September 13, 2010 2:49 am at 2:49 am #592334eswinterMember
With Yom Kippur falling out on Shabbos this year, please be aware of the following important halacha. Since it is Shabbos, there is a mitzva D’oraisa of kiddush as always. The obligation to say kiddush on wine is only D’rabanan (Magen Avraham) so there is still a miztva D’oraisa without wine. R’ Akiva Eiger states that one fulfills this mitzva by mentioning Shabbos in davening. But the catch is you can only be yotzaih if you have in mind to be yotzaih since mitzvos tzrichos kavanah (Mishna Beruarah). The Chasam Sofer states explictly that one should have in mind to fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush when davening on Yom Kippur. I discussed this once with R’ Forcheimer Shlita and he agreed that this is correct. Therefore, please be careful to have in mind to fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush when davening Shemoneh Esrei of Maariv on Yom Kippur. This applies to women as well. Please tell your friends so that they are not mevatel a Mitzvas Asei D’oraisah on Yom Kippur.
Kesivah V’Chasima TovaSeptember 13, 2010 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1033970YW Moderator-80Member
thank you so much for posting this
i wasnt aware of this
i owe you a great deal
Kesivah V’Chasima TovaSeptember 13, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1033971bombmaniacParticipant
by the way…just a thought…a child who eats, or a choleh, does he or she have to say kiddush before eaating? if so is there anything added? moreover, in bentching is there anything added? i know its a weird question but its always bugged me 😀September 13, 2010 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1033972blinkyParticipant
bomb- i know in bentching s/o who eats, has to say yaaleh veyavoh and its byom hakippurim hazeh by the yom tov add ins. I don’t know about kiddush- its a good question though.September 13, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1033973artchillParticipant
The Kaf HaChayim paskens that Kiddush is not said even when Yom
Kippur falls on Shabbos. But Yaale V’Yovo is added to bentching.September 13, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1033974WIYMember
Thanks and Tizku Lmitzvos!September 13, 2010 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1033975charliehallParticipant
Excellent points! Thank you.
And artchill reminds us that Jews who must eat on YK must say birkat hamazon if they eat a meal with bread and include Yaale v’Yavo. If you normally sing Shir Hamaalot on Shabat and Yom Tov you would sing it on YK as well. The Yaale v’Yavo for Yom Kippur is not usually found in bentchers but can be found in any YK machzor in the Shemoneh Esrei.
May all reading this have an easy fast!September 14, 2010 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1033976Pashuteh YidMember
There is an interesting question why we don’t make kiddush on wine and eat some bread on YK which falls on Shabbos. The shiur of eating on YK is a koseves (fig) while the shiur to be yotzei the seuda of shabbos is a kzayis which is smaller. Therefore, according to the man d’amar chatzi shiur mutar min hatorah (that eating less than a shiur is only forbidden midrabanan), wouldn’t the mitzva of seudas shabbos require that one eat a kzayis, which is less than the shiur to violate YK and hence be permitted?September 16, 2010 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1033977frum not crumParticipant
Yaasher Koach eswinter. I also had the zechus to discuss this matter with Rav Forchheimer. A few years ago, this Inyan was discussed in the Lakewood List Frum telephone directory.
The Yom Kippur “Kiddush Bracha” is found in the Maariv Shemoneh Esre (Artscroll Ashkenaz) page 88, “…Mikadaish HaShabbos v’Yisrael v’Yom HaKippurim.”October 2, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1033978tickle toe eitusMember
Yom Kippur is on Shabbos this year again.October 2, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1033979600 Kilo BearMember
If we add “veshomru bnei Yisroel es hashabbos…” before goal Yisroel, does this qualify?
Creedmoor of course holds by yom ki purim and therefore its illusory Chassidim make kiddush over a mixture of wine, diesel fuel and arak no matter when YK comes out.October 2, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1033980bezalelParticipant
The Yaale v’Yavo for Yom Kippur is not usually found in bentchers but can be found in any YK machzor in the Shemoneh Esrei.
But the Yaaleh Veyovoh in Shmoneh Esrei includes the word “Melech” which some omit in Birchas Hamazon.October 2, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1033981
PY: Chatzi Shiur Assur Min Hatorah.October 2, 2011 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1033982ItcheSrulikMember
PY: As Sam2 pointed out, we pasken chatzi shiur assur.October 2, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1033983
To all: I doubt you have to have specific Kavana, even acc. to the Shita of Mitzvos need Kavana, as long as you have Pirush Hamilos. Saying Mekadesh Hashabbos is enough to be Yotzay Shabbos Kiddush, without specifically thinking this is in place of standing there with a Kos.October 2, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1033984
Sam2 -“PY: Chatzi Shiur Assur Min Hatorah.”
He’s saying a good Pilpul, not Halacha L’maseh. Why? Because to eat the Kaziyes is only an Issur, so we should say Esay Docheh Lo’sahsay.October 2, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #10339852qwertyParticipant
i just learned in a shiur from Rabbi Shlomo Pearl that you dont make kiddush on Yom Kippur and you can be moitze it in mariv davening.
So ask your LOR.October 2, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1033986harosParticipant
look in teshuvas vhanhagos from r sternbauch- chelek beis siman 297ish that brings r a.e and chasam sofer but explains also why you DONT need to be makpid on kiddush. basically, they didnt institute it.October 2, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1033987
Health: I was saying why his Pilpul is inherently flawed. And not eating on Yom Kippur is both an Aseh and a Lo Ta’aseh.October 2, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1033988
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Regarding one who must eat on Yom Kippur, one should definitely not make Kiddush as it’s a possible blessing in vain.
