Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money?

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  • #611975

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    A Shadchan relative of mine went to a Vort where they were the Shadchan and the father of the girl asked for the Shadchan’s address and said he will “send something”. The Shadchan assumes if he meant to send a check, hed have given it at the Vort.

    Is there a tactful way to say that the Shadchan prefers money (no amount stipulated or demanded)? The Shadchan has way too much clutter already. Isnt giving Shadchanus “siman bracha” for the couple?

    #1003162

    son
    Member

    Don’t know about simon brocho, but as far as I know if there’s an umdena that a shadchan gets paid a certain amount, they’re mechuyav to pay it unless your relative is mochel.

    #1003163

    interjection
    Participant

    Any people don’t give until the wedding. When people say ‘give something’ frequently (obviously not always) they are satin they will give an unspecified amount of money.

    #1003164

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    AFAIK Shadchanim in frum communities get $1,000 per side, minimum, these days. My relative IS Mochel on Shadchanus for their BT/Gerim Shidduchim, because theyre not familiar with the Halacha/Minhag of Shadchanus. Both sides here are FFB.

    Just wondering, do poor people feel they dont have to pay Shadchanus and are patur with a candy dish, etc? Although Ive heard from a well knwn Shadchan that they got less from their wealthy Shidduchim and more from their Shidduchim involving people who dont have any money.

    #1003165

    oomis
    Participant

    I never hear there is a “certain amount” but rather that shadchanus should be SOME amount of money preferably. There is such an inyan, and it is for the mazel of the couple that the shadchanus should be paid.

    How could you be mechayeiv a poor parent to pay a “certain amount” to a shadchan? Whatever amount it is, should be accepted graciously. If someone is a professional shadchan, then he or she should be upfront about the amount that is expected, as this is their parnassah. But to a relative or friend?????? pro or no, I cannot imagine they expect “real” shadchanus. My friend recently made a shidduch for a relative and they gave her shadchanus (unrequested by her). She gave the money to the couple for a wedding present.

    #1003166

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Al pi din, a shadchan needs to be paid according to common custom, i.e. within the range that’s considered the “going rate”. Most of the time, a non monetary gift doesn’t come close.

    There probably is no tactful way of telling this to the mechutanim, though. Also, as others have pointed out, he may indeed intend to send a check, and didn’t give at the vort for any number of reasons.

    #1003167

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Oomis, you must be a big tzadekes (I assume youre a woman), and very out of town…. even on Shidduch websites like SYAS, which is not farfrumt or heimish or New Yorky by any standards, the site generates an email to recently engaged couples, recommending that each side give $1,000. This doesnt make anyone a millionaire, being that most SYAS and other Shadchanim dont make more than one Shidduch a year after a years worth of days and nights of unsuccessful attempts.

    ….THEN PEOPLE COMPLAIN WHY NO ONE WANTS TO BE SHADCHANIM AND AS A RESULT LOTS OF SINGLES ARE GETTING OLDER AND OLDER!

    After a years worth of days and nights of unsuccessful attempts, most are human and want more than a candy dish.

    #1003168

    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis, you must be a big tzadekes (I assume youre a woman), and very out of town’

    I wish I were, (correct assumption), and nope. People sometimes don’t like to be shadchanim for the same reason that most people do not like getting paid solely by commission. There is no guarantee of a decent payoff for each potential sale, unless it goes through. So if one goes into shadchanus with the idea of making big bucks, that probably is not the best hashkafa for such a holy endeavor. Neither do I believe that a professional shadchan should be given a “candy dish.” But most poor people do not have a spare $1000 lying around, and if they have more than one child, what are they supposed to do?

    #1003169

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Why is the Shadchan’s time and effort less valuable than the caterer, musicians, and the florist’s time, etc most of whom get paid with much profit after having spent way less time? In cases where there is no payment made to a caterer, musician, and florist, etc. its understandable.

    Big bucks? $2,000 a year? C’mon.

    #1003170

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oomis, what should a poor person do about all of the other wedding expenses (most of which are not a halachic obligation as shadchanus is)? Should the jeweler, caterer, musician, photographer, dressmaker, etc. get something only a bit more valuable than a candy dish?

    What’s a poor person whose transmission breaks down supposed to do – give the mechanic a candy dish?

