July 7, 2013 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #609974pixelateMember
?July 7, 2013 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #964771SecularFrummyMember
It would certainly hamper one’s ability to find a proper shidduch for his/her children.July 7, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #964772WIYMember
Why not? Maybe if you are a Rav or a big talmud chacham you may feel it more appropriate to fill a cup and not lean over and drink from the fountain. Just make sure it works before making a brocha.July 7, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #964774Biology (joseph)Participant
Of course it is proper. Why is this even a question?July 7, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #964775TheGoqParticipant
There is nothing improper about it but i still wouldn’t suggest it just for health reasons, when you think about the hygiene habits of those who may have used it before you it should cause you to think twice.July 7, 2013 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #964776Torah613TorahParticipant
If you’re in Brooklyn and believe in copepods, it might be a problem.July 7, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #964777Biology (joseph)Participant
Torah613: Copepods aren’t a matter of believing in or disbelieving in. They exist in the water supply, something that isn’t in question.July 7, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #964778147Participant
On a day like today being over 90F, it is a great way of fulfilling a Mitzwah Asseh mi’de’Orraisso of “veNishmartem Me’od leNafshoseichem”.July 7, 2013 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #964779
Mekublani mibeis rebbi that it’s undignified to bend over and drink like a horse from a trough.July 7, 2013 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #964780SaysMeMember
nope, too many germs. I’ve watched too many dog owners let their dogs drink from water fountains to ever want to drink from one againJuly 7, 2013 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #964781Sam2Participant
Biology: I’m assuming she meant whether you think there is a Halachic issue with drinking unfiltered tap water.July 8, 2013 12:21 am at 12:21 am #964782
curiosity, you need a new Rebbi. Show him shoftim perek 7.July 8, 2013 1:12 am at 1:12 am #964783tro11Member
I think it’s worse to relieve yourself in a urinalJuly 8, 2013 1:29 am at 1:29 am #964784distractedParticipant
Well, if her husband says, “Everyone back in the car. We need to go already!” and her five children are running in line behind her saying, “Mommy, I need another drink!” a mother should know that if she does not care of herself, nobody else will take care of herself for her. Enjoy that drink of water! It will be very refreshing! Only don’t ask to stop for the bathroom again in ten minutes!
Did anyone google how many germs are there in a water fountain? Or can you really get sick from drinking from one?July 8, 2013 1:46 am at 1:46 am #964785jbaldy22Member
supposedly the water from a water fountain has more germs than a public toiletJuly 8, 2013 1:51 am at 1:51 am #964786distractedParticipant
oooh! yuck! no wonder so many children come home sick from school!July 8, 2013 5:25 am at 5:25 am #964787
I’m not sure what’s in Shoftim perek 7 because I was in yeshiva, not seminary (ask popa maybe), but I think my Rebbi was saying it’s undignified for a ben Torah, not for the hamon am.July 8, 2013 9:35 am at 9:35 am #964788
I’m not sure what’s in Shoftim perek 7 because I was in yeshiva
Well isn’t that a sad indictment of the yeshiva system (or at the very least, your yeshiva)…
So, just so you know, Shoftim 7 starts with Gidon having just been chosen to lead Bnei Yisrael against the Midianim. He recruits an army but H’ tells him that it is too large and will not showcase the miracle suitably, plus many of the soldiers are idol-worshippers. So Gidon performs a test. He takes the soldiers to the river-bank and tells them to drink; those that kneel down are discarded as idol-worshippers, those that “lapped like a dog” were kept. So, ironically, the action you say is “undignified for a ben Torah” is exactly how Gidon determined who was a Ben Torah.July 8, 2013 9:52 am at 9:52 am #964789
Not having gone to seminary is not an excuse for am harotzes. If you are not sure what is in shoftim perek 7, look it up.July 8, 2013 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #964790golferParticipant
ubiq, you are absolutely right.
If we follow curiosity’s strange logic, we’re going to have sem graduates paskening for us. (I think we already had a thread on that topic.)
But can you try to do a better job spelling am harotzes? I can’t quite do it myself, but I know there has to be a better way.July 8, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #964791happieMember
Curiosity’s Rebbi is 100% correct about drinking like that.
