I'm speechless

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  • #601484

    cinderella
    Member

    I was in 7/11 today getting my Big Gulp and I was on line waiting to pay and the (how do I describe this?) thing happened. A Jewish, frum, seemingly Bais Yaakov girl was in front of me also waiting to pay. You know how they have all the chocolate by the cash register? Well, she picks up a chocolate bar which was not kosher.

    I tapped her on the shoulder and told her that the chocolate bar she was holding wasn’t kosher. So she says to me “It’s not treif, it just doesn’t have a hechsher, it has the same ingredients as all the kosher chocolate. It’s fine to eat.”

    I was seriously speechless. When I recovered, I said, “Well you know you are not allowed to eat something which is not certified kosher?” And she said that it’s not such a big deal since all the ingredients are kosher.

    And she bought it. And I’m assuming she ate it.

    I am not making this up.

    #846096

    sam4321
    Participant

    There are products out there which don’t have a hechsher and are kosher,not saying that product is or not.

    #846097

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    cinderella –

    I would do the same thing (and I do it all the time). Not everyone holds that any products require a hechsher. In fact in some countries there aren’t any hechsherim, and people walk around with a list of ingredients so they can figure out what’s kosher by reading the package labels.

    #846098

    cantgetit
    Member

    yit – how do you know the machinery used to make the food products wasn’t also used with treif ingredients on other products made with the same machinery?

    #846099

    cinderella
    Member

    Whoa- So You’re telling me I can walk into a store and buy somthing without an O-U on it just because I don’t see pig fat or something like that written on the label?

    #846100

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Maybe she is OTD? You did the correct thing to tell her. There are so many chocolates that are kosher, wondering why she would choose a non kosher one.

    #846101

    Cinderlla – actually, if you actually know what the ingredients are, and how they are processed, you can!

    And also, just out of curiosity – what company chocolate was it? I can’t even think of a (plain) chocolate bar that is not kosher…

    #846102

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    cinderella –

    Yes. As long as you know what each ingredient means and you know they are all kosher, you are fine. Though as usual, ask a rav before listening to some anonymous blogger.

    (By the way, did your Big Gulp have a hechsher on it?)

    cantgetit –

    There is no reason to assume that there is a problem. There are a few halachic arguments one can make to that effect, but I think they are beyond the scope of this discussion (my point was just to say that there are those who say it is fine, so one should not be alarmed seeing a seemingly frum Jew doing so).

    #846103

    cantgetit
    Member

    How do you know the machinery used to make the food products wasn’t also used with treif ingredients on other products made with the same machinery?

    #846105

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yitayningwut: Can you give us some examples of things you buy without a hechsher? We’d like to get feel for what you are referring to.

    The only things I buy without a hechsher are some very basic minimally processed ingredients, which are known to always be processed in a kosher way (like dried peaches), and processed items which are known to be made in a uniform and kosher manner (like unflavored beer).

    The CRC’s website is a good resource for this.

    #846106

    mazal77
    Participant

    I think in England, they don’t put hechers either on products. You have to shop with a list with all the kosher products listed. When a relative of mine went to London, they called the local kashrus organization, about what chocolates they could buy there. For example, They were told the cadbury products were acceptable.

    I wouldn’t say the girl is OTD, there are alot of people who read ingredients and figure, it’s fine. That idea was popular many years back. As I’ve grown, in yiddishkeit, I’ve learned that there are many problems that can arise. But when reading a recent publication last week, about what supervising mashigiachs uncovered, in restaurants, that are under their hashgachah, how can anybody be sure of what they are eating is 100% kosher? Just because someone claims it is kosher, how do you know for certain, even with a hecsher?

    #846107

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    cantgetit –

    Just answered you, in my above post.

    #846108

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa –

    Anything. Bread, cookies, chips, drinks, you name it.

    #846109

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Again, I know a lot of people don’t hold this way, and I am not coming to pasken for everyone. I am just saying that it is an opinion that’s out there, and one which I personally hold by (per my rav).

    #846110

    cinderella
    Member

    Curious- It was Hersheys N’ More Caramel. It was Hersheys which is usually Kosher so I thought maybe she thought it was but she knew it wasn’t.

    Yitayningwut- How can you buy bread and things like that without a hechsher? Pas yisroel? Bishul Akum? How can you be sure it’s really kosher?

