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There are lots of public speakers and authors of jewish books that go by the title “Rabbi” when they clearly do not have s’micha. Is that yashrus? Is that permitted halachically? They are advertised at asifas and pesach programs as Rabbi too. If women “rabbi”s cannot be called “rabbi” because they do not have s’micha, then why should a lecturer without s’micha be called “Rabbi” instead of something fitting like Rav or Mr. ?
Nobody has smicha anymore
I should think that with a title Rav, it would imply smicha too.
The “Smicha” today is not the real smicha .
Rav Moshe Z’l used to refer to reform and conservative clergymen as rabbis, those true to mesora he would call a Rav.
I guess rabbi isnt such a flattering term.
Yes.
A Rebbi of children (Limudei Kodesh) can and should be refferred to as Rabbi even if he does not have smicha – out of respect for the position.
Ugh I hate this. So so much.
If you have a problem with him take it up with him. Don’t be a coward and take pot shots at him anonymously on an anonymous forum. Also, quit while your ahead and you are only at rechilus. This could easily spread to lashon hara and motzi shem ra.
The Chafetz Chaim wrote the Mishna Berura without smicha. Is he a Rabbi?
apy – well said on my behalf. Had I known where he was going I would’ve deleted it from the start. I guess being called a Rabbi is a worse offense than lashon hora.
Sepahradim use “Rabbi” (pronounced “rabbee”) as a title of honor similar to the Yiddish “Reb”.
It is correct and proper to call someone who teaches Torah a rabbi, irregardless of hantige smicha or lack thereof.
There you have it in a nutshell.
Actually I think Sephardim usually use the term Chacham, Its really Chacham Ovadiah Yosef not Rav Ovadiah Yosef
I’ve said this before, but I’ll mention it again. Whenever someone calls me “Rabbi,” I object. If someone sends mail to my house addressed to “Rabbi…” it doesn’t get opened.
I believe that a person who does not have semicha should not be addressed as Rabbi. If you give the honorific to people who did not earn it, then the title becomes meaningless.
That being said, I do recognize that there are some people who should be called Rabbi, even without semicha, ex-officio. A prime example of that would be a grade or high school rebbe who should be addressed by his pupils as “Rabbi…” even if he doesn’t have formal semicha.
The Wolf
Joe: What about women?
A prime example of that would be a grade or high school rebbe who should be addressed by his pupils as “Rabbi…” even if he doesn’t have formal semicha.
How should others address him?
Also, what do you think the appropriate title should be for someone who has semichah, but doesn’t use it in any official capacity?
writersoul: Orthodox men only.
What about women?
Call them Rabbits.
“Joe: What about women?”
The title would be Rebbetzin
How should others address him?
If it’s in the context of him performing his duties, then Rabbi. For example, I wouldn’t have a problem with the parents of pupils calling him “Rabbi…” during PTA or in other school contexts.
Also, what do you think the appropriate title should be for someone who has semichah, but doesn’t use it in any official capacity?
Rabbi. They’ve earned it.
The Wolf
If it’s in the context of him performing his duties, then Rabbi. For example, I wouldn’t have a problem with the parents of pupils calling him “Rabbi…” during PTA or in other school contexts.
Sounds like if they met in the grocery, you’d be fine if they called him Mr. I disagree.
Rabbi. They’ve earned it.
You do realize that semichah entails a test on certain limited portions of Shulchan Aruch, some of which aren’t very relevant to common shailos, and that the fellow may have forgotten most of what he learned.
Sounds like if they met in the grocery, you’d be fine if they called him Mr. I disagree.
The student, no. The parents, maybe.
You do realize that semichah entails a test on certain limited portions of Shulchan Aruch, some of which aren’t very relevant to common shailos, and that the fellow may have forgotten most of what he learned.
Yes, I do. However, he doesn’t have to be a practicing rabbi to have the title, much as we still call retired doctors “Dr…”
Whether or not you should use him to answer your shailos is an entirely different question. I’m not suggesting that everyone with the title should be answering shailos, as you yourself pointed out. But we don’t revoke the title.
If a Gadol came down with dementia or Alzheimer’s or something terrible of that nature, would you no longer call him “Rav…” even though you know he can’t actually function as one anymore?
The Wolf
Does rabbiofberlin have semicha?
On your logic the Gemara should have deleted every “hahoo gavra” because one of Ravina’s chavrusas might associate the “gavra” with someone they knew “oy lashon hora” ! NO.
HOW DID I GET INVOLVED IN THIS????
“Rebbitzen” as a title is something like a step above Mrs. It is not the female equivalent of “Rabbi”.
The Rosh Yeshiva of Toras Moshe in Yerushalyim had (has?) the habit of calling everyone “Rabbi” (as in “My Dear Rabbi”).