    #1003171

    mom12
    Participant

    I redd shiduchim to a lot of ppl.

    those that ask how much I charge, I answer I don’t have a specific amount. But whatever it is I would like it in the form of money as apposed to somekind of gift..

    It goes over quite well.

    #1003172

    Sure, if they ask, it is appropriate to say that the shadchan prefers money. However, if they don’t bring it up– yes, they really should be paying the shadchan, but it is not appropriate to ask for payment.

    Also, I’m sure there is something in between “clutter” or a “candy dish” and a check for $1,000.

    Also also, I would really be wary of making assumptions as to what the family does or doesn’t intend to do based on a vague comment made at the vort.

    #1003173

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Also also, I would really be wary of making assumptions as to what the family does or doesn’t intend to do based on a vague comment made at the vort.

    Possibly, but in the past this Shadchan has gotten $50 and $100 checks, in one case from comfortable people where the wedding was held in a fancy establishment… yes, I know… I know…. you never know who paid for the wedding…and you cant judge.

    Interestingly though, from experience throughout the years, most of those who have paid the typical average to generous amount, have been the poorer simpler people, and it was paid at the Vort, and we’ve heard the same from other Shadchanim.

    #1003174

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Anyone should feel comfortable asking for watever they feel their services are worth. If the plumber feels his services are worth $60 an hr, then that is his fee. If he feels it is $160, then let him charge it. He will learn soon enough what rate the target market can/will bear. Same with shadchan. if your relative wants $1000 for a successful shidduch made, let him/her stipulate that up front.

    #1003175

    bookish
    Participant

    The difference between a plumber/caterer/musician and a shadchan is that the other services state up front what they charge. Imagine telling your caterer that you’d like a steak dinner, and at the end of the event being presented with a bill for $300/person. It wouldn’t fly.

    So, I agree with the poster above. The shadchan should either state his/her rate up front, or should not expect any sort of payment, and graciously accept whatever (if anything) is given.

    #1003176

    walton157
    Member

    @DaasYochid: You are correct. A mechanic should get more than a candy dish.

    Some Shadchanim might be in the business to make money and don’t care if the ‘match’ is a good ‘match’. I think this is our fellow CRs are saying.

    @bookish: If shadchunus is a business then the shadchan should state upfront how much they charge.

    When I have my apartment painted, the painter tell me upfront how much he is charging. No guessing, no bad feelings. It’s business.

    #1003177

    oomis
    Participant

    Why is the Shadchan’s time and effort less valuable than the caterer, musicians, and the florist’s time, etc most of whom get paid with much profit after having spent way less time? In cases where there is no payment made to a caterer, musician, and florist, etc. its understandable.

    Big bucks? $2,000 a year? C’mon. “

    If that is the shadchan’s SOLE source of income (as it typically is with the other professionals whom you mentioned), I would agree. And if the shadchan spent as much time training to do his/her job as a musician, I might also agree with you. I still believe they should be upfront at the outset of what their expectations are. And in the case of a non-pro who just happens to think of a nice shidduch for a family member or friend, that just doesn’t sound right to me at all. The zechus of the mitzvah should take precedence over expectations of getting a huge monetary reward, though I think SOMETHING should be given even in that case.

    #1003178

    frimet98
    Member

    Take whatever you get and accept it graciously. Don’t be greedy. Be happy you brought the couple together. Talk of money is demeaning.

    If you’re in it for the money get a different job.

    Frimet

    #1003179

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It makes no difference whether it was stipulated up front or not. It makes no difference whether the shadan has another source of income or not. It makes no difference whether the shadchan was motivated by mercenary considerations or not. If someone wants to disagree with me based on halachic sources, please do. But this is a halachic issue, and you folks are writing as if it’s about your personal feelings.

    Oomis, you wrote so beautifully in the “moral or halacha” thread about how our morals come solely from the Torah. You should know that the Torah has what to say about hilchos shadchanus as well.

    #1003180

    Logician
    Participant

    “If that is the shadchan’s SOLE source of income (as it typically is with the other professionals whom you mentioned), I would agree. And if the shadchan spent as much time training to do his/her job as a musician, I might also agree with you.”

    So if a musician is rich, you owe him less ? And if he’s a prodigy who spent minimal time training, you owe him less ? Do you give a broker a smaller percentage if they were matzliach to help you 1-2-3 ?