And to all the smartalecks, Curiosity’s learning of Gemora is on a much higher level than learning Nach.July 8, 2013 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #964792heretohelpMember
If he or she is thirsty.July 8, 2013 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #964793yehudayonaParticipant
As the Southerner who had the delusion that he was a mixture of apples, nuts, wine, etc. said, “Ahm charoses.”July 8, 2013 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #964794golferParticipant
LOLOL , Yehuday.
But I’m still thinking there has to be a better way…July 8, 2013 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #964795jewishfeminist02Member
You are probably looking for something like “amaratzus”. But I have news for you: it’s not a real word. “Am ha’aretz” in the singular makes sense. If you want to pluralize it, it should be “amei ha’aretz”, not the popular and incorrect “amaratzim”. “Amaratzus” as a noun form is just silly. Think about it. What would the literal translation of that be?July 8, 2013 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #964796
ubiq and Just my hap… lack of bekius in Nach, an am haaretz does not make. I trust my rebbi enough to not make stuff up without a source, or unless he heard it from his rebbi (who was one of the gedolei hador until his recent passing). When I learn Torah I spend most of that time focusing on Shas, mussar, and halacha. Nach is great, but it’s not going to tell you how to keep mitzvos properly, and it’s more important to memorize halacha than to memorize what’s in perek 7 in Shoftim.
I decided to look it up and you are actually 100% wrong. Hashem tells Gideon to choose the ones who lap the water from their hands (the Mahari Kra even explicitly writes “standing up”) and to dismiss the ones that bend over to drink directly from the stream. The Metzudas Dovid, Ralbag, Rabbeinu Yeshaya, Baal Haturim and more, explain that this is because those that got down on their knees to drink showed an indication that they were used to bowing to the Ba’al. Sounds to me like you just proved my rebbi’s point. So before you slander my rebbi or my yeshiva maybe you should reconsider who taught you how to learn. I rest my case.July 8, 2013 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #964797
Curiosity, your first point is debatable. HoweverPride in not learning nach because “you didn’t go to seminary” does make you an am haaretz, if you don’t know at the very least look it up. Which you have done, congrats.
Sadly though you got it wrong. Those accepted by gidon were thus who fell on the floor. Kneeling was unacceptable. And if your rebbe said not to kneel to drink you’d he right
At any rate none of them said “sorry gidon we can’t drink this is a public fountain”
Jf2 it is a great word used to mean ignorance. I agree about the spellingJuly 8, 2013 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #964798jewishfeminist02Member
“Jf2 it is a great word used to mean ignorance. I agree about the spelling”
It is used to mean ignorance. Unfortunately, those who use it display their own ignorance, since it is completely made up & you won’t find it in any dictionary.July 8, 2013 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #964799yichusdikParticipant
Not learning sefer shoftim is perhaps a good explanation why achdus and ahavas yisroel isn’t much in vogue. You can’t advocate something if you don’t really know what am yisroel looks like without it.July 8, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #964800always runs with scissors fastParticipant
A very amusing comical sight would be, an yeckish clean mentsch pre sterilizing the water fountain before he uses it. he opens his briefcase or tallis bag and carries a little brush for scrubbing and he sprays it with lysol for disinfection.
But seriuosly, to the OP, its only appropriate if one is thirsty. according to health principles by Ramban, one should only drink when he is thirsty and as much only as the body requires.
Next, where do i remember learning that there were a group of men who were led to water to drink and the ones who would bend over like a chaya would be considered in 1 category and those who cupped their hands to bring the water up to their mouths would be in the second category. Tanach? So, depending on what category you want to be in, maybe it pays not to bend over the water fountain?July 8, 2013 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #964801rebdonielMember
One of the major differences between how traditionally some Ashkenazim and Sephardim conceive of talmud torah is the attention placed on the study of Mikra. In turn, there are practical ramifications of this on how differing religious imperatives, ethics, and emphases are developed. For instance, Nach was essential limud for Rav SR Hirsch, and for Hirschians, ethics and prophetic religious ideals are essential, whereas for those who believe (as did R’Tam) that Talmud study encompasses Mikra, there is less of an open and cultured religious emphasis as among Hirschians and Sephardim.July 8, 2013 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #964802
It wasn’t pride, it was sarcastic humor. The meforshim in my Nach (which I named) clearly state the soldiers who were accepted were standing up to drink – I don’t know which meforshim you have in your Nach. The problem would be with bending over to drink, and nobody is saying drinking from a public fountain by bringing the water up to your mouth is a problem. You aren’t making sense, and you sound bitter.July 9, 2013 12:41 am at 12:41 am #964803
language is dynamic. deal with it. I’ll bet it is in dictionary of yeshivish. How do you say ignorance in (rabbinic) Hebrew?