    So just because something is not treif, and has no non-kosher ingredients on it, you can eat it? If yes, then I’m sorry to whoever it was at 7/11. The thing is that a lot of Hersheys stuff are kosher so for them to say that something isn’t there must be a reason. Right?

    #846111

    supergirl613
    Member

    So what you guys are saying is that We’re allowed to eat treif? If the Torah states you are not allowed I don;t thunk there are exceptions to the rule. You can’t bend about ways to what the Torah says. what the girl did was wrong unless she had a good explanation for it. it’s not right to do something like that and she probably got an avairah for doing so.

    #846112

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    cinderella – I’m with you. And I am impressed you said anyting. I have not heard of anyone ‘shopping’ in that way in 30 years since hechshers became regularly printed. I only buy unlabeled things when my neighbor who is a maskiach tells me about a certain run (like which oreos are parve)

    #846113

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    This not the normative position taken by poskim in America, even among MO poskim.

    Follow your mesorah, everyone.

    #846114

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    cinderella –

    I don’t want to get into technical halacha discussions here, but here are some facts. The is an opinion out there that pas akum and bishul akum are not a problem with packaged goods from a company (since the only issue is that they will lead you to become friendly with the goyim and in with packaged goods from a company that’s not a concern). There are other reasons as well.

    The thing is that a lot of Hersheys stuff are kosher so for them to say that something isn’t there must be a reason. Right?

    For one, OU’s policy is not to rely on certain halachic leniencies. Her rav might hold there is no reason not to.

    You didn’t do anything wrong. You were following what you had been taught, and it’s impressive that you thought to be mekayem the mitzva of tochacha. I’m just giving you some info for the future, that there are perfectly valid opinions out there which say that reading ingredients is fine.

    #846115

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    supergirl613 –

    I’m not saying you should do this. My main point is that you shouldn’t be alarmed if you see people doing this, because they have what to rely on.

    #846116

    farrockgrandma
    Participant

    I remember, in the dark ages when I was young, that candy bars were innocent unless proven guilty (by scanning the ingredients.) Those days are over. Now that products are available with a hechsher, and we know more about what can go wrong, we no longer rely on that.

    btw, I saw a new Hershey’s products several months ago, and their website indicated that it was kosher, and it was noted on the label shortly thereafter. but don’t try this at home!

    #846117

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut has previously identified himself as a student of Rav Abadi.

    Rav Abadi is a tremendous baki in kashrus both in halacha and “metzius” i.e. the facts about various ingredients including chemicals, where and how they’re processed etc. He is also a major proponent of people educating themselves to be able to shop in exactly the way yitayningwut describes. Obviously, someone who does not eat pas palter or chalav stam cannot shop this way.

    #846118

    amichai
    Participant

    you did right thing by telling her. if she wanted a longer discussion about it, you could have continued. we do not know that she ate it. maybe she left the store and decided not to, because your words rang in her ears.

    #846119

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I routinely buy fruits and vegetables without a hechsher. But then again, what do I know? I’m just a lowlife rasha.

    I guess I should do teshuva and make sure to only buy apples with a hechsher from now on.

    Ah, forget it. I’ll just continue in my wickedness.

    The Wolf

    #846120

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Itche, thanks.

    #846121

    cinderella
    Member

    Thanks for teaching me this, yitay. I never even imagined that it was okay to do this. I was so shocked. (Also, I don’t think this girl was doing it because her Rav said it was okay but I’ll be dan lkaf zchus…)

    #846122

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    My brother worked at a plant where they processed the green dye for pickles, toothpaste etc. He said they used to use the same pipes for mamash treif fluids on other days. How would you know what is going on with equipment without a mashgiach?

    #846123

    I’m speechless too… this is what you felt was worthy of this thread title? If you’re old enough to be on the internet unsupervised, then you’re old enough to know that not everyone is like you. I do the same as yitaningwut, as per my (very Orthodox) Rabbi. As do many people I know.

    #846124

    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – So your saying that hashem needs to put an OU on his apple trees?

    #846125

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Is he also rude?

    #846126

    Parshaman
    Member

    It could be true that these items are all kosher but why take the chance? Especially when there is so much Kosher food nowadays to choose from, However if a person does want to take that chance then its up to them you can not be machmir for other people.