    This is not Olam Habah. One almost never earns for their efforts, but for their results.

    The point has been made above that Shadchanus is halachically recognized as being money owed, according to accepted standards. Your plumber also has a mitzvah to help you – I hope you don’t tell him that when he presents you with the bill.

    Your feelings are commendable – but not valid when foisted on others, who want what is rightfully theirs.

    And everything x2 for frimet. Any particular reason this is not an acceptable profession ?

    #1003181

    oomis
    Participant

    Your feelings are commendable – but not valid when foisted on others, who want what is rightfully theirs.”

    And that is what they should state before doing the job! And I will be honest with you, and say that were I financially well-off, which I am not unfortunately, and I were in a profession that could be of help to someone, I WOULD do it for much less or for a chessed for free. My husband, whose parnassah is teaching, has tutored children for free when they could not afford tutoring. It cannot always be about the money. Let the shadchan state his/her fee outright and not make people feel shocked later on. Until relatively recently, I had no idea shadchanim have a set shadchanus that they expect to get. I thought it was a matana.

    #1003182

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Hee hee…..If everyone felt that O T H E R people should be working

    t i r e l e s s l y

    at Shidduchim with little or no expectation, then caterers, musicians, and florists would, as a result, probably have lots more free time to be Osek in Shidduchim themselves… because theyd have less work because of less weddings!!!!!!

    Pollyannaish thoughts my friends, oomis and frimet! You should be dictating to YOURSELVES how to improve in YOUR Mitzvah observance! Dictating to others isnt as effective and isnt praiseworthy.

    pollyannaish – def.: pleasantly (even unrealistically) optimistic

    To those who are being Osek in Shidduchim with little or no expectation: You ought to find a way to clone yourselves, because everyone knows the Klal needs more, not less, Shadchanim!

    #1003183

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oomis, whether or not a shadchan should state their expected compensation is something we can discuss, but do you agree that regardless, the money is owed?

    If I called an electrician to the house and was under the mistaken impression that the job would cost $50, but don’t ask, and then he fixed my outlet and charged $100 (which is in fact standard), can I pay only $50?

    #1003184

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    FYI:

    Link removed. This is from an archive on the Aish.com website.-100

    Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with a shadchan requesting payment for services rendered just as an attorney or accountant has every right to demand payment for services.

    BROKERAGE FEES

    Although it sometimes sounds strange, shadchanus fees are halachically categorized as brokerage fees. Just as one pays a real estate agent for arranging a transaction, so too one pays a shadchan for making the arrangements necessary for the engagement and marriage to transpire. Therefore, we must first explain the halachic sources for brokerage fees.

    BUT WHAT IF I DIDN’T ASK HIM?

    People easily understand that if you approach a broker or agent, you thereby obligate yourself to pay him for his services. However, some people assume that if you did not solicit the service, are not obligated to pay. Does this distinction have any basis?

    HOW MUCH DO YOU OWE THE YORED?

    You are required to pay the yored as much as you have benefited. If he performed work for you that would normally require you to hire someone, you must pay him the market rate for hiring someone for this work (Gemara Bava Metzia 76a; Sma, Choshen Mishpat 375:1).

    WHY MUST ONE PAY THE SHADCHAN?

    When a single person or the parent of a single person asks someone if they know of any marriageable prospects, they are asking them to perform a valuable service on their behalf. This service has a market value, just as any other brokerage or recruiting fee has a market value (Rama Choshen Mishpat 264:7).

    #1003185

    interjection
    Participant

    Being a shadchan is hard work, besides that there is risk involved. With every shidduch you run the risk that, at best it will be a huge waste of time, and at worst the shadchan will gain a bunch of enemies. It is something that not everyone could do. I personally, cannot be a shadchan. I have called mothers and shadchanim with suggestions but I have always told them to leave me out and pretend it didn’t come from me. I am too afraid if giving the wrong advice to the dating couple so they would end up getting engaged, realizing it’s not for them, and instead have a broken engagement (or divorce) on my account. So I tell them the name and leave it up to the professionals to decide if it makes sense.