It is beautiful that you are learning mefarshim, however start with pesukim. Pasuk 5 identifies 2 ways to drink from a bush of water: lapping it “like a dog” and kneeling down to bring it to your face. There is no standing method, nor is it possible (unless the persons hands are really short). The passuk 7 and 8 tell us that the lapping method is preffered. On this the meforshim you quote explain because kneeling is a sign of avoda Zara, and lying down and lapping “like a dog” is preffered.
There is no standing method offered nor is it possible without either bending hands or face to water
My only point in bringing up this incident is to point out that no one suggested to avoid drinking from a public fountainJuly 9, 2013 1:09 am at 1:09 am #964804mewhoParticipant
try having your own bottle of water with you if possible.
but if you feel you need a drink on a hot day, you should have one.
people dehydrate much quicker than they think possibleJuly 9, 2013 4:23 am at 4:23 am #964805
ubiq- If there is one thing I am sure about, it is that the universal mesorah for limud haTorah, in all but perhaps the Karrite communities of Apikorusim, is not to create our own interpretations of psukim. Meforshim are much smarter than you and I, and they tell us how to understand the pasuk correctly. That being said, you are arguing with almost all the meforshim on the page. If you have another chazal that interprets the pasuk differently, please share it. Otherwise, you can’t baselessly argue with chazal to support your own opinion… well… I guess you can, but you’d be wrong.July 9, 2013 4:55 am at 4:55 am #964806
By the way, even if you don’t want to look at the meforshim, the very next passuk says, “lapping with their hands to their mouths.” Klall u’prat, baby, klall u’prat…
And yes, I know why you brought it up. I’m arguing with you because, if I remember correctly, my Rebbi did say it’s not lechatchila for a ben Torah to bend over and drink from a fountain. I don’t know why you say nobody says like that when I just quoted you a bunch of meforshim who do.July 9, 2013 5:22 am at 5:22 am #964807ultimateskierMember
A little random but speaking of waterfountains…. Mrs. Jackie Bitton says a story about a guy in yeshiva where the students had a culture that when a friend was leaning over the waterfountain they would slap them on the back causing them to spit it all out. One day this guy is walking by and eveyone looks pretty similar from the back in white shirts and he slapped a guy on the back and he screams out in pain and the bochur realizes it was the Rosh Yeshiva! He is waiting for a mussar speech or suspension and felt soooo bad especially since the rebbi had back issues as it was. The Rosh Yeshivah didnt budge and just said, “what is the bochur waiting for. This position is very painful for me but i will stay like this till the bochur is in his classroom.”
The rosh yeshiva never knew who it was untill many years later when he couldnt bear the guilt and came back to yeshivah to tell him.
I guess its a raaya….July 9, 2013 9:55 am at 9:55 am #964808
curiosity im not arguing on the meforshim. Based on what you are saying though the meforshim are arguing on the pesukim.
But ok, lets ignore the pesukim which specificly mention lying down to drink (R”chl). Please explain to me practicly how you (mis)understood the incident:
The people approach a body of water, their hands are about 3 feet or so away from the water, their face 5 feet or so, how exactly did those accepted get the water up to their face , what is the correct next step? (Hint it is not “I’m sorry gidon I cant drink because “it’s not lechatchila for a ben Torah to bend over and drink from a fountain”)
(Just to be clear according to the pesukim, which obviously the meforshim dont argue on) they lay down and “lapped like dogs this is beferesh in the pasuk and I have not seen anyone argue besides you)July 9, 2013 10:00 am at 10:00 am #964809
Curiosity – I never called you an am ha’aretz, what I did say was that it is a little curious that you should be so proud of not having learned Tanach, and proud because you did not learn it because you were in yeshiva. I mean, these are HKB”H’s messages from Him Himself through his prophets to all humanity for all time and you’re proud not to have learned them?! You’re proud that your yeshiva education means you haven’t bothered learning what H’ said to us?! HKB”H says “Here, these are the things I am making sure you know. This is how I am telling you how the world works and how you should live your life. These are messages from Me to you that are so important I have created a mechanism called prophecy were I communicate to human beings so that they may tell people what I want and write it down so that all future generations may learn from it and know.” Curiosity says “Nah, not me – I learned in yeshiva…”
I mean, what are you going to do when you get upstairs after 120? Tell H’ “Well I didn’t bother with the bits You said, but I can kler 7 tzedadim in the issur of hezek which have no real nafka mina l’halacha…”?!