Magen Avraham, Mateh Efrayim, Shulchan Aruch of the Baal HaTanya, Chayei Adam, and R Akiva Eiger (end of OC 618)
When the Avnei Nezer, R Avraham Borenstein, was a little child, his father sent him home from shul on Yom Kippur to eat.
When the boy returned, his father asked him if he made kiddush.
The boy responded that he did not. His reasoning was as follows:
Since he’s a katan (minor), he is exempt from all mitzvos. He usually hears kiddush for chinuch (education/training purposes) for when he becomes bar mitzva. However, he doesn’t plan on eating on Yom Kippur so there is no need to practice Kiddush that day…October 2, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1033989
AYC: That might work at night, but why not make Kiddush during the day if you’re going to eat? Also, isn’t the famous story about R’ Yisrael Salanter during the cholera epidemic that he made Kiddush?October 2, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1033990
How are you differentiating between the day?
There are different versions to the story and the date that it happened. In both 1860 and 1869, Yom Kippur was a Wednesday. According to the Chofetz Chaim, it happened in 1848 which was a Shabbos and also during the pogroms of Chmelnitzky and Tach v’Tat-1848-1849. This date also when the Avnei Nezer was almost 9 (5609/1848) and he was young as well in 5606/1845 when Yom Kippur also came out on Shabbos.
SO it’s interesting to wonder whether R Salanter was making kiddush in Vilna on the very same day that the future Avnei Nezer was refusing to in Bedzin, 500 miles away!
Dunno.October 3, 2011 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1033991
Sam2 -“And not eating on Yom Kippur is both an Aseh and a Lo Ta’aseh.”
If I remember correctly, we sometimes say Esay Docheh Esay V’losasay.October 3, 2011 4:59 am at 4:59 am #1033992
AYC: What Bracha L’vatalah is there during the day? It’s just a Hagafen and if you drink the grape juice it’s a Bracha you have to make anyway. At night you would have to say Mekadesh Yisrael V’yom Hakippurim if you hold there is a Chiyuv of Kiddush.
Health: It might seem that way in the Sugya in Yevamos but the standard rule quoted throughout Shas is that we don’t say it.October 3, 2011 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1033993chanieMember
ayc: Tach V’Tat occurred in 1648-1649, not in the 1800’s.October 3, 2011 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1033994
Sam2 -“AYC: What Bracha L’vatalah is there during the day? It’s just a Hagafen and if you drink the grape juice it’s a Bracha you have to make anyway.”
The Rabbonim were Goizer Kain the D’orysa. If there is no Chiyuv Kiddush at night -there isn’t during the day!October 3, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1033995
Sam2 -“Health: It might seem that way in the Sugya in Yevamos but the standard rule quoted throughout Shas is that we don’t say it.”
True, but Tosfos on the bottom of Nun -Ches:2 asks why don’t we learn out Esay Docheh Esay V’losasay from the Tzad Hashoveh from Metzora? He answers because of Sholom Bayis. This is very Shver because the Gemorah uses this to try to push off Shiluach Hakan, nothing to do with taking haircuts. That Metzora for Sholom Bayis we want to end it quicker -here we want to give him a haircut. It’s two different Asays. The haircut won’t make the Tzoras over quicker. So why can’t we learn to all over Esay Docheh Losasay V’esay? To say that since there is a Din of Sholom Bayis makes it so we can’t learn anything out of it – is a big Doechek. It’s not like Kohen where the whole Metzious is based that a Kohen is different than e/o else!
Also, this Asay of V’enesem -you can say you are Yotzay with other things, not just fasting, so it could only be a Lav here anyway.
So he has a good Kasha -why shouldn’t we eat a Seudah on
I have an answer, if you’re interested.October 3, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1033996
Health: V’inisem es Nafshoseichem only means fasting. That’s a Mefurash Gemara.October 3, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1033997
my apologies, wrote the above on Tzom Gedalya when my brain does not work the same without food, a humbling experience!
Thank G-d won’t be posting on YO”K, will try to practice a “day to disconnect” on the other fasts be”H…October 3, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1033998
Sam2 – Ok, what about my other point?October 3, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1033999nitpickerParticipant
Regarding Rav yisroel Salanter making kiddush:
This fact is disputed, and there contradictory versions of the
story each perportedly traceble to people who were there!October 3, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1034000nitpickerParticipant
also: In practice this question rarely applies since a person who must eat on yom kippur will generally eat only very small amounts
at one time, not enough to be kiddush b’makom seudah.October 3, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1034001bh18Participant
thank you so much for detailing the halacha and the way to fill it!! i am a single mom and do not always know of halachos and do not even realize or think to ask on many issues. you have done my sons and myself a huge favor and mitzvah and it should only be for a zechus for you and yours.October 4, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1034002sam4321Participant
Rabbi Akiva Eger says to make kiddush by day,but at night it could be a bracha l’vahtala .October 4, 2011 5:30 am at 5:30 am #1034003
sam4321 – But he must hold that you have to make Kiddush at night when YK falls out on Shabbos. See above.October 3, 2014 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1034004potpieMember
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