    #846127

    mazal77: Not so. There are of course hechsherim on food in England

    What you probably mean is the London Beis Din yearly list. It lists foods (without their hechsher) which they have checked into and consider kosher.

    Besides for that there are plenty foods with a LBD hechsher and there are other hechsherim too.

    #846128

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    From an online forum, with the OP asking “Why is the “Hershey’s N’ More Caramel” candy bar not Kosher?”:

    This is just a guess:

    If you check out Hershey’s Kashrus page (yes, they have one), you’ll see that all three items in the “Hershey’s ‘N More” line are not kosher. One of those items is Hershey’s ‘N More Marshmellow. Marshmellow is a very tricky item, kashrus wise. It’s entirely possible that the other two Hersheys ‘N More products are produced on the same equipment as the Marshmellow product, making the other two items not kosher.

    #846129

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Now my comment – Hershey’s spends a lot of money to have their products certified – they obviously think it’s worth it. If it was inherently kosher, why wouldn’t they do so for this product as well? (This is not a full blown raya, but it is a big rei’usa.)

    #846130

    Sam2
    Participant

    Yitay is a Talmid of Rav Abadi’s, whose P’sak on this is not accepted by most others. That’s fine for Yitay and his other Talmidim, but not for everyone. I think Yitay’s point is that there is a very good Limud Zechus for this girl (who knows, maybe she follows Rav Abadi as well?), not that we all should do like she does.

    #846131

    popcorn
    Member

    Hersheys has a proper Kosher certification on their Kosher products. If this Hersheys N’ More Caramel Bar did not have a Hechsher on the label then it means that this specific product is not valid as Kosher.

    #846132

    hello99
    Member

    I’m sure yitayningwut is joking.

    As a Rav with extensive Kashrus expertise, I can assure you that modern food production creates a situation where innocuous sounding ingredients are treif. Anyone who does what he suggests is a Mumar Ochel Neveilos l’Teiavon. If he was a witness at your chasuna you should get married again!

    #846133

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    hello99: He’s not joking. He follows Rabbi Abadi in Lakewood, who apparently holds this.

    #846135

    jmj613
    Participant

    first of all kudos to cindarella that you did this. I dont know Rav Abadi from Lakewood but we live in europe and our kashruscommittee(which my father in law is leading who is a renown rav and expert in kashrus in europe and abroad)gives out once a year a little booklet with products that have been checked which once can buy here without hechsher. I have had many talks to my shwer and cannot imagine one can only say somethings kosher out of looking on the ingrediantslist. There are so many shaales on the rest that i believe anyone who understands the value of kashrus besides the fact you can get in usa kosher things in any place(with hechsher)will just never pick up a product and just eat because he thinks the ingrediants are kosher. Thats my opinion after dealing with kashrus issues for a long time. I also have visited factories with my shwer and am not sayin now nothing can be kosher without a hechsher but it needs proper checking. and i guess baal nefesh hamachmir tavo alav habracha

    #846136

    YW Moderator-72
    Participant

    1) if I recall correctly – not all ingredients need to be printed on the label – I think if it is less than 2% it does not need to be included.

    2) years ago when Nabisco started printing on the boxes 100% vegetable shortening I had the opportunity to discuss this with a person who worked in the baking division. I was selling suits at the time and we were talking as he was trying on and being fitted. I asked him about the 100% vegetable shortening and he told me not to believe it. His reason was that if he finished a run that was not 100$ vegetable shortening ie. it was lard, they would not empty and clean the vat with from the lard – rather they would just add vegetable shortening to the vat.

    #846137

    cinderella
    Member

    Hi Prince Charming, I know that the Hersheys N’ More line of chocolate are not kosher. Like what Daas Yochid and popcorn said above, there has to be a reason for this because a lot of Hersheys stuff are kosher. So when I told this to the girl at 7/11, she blew me off. She did not care that the ingredient list was kosher, her reasoning was that if it doesn’t have meat in it, who cares? She was not following any Ravs advice, she just did not care. So yeah, I was speechless.