As far as your quick looking up of a piece of Tanach (that you never knew existed just a few hours ago and are now apparently an expert in…). You’re wrong. First of all, my comment was about the licking/lapping (not the kneeling) – you compared drinking from a water fountain to a horse lapping from a trough and said it wasn’t for bnei torah, the pasuk says that those that “lapped like dogs” davka were the bnei torah. Anyway, as you yourself said, those that knelt were disqualified as it showed that they were used to kneeling (and davka at the edge of the water, as kneeling to one’s own reflection was a way of avodah for one of the avodah zarahs of the time – see medrash) to avodah zarah. Nobody kneels to water fountains…
Furthermore, those that lapped from their hands were lav davka standing up – nowhere do the pesukim or mefarshim mention this, and as ubiquitin points out it is physically impossible. They had to get the water from the river, therefore they either bent over, cupped the water in their hands and licked it off (much, I may say, like someone drinking from a water fountain) or lay on their front, put their lips to the water and pushed it in with their hands (which would make the dimyon to a dog licking water extremely understandable if you’ve ever seen a dog drink from a river…). I double-checked the mefarshim you quoted and not one mentioned a word about standing, so which “meforshim … clearly state the soldiers who were accepted were standing up to drink”? The mefarshim explain why those that knelt were unacceptable, the kneeling is mefurash in the pasuk and not something that ubiquitin ever argued about. Calling him an apikores for disagreeing with something you decide to shtip into a pirush is a bit out of line…July 9, 2013 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #964810
ubiq – I fail to see where it says “laying down.”
jmh – I’ll quote my earlier statements for you:
1) “it wasn’t pride, it was sarcastic humor.”
2) “the Mahari Kra even explicitly writes “standing up.””
3) “…Karrite communities of Apikorusim” did not say ‘ubiq communities of Apikorusim.’
And yes, through theoretical investigations of Newtonian mechanics and countless scientific experiments, I have discovered that one can bend down to scoop up water, then stand up to drink it while erect. Amazing, I know…July 9, 2013 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #964811zeeshanaayan07Member
I always drink cocacolla.. anyone elseJuly 9, 2013 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #964812
Curiosity – First, it’s still lamentable that you can joke about it. Second, I have not seen the Mahari Kara, but based on your misrepresentation of the other mefarshim involved I shall reserve judgement on it until I do. Third, comparing ubiquitin’s opinion to that of the Karaites is essentially calling him an apikores. Fourth, your sarcasm is noted as is your lack of knowledge of fluid dynamics. Fifth, none of that has a single bearing on the licking/lapping issue that I was talking about and which is the only issue which is really shayach to water fountains as kneeling/not kneeling is irrelevant; if we’re quoting ourselves then let me repeat what I said before: “Nobody kneels to water fountains…”July 9, 2013 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #964813Sam2Participant
Curiosity: There are T’shuvos about making a Brachah when you drink from a water fountain. I don’t recall any recommending not to use them due to a lack of Kavod. (But some recommend not to use them to be safe about the Brachos thing.)July 9, 2013 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #964814
Curiosity it is in pasuk 5July 9, 2013 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #964815cherrybimParticipant
In addition, Halacha states that one may not drink from a water fountain which is also a statue so that it appears the one is kissing the statue when drinking.
Nowhere is it indicated that it is not proper to drink from a water fountain. In fact, numerous Torah institutions have water fountains on their premises for those who are thirsty.July 9, 2013 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #964816
Sam2, you’re correct to take a different approach because the pasuk is stam not a rayah either way. A yeshiva guy shouldn’t apply derech eretz from what was appropriate 2000 years ago for soldiers in the wilderness, during a war or in a survival situation. Similarly, I never saw a yeshiva guy take home an aishes yefas toar from the grocery store… heheh.
So, I’m not even 110% sure that I heard it, (it’s possible that it was only raised as a question but that there wasn’t an affirmative answer) but on the 99% chance that I did hear it, it was NOT that it’s assur, it’s that it is beneath the dignity of a recognized ben Torah to bend over a fountain to drink, and that it’s more appropriate to use a cup and drink like a mentsch. Also, this wasn’t said in context to yeshiva high school guys or young beis medrash bochurim, but intended to refine the sensitivities of the altar bochurim who would soon be getting smichah.