    I know oomis doesn’t approve of children learning in kollel but any parent who is going to figure out how to shell out $500+ a month, can figure out how to thank the shadchan with this one time fee of 1000. Also, at the least a wedding costs 10k per side so 11k is not that much more.

    #1003186

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I have to agree with oomis. I also agree with frimet.

    I don’t think a person can consider being a shadchan as being a job. We have an obligation as Jews to facilitate marriages and if you know of a good shidduch idea, I don’t think you are entitled to decide to withhold it pending a good price. It is NOT like a profession, where you would have the option to not take on the job.

    As far as finding $1000 or not giving a candy dish or paying $1100 instead of $10000, I think some people may have a lot to learn about other people’s lives and struggles. If I can’t find $5 for my kids class gift to someone, how can you tell me I NEED to come up with that kind of money.

    To me, $50 is a fortune, if I “found” you $100 you should know I missed out elsewhere. What a crazy concept that facilitating a marriage that was ordained by Hashem himself ENTITLES you to money I need to feed my kids.

    #1003187

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Syag, you just made up your own hashkafah which is against the halachah.

    #1003188

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Market Value. The halacha is clear, that is undeniably true.

    What is not clear, is the defined market value of this “service”. Clearly some people feel the market value is a candy dish or some other tchachka while others feel it is $1000 or more. I’m sure in some neighborhoods the value is more clearly defined than in others. I’m no expert in choshen mishpat in general or the laws of shadchanus in particular, what does the halacha say one is required to pay when there is no clearly defined market value for a certain service as seems to be the case here? Lets take it one step further, exactly how is this “service” called “shadchan” performed? What services can be reasonably expected? Is there possibly a correlation between services rendered and the value of the service provider? Is it based on time (say $50 an hr and time spent is calculated), is it based on frequency of interaction, the number of services performed (say, intros and phone number swapping, with post date hand holding an added service with gretaer market value)? Perhaps once the fair market value is determined, we can apply the halacha. Until then some maintain market value is a candy dish while others $1000, to avoid all confusion or any potential claims, the shadchan should stipulate their fee up front.

    #1003189

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “What a crazy concept that facilitating a marriage that was ordained by Hashem himself ENTITLES you to money I need to feed my kids.”

    The same gemara that tells us about the bas kol that calls out, bas ploni liploni, also tells us there is bas kol that calls out sadeh ploni liploni, in which case, using your argument, real estate commissions are just as crazy. Are they?

    #1003190

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    DY – I have know clue what you are talking about

    #1003191

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I agree that a shadchan should get the “going rate” for shadchanus. It doesn’t seem to be clear though that the going rate is $1,000. If this shadchan has done several shiduchim in the past and gotten $50- $100, perhaps that is the going rate. Shadchanim do work hard, and maybe the going rate should be more, but who says it is?

    #1003192

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Syag,

    If the halachah says you are obligated to pay something, then you do NEED to pay it, financial hardship notwithstanding.

    #1003193

    besalel
    Participant

    what is starting to bother me so much about the heimish community is how far detached from reality we have become that we have lost sight of basic human decency sometimes. I sometimes wonder when did it happen that basic human decency was replaced by our heimish subculture. I find it in complete lack of taste for a shadchan to demand money that even debating the issue is in poor taste. for so many people to be gung ho about insisting that shadchanim must be paid “like caterers and florists” is just nauseating. can you imagine what someone from the outside would think when looking at us? that all we care about is money, money, money. even on mitzvis we look to make money. what ever did happen to us? but i guess when no one protested esrogim at hundreds of dollars and matzos at dozens of dollars per pound, sheitles at thousands of dollars – we started down this slippery slope where it is okay for people to think that not only can they make a living off of mitzvis but become rich off of it. what ever happened to doing things because it is a mitzveh? what ever happened to us?

    #1003194

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    If this shadchan has done several shiduchim in the past and gotten $50- $100, perhaps that is the going rate

    BTs and BT’s children were the ones who gave that amount and it was accepted happily. Never from FFB families.

    #1003195

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Right. Shochtim, mohelim, rebbeim, esrog dealers, seforim store owners, sofrim, etc. should all work for free. How nauseating that they make a (meager for the most part) living.

    I’m sorry for the sarcasm, but the truly nauseating thing going on here is seeing how many people think their emotions trump halachah.

