supervision for the staff to meet. They were married more than 65 years. Many of their staff friends met their mates this way.

    Mrs. CTL and I had many mutual friends. I was on a bad date with one. She told me that I was not suitable for her, but she had a friend who would be a good fit. Turned out to be the future Mrs. CTL.

    SO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ignore the age differential. Learn to network. If you or your child has a shidduch suggestion that is not worth a second date, don’t just say goodbye, consider if one of your friends might be suitable for the rejected person.

    The crisis is not real, logistical problems and artificial roadblocks can be surmounted.

    It is NOT about the money.

    #1516811

    slominer
    Participant

    “Shlomo, it did exist 30 years ago.”

    Then there should be thousands of more frum single 50-60 year old women than frum single 50-60 year old men. If that’s the case it should be obvious to everyone that there’s so many more thousands of unmarried middle aged frum women than men.

    Is this really obvious to everyone?

    “I don’t know if it existed 150 years ago, but many potentially contributing factors have changed since then.”

    What many contributing factors have changed?

    #1516815

    slominer
    Participant

    “The scene was different, but the boys definitely had the upper hand.”

    They’ve had the upper hand since Har Sinai.

    #1516821

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    CTL, while your family shidduch history is certainly interesting, your family clearly doesn’t fit the profile for the types of families NASI appeals to.

    Your point that people shouldn’t be so hung up on age, and should consider shidduchim where the girl is older than the boy, is one which I’m sure NASI would wholeheartedly agree with.

    #1516843

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What many contributing factors have changed?

    To name a few: age of chosson, age of kallah, the expectation that money shouldn’t play a role, childbirth mortality, arranged marriages (related to age).

    #1516833

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Then there should be thousands of more frum single 50-60 year old women than frum single 50-60 year old men.

    There probably are.

    #1516851

    Haimy
    Participant

    Once again: If the problem is because of picky girls then there should be an equal amount of rejected boys who can’t find a shidduch. Where are all those unmarried boys?
    No shortage of boys? Why are girls marrying divorced men with children? Why is there no organization like Nassi for the single boys?
    How can average boys ask for full support if there wasn’t a market imbalance?
    Please provide a rational explanation that doesn’t include the age gap at the core of this problem.

    #1516862

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Haimy

    “Where are all those unmarried boys?”
    All over

    “No shortage of boys? ”
    no

    “Why are girls marrying divorced men with children?”
    Lots of reasons,

    ” Why is there no organization like Nassi for the single boys?”
    Maybe THATS why there is a problem!

    How can average boys ask for full support if there wasn’t a market imbalance?”

    Its a free country they can do what they want. Of course they then get helped by (well meaning?) organizations that spread fear that if girls dont cough up money they wont get married

    Please provide a rational explanation that doesn’t include the age gap at the core of this problem.
    Gladly!

    though to help you through it first answer my above questions as to where you think the problem is occurring. and if the Age gap TM can be an explanation (whether at all or at the core) of the problem

    #1516855

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There were always people who never married,

    I also know that in previous generations people married people from other communities, meaning such things as frum people would marry non-relgious people. That rarely happens anymore

    #1516856

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“It may be that the only likely solution to fix the problem is again permitting polygamy in the Ashkenazic community.”

    STOP trying to get a second wife!
    As far as the 1000 girls – I’ll take them, just like Shlomo Hamelech!
    Problem Solved!

    #1516870

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiq: 4-10

    #1516881

    Haimy
    Participant

    Ubiquitin the problem starts when a boy lands in Lakewood & immediately (in many cases) has a long list of girls 19-24 to go out with. Of course the youngest, more chashuv, beautiful, wealthy, etc. girls move to the top of the list. The shadchanim focus on these easy shidduchim first because there’s a higher success rate with bigger shadchonus.
    Meanwhile, the average excellent girls sit waiting for a date& growing older. Repeat this over & over & you have a crisis.
    If the market was even, then boys wouldn’t have long lists of girls to reject & grow older.
    I spoke to a successful shadchanim who told me she only deals in fresh crop of boys & girls because they are the easiest to get engaged, the rest aren’t worth her time.
    I think this basically explains what’s going on.

    #1516886

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I have a theory that like many of the issues we have today, the situation of girls not finding a shidduch has always existed to some extent (In the alte heim, if a girl could not afford a dowry, she had very little chance of getting a shidduch. In early 20th century America, it was hard for a frum person to find another frum person to marry.) but now it is more noticeable because the frum population has B”H grown so much over the recent past, so that even if the % has not gotten larger, it translates to a much larger number, a greater critical mass so to speak that requires community attention. Also, the world is a smaller place- so that we are more aware of the problems that exist beyond our small communities. And since unlike past generations where the struggle to just survive and remain frum took up so much effort, now we can “afford” to notice other pressing issues affecting our communities.

    #1516885

    slominer
    Participant

    “What many contributing factors have changed?”