In a similar vein, I have always heard (this time 110% sure I did) that it is inappropriate for a ben Torah to drink beer from the bottle/can, but rather he should pour it into a cup. I don’t recall seeing this in tshuvas anywhere either. Just like drinking from a fountain, it’s just not one of those things that’s a “halacha” – assur or mutar- but rather a refinement of behavior that applies to those who should be sensitive enough.July 9, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #964817
ubiq, I read posuk 5. I don’t see the words “laying down” anywhere, however, according to the Maharo Kra, there are three types : Those who did kriya to drink -posul, those who were melakek like a dog – also posul, and those who were melakek beyadam el pihem (posuk 6) – only these were the kosher ones. Perhaps the Mahari Kra’s second category referred to laying down, but he describes them as posul. Please read posuk 6 that says “lapping with their hands to their mouths,” and read the Mahari Kra on paukim 5 and 6 – It’s explicitly not like you. Also, please read Rashi on the words Melakekim Beyadam, “Ein ze derech kriah, kelokek bilshono.” Ie: not like a dog.July 9, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #964818
Curiosity – So I had a look at the Mahari Kara and, guess what? It’s not quite as you make it out to be. He starts off with the assumption that it is impossible to lap like a dog without kneeling, he therefore says that there were actually three groups – 1. those that knelt and somehow drunk (not explained how), 2. those that knelt, put their face to the water and lapped directly from the river, 3. those that somehow gathered water in their hands, stood up and then lapped from their hands. This is difficult for a number of reasons:
1. The pasuk is not mashma that there were any more than 2 groups – those that knelt and those that lapped. All the other mefarshim you quoted learn this way (Radak, Metzudos, Rashi, R’ Yeshaya).
2. It is entirely possible to lap without kneeling, one can bend over or lie flat, as I described above.
3. The difference between the first 2 groups is not explained. How did the first group drink, and why would the pasuk split them into two groups if they were both disqualified for the same reasons? It should simply have been enough to say that anyone who knelt, for whatever reason, was disqualified. Why split them?
4. The mechanism he proposes is not really possible. Try it for yourself – put a bucket of water on the floor, bend over or crouch down, cup some water in your hand and try standing up straight without spilling almost all of it. Then try drinking. You ain’t gonna get much.
Even if you wish to hold on to your Mahari Kara, the other mefarshim clearly do not learn like that (as it would require 3 groups where they have just 2) and if you want someone who be’feirush disagrees then the Ralbag says that those that lapped like a dog were chosen as it showed that they were fearless and not afraid to put their faces in the water so clearly they were not standing up…
Anyway, as I said before, even according to the Mahari Kara they were lapping from something – an action you described as being unfit for a ben torah. I’ve said it before and I’ll saying again – it’s not about the kneeling, no-one kneels to a water fountain.July 9, 2013 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #964819
1) The slight to one’s kavod that I alluded to would be with drinking while bent, not bending down on its own. As I said in my very first statement, “it’s undignified to bend over and drink like a horse from a trough.”
2) I know you aren’t expecting to shlug up the Mahari Kra (I believe he is the father of the Rada”k) with your personal kashas, almost all of which I can personally already think of terutzim for.
3) Nowhere in the other mefarshim did I find it mention that the ones “lapping” where bent, hunched, or laying down. On the contrary, it sounded like they say farkert.
4) It matters not if even one mefaresh says like me, and a hundred are to the contrary. You can no longer use that posuk as a raya against what I (think I) heard my rebbi say. That’s besides the comment I made to Sam2 of why it’s not a raya either way.July 10, 2013 2:16 am at 2:16 am #964820
you are kinda missing the point (though to be fair we both got sidetracked). None of them said “Im sorry I dont drink from fountains” That is my point
There the problem was suspicion of having done A”Z by those who knelt. (Or even prostrated themselves according to some miforshim) According to ALL miforshim drinking from a public fountain is ok. Even arguablly with kneeling/prostrating if it isnt a sign of AZ. At a public fountain when the person leans over slightly is your reaction, hmmm I bet he is used to leaning over his head in prayer to A”Z? Assuming that isnt your reaction, then there is no issue with drinking from a water fountain
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