    #1003196

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, who establishes the market rate? Who established that BT and BT’s children have one rate and FFBs another? Is the BT rate some sort of discount off the list price?

    #1003197

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    …what ever happened to us?

    If the Sforim Hakdoshim tell us this is how its done, then this is how its done.

    Do you really think that the Average Joe and Jennifer will start redding Shidduchim if those who were getting paid for it, stop getting paid and stop doing it? Me no think so.

    Theres a reason Rabbonim tell us to pay.

    You know the people walking on the main streets of your town doing and saying funny things…. r”l. Sometimes it feels like Shadchanim are a mm of an inch away from that, after dealing with difficult situations and difficult people. Thats how frustrating redding Shidduchim is.

    Theres a reason Rabbonim tell us to pay.

    #1003198

    interjection
    Participant

    I agree that people should make shidduchim because it is a mitzva and not for the money. However, I am someone who most probably could not be a shadchan, although I would love to be one. I don’t want to be a shadchan for the money, which is why I have called mothers and friends with suggestions and told them if they were interested to go find a shadchan and I have also made suggestions to shadchanim and told them they should take charge if they thought it made sense.

    Being a shadchan is a service. If one wants to use that service, there is a fee. If you don’t want to use the service, there are other ways. The child can scout out eligible partners by him/herself or a friend or relative can set them up. If someone wants to use a shadchan, it comes with a price.

    #1003199

    nfgo3
    Member

    Schadchan should say to relevant parents: “You know, chossons/kallahs don’t grow on trees.” Alternative: “I didn’t do this for my health.”

    #1003200

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Hooray for besalel!

    DY – of course I NEED to pay something. But that is very different than you thinking you are ENTITLED to money that I don’t have. I can give whatever halacha dictates will fulfill that obligation. And you will say, “Thank you”.

    apashutayid – your analogy is more perpendicular than parallel. sorry.

    Some of you are so used to crazy that it almost sounds normal.

    #1003201

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    DY – regarding your next post, there is a HUGE difference between someone thinking of two people to match up, and someone selling merchandise that requires materials, advertising, shipping, packaging, inventory, rent, utilities . . .shall I continue. There is literally no comparison where you are trying to make one. Maybe take a deep breath.

    #1003202

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Syag, no difference halachically. Some of my examples were services anyhow.

    As far as feeling entitled, it’s all a gift from the RBS’O anyhow, and we shouldn’t feel entitled, so I don’t know why you’re taking it out on shadchanim.

    #1003203

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    DY – I wasn’t “taking it out on shadchanim”, I was answering a bunch of posts on a shadchan thread that discussed shadchanim feeling/being entitled. it even lists how offensive it is when someone gives a shadchan ‘stuff’ instead of money, or gives them only $100, unless it’s a BT which would make it okay.

    Does that answer your question?

    #1003204

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    anyone else mix up Syag and DY? they dont even look that similar…

    cud be i just dont know them that well

    #1003205

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No. If you would have the same attitude toward a social worker (or someone in any other profession) who wanted market level compensation, then I wouldn’t think you are taming it out on shadchanim. But I don’t think you would.

    #1003206

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, this has been discussed in the CR before. Here is a post from a thread which someone may want to read through in its entirety.

    Many attempts were made for the Kallah. How would you proceed?

    Another post/thread:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shadchanus-gelt#post-278586

    #1003207

    squeak
    Participant

    No, there is no tactful way to be gauche.

    #1003208

    besalel
    Participant

    just to set the record straight: i dont believe that giving a shadhchin $1,000 to show your hakuris hatov is too much if you can afford it. i just think its absurd to think of shadhunis as a business. it is disgusting. its like being a kidney broker. it is sick. if chas visholim i needed a kidney and someone made a shiddich for me i would be’ahava give that person a reward but kidney brokers are scum. if we, in our world, cannot see that, something has gone awfully wrong with us.

    #1003209

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    To all those who think Shadchanim shouldnt get paid any specific amount… start getting a taste of it NOW. Go red a Shidduch and report to us here how its going every day.

    Lets not be armchair know it all Shadchanim!

    Go do it NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW!

    #1003210

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    i just think its absurd to think of shadhunis as a business. it is disgusting.

    Do you think it’s disgusting that the halachos are in the Choshen Mishpat section of the Shulchan Aruch?

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