“Everyone gets called Rabbi these days.
That is why Maran is used, so the editor can separate those who he/she thinks are the real rabbonim from the run of the mill “Rabbi” or “Rav”.
Now “Gavra” is a title with real Chashivus. As in “Hahu Gavra”. He is mentioned more times in the Gemorah than any other Tanna or Amorah.
Mr. and Mar (as in “Amar Mar” (second place)) are also acceptable.”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbinic-titles
If a Gadol came down with dementia or Alzheimer’s or something terrible of that nature, would you no longer call him “Rav…” even though you know he can’t actually function as one anymore?
Of course I would, but it’s an inapt comparison.
Why does someone who spent a couple of years learning certain parts of Yoreh Deah deserve a title of respect, but someone who may have spent more time than that mastering mesechtos in Shas, or other parts of Shulchan Aruch (or even the same parts without a test) not?
The gadol earned that title with decades of toil, and made himself into a living sefer Torah. Luchos v’shivrei luchos munachin ba’aron.
Why does someone who spent a couple of years learning certain parts of Yoreh Deah deserve a title of respect, but someone who may have spent more time than that mastering mesechtos in Shas, or other parts of Shulchan Aruch (or even the same parts without a test) not?
The gadol earned that title with decades of toil, and made himself into a living sefer Torah. Luchos v’shivrei luchos munachin ba’aron.
I’m willing to concede that someone who is recognized by the general populace as a talmid chacham would be another type of exception that I mentioned. I would not call the Chofetz Chaim “Mr. Kagan” during the time he did not have semicha.
That being said, I still maintain that anyone who has earned the title should be allowed to keep it, even if they are no longer practicing.
The Wolf
I personally feel that there is a big difference between someone calling themselves “Rabbi” and others calling him a “Rabbi”. It is certainly generous and respectful to call a Rebby in yeshiva or anyone revered for good middos with the title “Rabbi” even if he has not earned semicha. However, for that person to call himself a “Rabbi” is simply a sheker and gnaivas daas.
By the way, after shelling out tens of thousands of dollars in tuition I find it troubling that Yeshivos don’t hire people who spent the time, effort and commitment for semicha to teach our children.
Nowadays, the mentor of a cop is referred to as “Rabbi” by other cops.
Wolf: What if a smicha earner became frei?
By the way, after shelling out tens of thousands of dollars in tuition I find it troubling that Yeshivos don’t hire people who spent the time, effort and commitment for semicha to teach our children.
Yeah, how can someone possibly be a good rebbe if he didn’t learn hilchos melichah?
No wonder so many kids go OTD.
oyveygevalt: what does proficiency in dinay issur vheter have to do with teaching your’s or anyone’s children?
So all you guys refer to Shlomo Carlebach o”h as Rabbi?
Which brings me back to this…
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/uncategorized/946/shlomo-carlebach-ordains-female.html
Joe, etc: My point wasn’t that women should be called rabbi. My point was only that it is a double standard that even when men and women fulfill the same function, only the man gets to be called by an elevated title he hasn’t truly earned. (And no, as RebYidd said, Rebbetzin doesn’t count.)
writersoul: Why doesn’t rebbetzin count? How about Rebbetzin Kanievsky?
Writersoul: men and women have different roles in life, with different functions and with different standards.
My point was only that it is a double standard that even when men and women fulfill the same function, only the man gets to be called by an elevated title he hasn’t truly earned.
If you don’t want women to be called rabbis, how do you propose to fix the double standard? Related, how do you quantify “truly earned”?
Wolf: What if a smicha earner became frei?
Good question. When I come across the situation I’ll decide and let you know.
The Wolf
Wolf: Do you call Jackie Mason, Rabbi Jackie Mason?
Sheker, neither was ordained. In Pirkei Avot (4:20, the former is mentioned without a title. The latter was either an ordinary mamzer (Sanhedrin 67a – uncensored version) or talmid (ibid 107b) who went OTD. Maybe both. Some historians believe that Yushki was a composite (note that Ben Pandera’s mother was Mary Magdalen[ashaya]).
Wolf: Do you call Jackie Mason, Rabbi Jackie Mason?
Good question… I probably wouldn’t, simply because he doesn’t refer to himself that way.
Wolf: the classic ordained rabbanim who went off the d were Elisha Ben Abuya and Jesus.
Were either of them actually ordained? I don’t seem to recall ever seeing any evidence of that. Of Jesus, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have any. Of Elisha, is it possible that he became a heretic before ordination (much as Ben Azzai and Ben Zoma went insane/died before ordination)?
he latter was either an ordinary mamzer
And where is it written that a mamzer can’t achieve semicha? It’s true he can’t sit in the Sanhedrin, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t acheive semicha.
The Wolf
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