    #846138

    oomis
    Participant

    This whole thread reminds me of a time when I was eating something in the cafeteria at College (an ice cream) and a friend of mine whom I had not seen in a while, though she was also a student there, came up to me, grabbed the ice cream out of my hand and flung it in the garbage, saying, “Don’t you know this is not kosher?” BUT – SHE was mistaken. She had not yet heard that the company had in the last two months gone under a hechsher.

    Meanwhile, I was embarrassed, she made a scene, I was out the yummy ice cream, and she did not offer to pay for it (and I didn’t demand that she do so, as people already were staring). So what’s my point?? I think in the end, people do want to (quietly) be made aware that something they are getting is not kosher, but be VERY sure that you are right. And above all, never embarrass someone who is eating something you think is treif. You could be mistaken, too. I would go to the person and say, “Oh that looks delicious; I didn’t know they finally got a hechsher!” That gets the point across, and then it is up to the person to take the message or not.

    #846139

    morahmom
    Participant

    it would gets me really nervous when people start paskening halacha according to the CR…

    We have come such a long way in the availability of candy bars – and everything else – with reliiable hechsheirim. Why not stick to those? Is there a shortage of Kosher junk food?

    #846140

    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – Where are you getting that information from?

    #846141

    soliek
    Member

    You can’t possibly know what every ingredient in every chemical and artificial flavour/colour loaded candy bar is, and as such are not qualified to make a decision on its kashrus status based simply on the listed ingredients. Furthermore, many candy bars et al. usually list something along the lines of “and other natural flavours” as the last ingredient listing. That moniker is used to inform the consumer that there are ingredients in the item whose quantities are not large enough to require itemized listing, but are not necessarily batul b’shishim. Even if it was less than a sixtieth, it would still be debatable, and most would paskan assur anyway.

    I could hear the moreh heter to self-paskan based on reading ingredients back in the 50’s, but in 2012, with the dearth of OU (et al.) certified products, to still self-paskan by reading ingredients shows a certain disregard for kashrus. Where no other option is available the case can be made, but if you can just as easily pick up the next, kosher certified candy bar and you don’t…something’s up.

    #846142

    Nechomah
    Participant

    DY, I am interested to find out which “other products” you found with the Hershey’s N’More logo. I have just spent the last 1/2 hour looking for info on this product. I can hardly find anything. The Hershey’s S’mores is the one with marshmallows, not the Hershey’s N’More. Hershey’s site itself doesn’t mention this product at all.

    #846143

    I’ve noticed that twizzlers has on OU on it, which for me is good enough…

    However where we buy groceries the twizlers has a secondary sticker slapped clumsily on the front of the package stating it’s only kosher if this sticker is on it…

    When I compared the two packages the one with the OU and the one with the OU and “sticker” there was zero difference….

    It looks like one kashrus agency has strong armed the company into getting 2 heckshers on it. They probably told twizlers that many Jews don’t respect the OU and they need the additional hecksher….

    I have no problem with this, but if the “sticker” hecksher is more stringent, shouldn’t they have an entirely new package not just a silly sticker slapped on??

    This conundrum has left me speechless!?!

    That makes no sense. Strong armed?

    There are plenty of chassidim who won’t eat the OU, and the frummy brands do separate runs with a heimishe hechsher. I don’t know why you’d make crazy accusations when there is a simple answer that everybody knows.

    #846144

    cantgetit
    Member

    Isn’t Rav Abadi pretty much almost the only Orthodox rabbi who takes that position? Can anyone name anyone specifically who wouldn’t disagree?

    #846145

    real-brisker
    Member

    MIB – Bimichelas Kivodcha C’mon, Take it down a notch. No need to get wreckless over “mikehalls” post. I think he asked a valid questioun and wasn’t to sharp there, and deserves a valid answer, no need to scream in his face.

    #846146

    Au contraire, syag – the rude one here is the op who feels it necessary to meddle in others’ business.

    As an aside – Rabbi Abadi bases his psak on very mainstream rabbanim (did any of you ever hear of R’ Moshe?).

    Cinderella – are you really speechless that there are others who have different religious standards than you? While you may have thought you were doing her a favor, quite frankly it was none of your business.

    72 – I can’t comment on your specific experience, but there are those who hold that FDA is enough supervision, as any company that doesn’t follow their guidelines to a tee faces very large fines. As such, some rabbanim hold that that is sufficient.

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