    To name a few: age of chosson, age of kallah, the expectation that money shouldn’t play a role, childbirth mortality, arranged marriages (related to age).

    Since 30 years ago… how much has the age of the Choson gone up? How is money more of a role today? How are arranged marriages different now from then?

    Is it realistic to go back to how it was done 30 years ago? Is it a good idea to do so?

    #1516892

    Joseph
    Participant

    Winnie, I agree with you. Which is why I think the proposed solution in my first comment above, implemented in a limited and regulated way, may be the only real solution.

    #1516894

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “If the market was even, then boys wouldn’t have long lists of girls to reject & grow older.”

    I’ not sure why you have that mistaken assumption.

    If there are 100 boys and 100 girls.
    The way our dating is set up the shadchan callls with girls names.
    He starts collecting them (since he isnt dating yet, everybody has a list, he needs time to research etc etc)
    Now all 100 boys have lists with 100 girls and they start doing heir research. there are an equal number of boys and girls yet many lists

    So far there is no crises. The existence of lists has nothing to do with any Age gap TM and certianly nothing to do with girls over 25.
    As soon as a young man starts “the parsha” wihin days (often even before he starts) he already has his list. PArtly due to the rigidity of the above system.

    You correctly point out “Meanwhile, the average excellent girls sit waiting for a date”
    Exactly right, The holdup is occuring between step 3-4 above. The boys have ists and the girls are waiting and davening to be chosen for a date.
    this however has little (if not nothing) to do with the age gap tm. The age gap explains why girls arent getting married . IF 100 boys try to marry 110 girls 10 will be left without a partner. But as you correctly point out it isnt getting that far.
    Dating (unlike marriage) is not done 1:1 guys date more than one girl before they marry. assume our 100 guys go out with an average of 3 girls each before they marry. That is 300 girls that can be dated. That means each of the 110 girsl should have an average of 2.7 guys to go out with. As you correctly point out that is not happening.
    The Age gap tm Does not explain why this isnt hapening (though it may be a samll factor, and POSSIBLY) might become a bigger factor if the dating field is made more even.

    The real problem is that we have taken the downsides of the chasdish system (the amount of energy/esiek/research etc that goes into getting a couple to just meet !) combined it with the downside of the Modern system (endless dating that may or may not go anywhere) and we wonder why combining the bad parts of all sytems doesnt lead to a good system.

    As you correctly end off “I think this basically explains what’s going on.”
    you are right! though note it has nothing to do with the Age gap tm. It is as the shadchan you spoke to points out, boys reject girls too much and wont go out.

    #1516896

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Haimy is making a good point. The choke points in shidduchim are the shadchan and the boy’s mother. the shadchan wants the easy shidduchim because she needs to make a living. The mother wants a fantastic shidduch so she can feel worth-while and successful and have bragging rights with her family and friends.

    As far as the math, say there are 100 boys and 100 girls in each age group, and the boys begin shidduchim at 23, and the girls at 19. So: age 23 – there are 100 boys who are looking at a pool of girls 19-23. That’s five years worth of girls, at 5 x 100 = 500. But the numbers never even out, because as the boys age they keep looking for girls who are younger. so inevitably there are going to be girls that never get matched. From what I’ve seen, a lot of the older unmarried boys are unmarried because they’ve gone off the derech but are keeping it quiet because they don’t want to hurt their families, particularly the younger siblings’ shidduch opportunities.

    So what’s going to happen to those “left-over” girls as they get older and realize they’re never going to make a match in the frum community, and will never have the chance at marrige and children? Some of them will marry non-religious Jews. And probably some of them as they approach 40 will give up and marry non-Jews. Our next crisis may be a couple of decades down the line when we’re trying to figure out what to do about a group of young people who are halachically Jewish but whose fathers are non-Jews.

    I suggest we get working on possible solutions fast, unless we just decide that those older “girls” and their potential children are expendable, so kol Yisroel areivem zeh l’zeh is irrelevant. I wonder what the One Above would think of that kind of attitude? I’d rather not find out.

    #1516918

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The shidduch crisis began when the definition of “ben torah” was changed from, someone who learns as much as possible, is shomer torah umitzvos and respects rabbonim, to someone in yeshiva 3 full sedarim a day.

    #1516930

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Since 30 years ago… how much has the age of the Choson gone up? How is money more of a role today? How are arranged marriages different now from then?

    Is it realistic to go back to how it was done 30 years ago? Is it a good idea to do so?

    I think the problem existed 30 years ago.

    #1516931

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiq, if we start with 100 boys and 100 girls, there wouldn’t be an unequal number left over no matter who is redt first.

    #1516932

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The shidduch crisis began when the definition of “ben torah” was changed from, someone who learns as much as possible, is shomer torah umitzvos and respects rabbonim, to someone in yeshiva 3 full sedarim a day.

    Shidduch crisis? What shidduch crisis?

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