Is Zionism STILL the Yetzer Hora?

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  • #617065

    That’s the real question

    #1133050

    Mammele
    Participant

    Would you rephrase it as: Is Zionism STILL a tool/weapon of the Yetzer Hora? Or maybe: Is Zionism STILL A Yetzer Hora?

    Or do you want to leave the question exactly as is, which implies that all the other Yetzer Horas one has, even in Chutz, are non existent or pale in comparison to Zionism.

    It’s definitely a YES to both my versions.

    #1133051

    Yes to the first two, not sure about the third.

    #1133052

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Always and forever, the devil Heeself, complete with pointed tail.

    #1133053

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Zionism is the epitome of bitochon in HKBH and anti-Zionism is the tool of the Soton.

    #1133054

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“Zionism is the epitome of bitochon in HKBH.”

    Are you kidding?!? I think you’re very mixed up!

    The Zionism that is practiced today, is based on Kefirah. That is why there is a revolt on things like Shmiras Shabbos. Eg. like in Tel Aviv. Also, that’s why Tel Aviv is the most Gay friendly city in the world!

    #1133055

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Health: Zionism has nothing to do with what you are writing. It is the urgency of returning to our homeland and rebuilt it.

    #1133056

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Zionism… is the urgency of returning to our homeland and rebuilt it.

    You make it sound as if you think the state of israel is Moshiach.

    #1133057

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: do you know whether it is not?

    #1133058

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course. I can’t believe you think it’s a question. Do you still daven for Moshiach, or do you no longer, because he already came?

    #1133059

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: No one knows how the ultimate geulah will arrive. Check the Rambam in his “Jad Hachazokoh” and even more in Pirush Hamisnyos,perek chelek , and you will be gobsmacked what he thinks. Of course, the same goes for the Amoro Shmuel.

    I am not saying I know that “Moshiach’ has already come to us. However, I am pretty convinced that we do live in “jemos hamoshiach” and that the medinah is a manifestation of this. Don’t take that from me. I heard this personally from the Ponevezer Rov zz’l

    #1133060

    simcha613
    Participant

    I think it’s pretty clear that the Hakamas Hamedinah is at least the beginning of the geulah. One of the signs of the impending geulah is kibutz galuyos which has happened/is currently happening. Almost 50% of Klal Yisorel now lives in Eretz Yisroel and Medinas Yisroel with its right of return is a large reason for that. So unless you believed the Jews have to leave Eretz Yisroel before the geulah happeneing, it’s hard to deny that this is hatchala lege’ulasa.

    #1133061

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not clear at all, unless you’re a navi.

    #1133062

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, I’m sure he did say that we live in yemos Hamoshiach. I’m even more sure that he did not say that the medinah is Moshiach.

    #1133063

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- You’re right. I spoke too strongly. But kibutz galuyos in its literal sense is happening. Klal Yisroel is returning to Eretz Yisroel. How much credit goes to the Medinah and how this is connected to the geulah is a judgment call.

    #1133064

    squeak
    Participant

    I’m fairly sure that the hakomas hamedinah is not the beginning of the geulah. In fact, I believe that if not for the enormous zechusim of all the yeshivos and kollelim in EY today, the Land would have already spit you out. Do you think the geulah is about returning to a geographic location? It is about returning to Hashem and seeing Him in the open. Let me know when that starts.

    #1133065

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Whose judgement do we trust?

    #1133066

    Sam2
    Participant

    squeak: It’s been happening for a long time. Secular Israelis are so much more cognizant of HKBH and Yiddishkeit than the average Jew has been for close to 200 years. They’re not all Frum, but the direction is incredible.

    #1133067

    simcha613
    Participant

    Squeak- Of course geulah is not only about returning to a physical geographic location. Which is why the geulah will not be complete even if every single Jew returns to Eretz Yisroel. But part of the geulah is returning to the physical geographic location of Eretz Yisroel and that is currently happening.

    #1133068

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    WOW! Squeak and others: Are you listening to what you are writing? the geulah does NOT mean returning to a “physical geographical location”? This is pure kefirah. We daven every day , every shabbos and every yom tov to return to our ancestral home and this is NOT the geulah we crave for?? WOW! If anything is pure kefirah, it is this notion that we do not crave for a physical return to Eretz Yisroel.

    #1133069

    The Queen
    Participant

    ???????? ???? ?????? ??????

    (slow hartzig music)

    #1133070

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The physical part is easy. Be”H when the true Moshiach comes, bimheirah, we’ll all hop on the next flight.

    Meanwhile, we are all in golus, even those physically in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1133071

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- Why wait?

    #1133072

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????

    #1133073

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thete are plenty of reasons to wait, but if it works for you to be in Eretz Yisroel, that’s great. Just don’t think it necessarily has any connection to the geulah.

    #1133074

    The Queen
    Participant

    DY: I am hoping to Chap a ride on an eagle.

    #1133075

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do they give out peanuts there?

    #1133076

    The Queen
    Participant

    There is a book by Yisrael Neuberger, I forget the title, it’s his vision of how it will be when Moshiach comes, with eagle rides, (very soft feathers, nice ride) for meals add your own imagination…

    #1133077

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- Do you really believe that? The physical return of Klal Yisroel to Eretz Yisroel has no connection to the geulah? It’s like we’re so used to the idea of being able to return to Eretz Yisroel, we try and conjure up ways to lessen its significance. If you went to the European Gedolim 400 or 500 years ago and even suggested that the mass return of Klal Yisroel to Eretz Yisroel has no connection to the final geulah, I would guess that you would be laughed right out of the Beis Medrash.

    #1133078

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think that’s a bad guess.

    #1133079

    Basmelechpenima
    Participant

    is Zionism still the yetzer hara? It makes my blood boil to think that people would even entertain that question!! Just the fact of living in Israel is a huge mitzva by itself not to mention kibutz galiot which is supposed to happen before moshiach comes!! And just because the state of Israel was founded by non frum Jews doesn’t mean they are any less Jewish then any frum person out there. @daasyochid you think that physically moving to Israel is the easy part?! Did you realize that the only reason it’s even possible to live or go on vacation there is because the the incredible, selfless soldiers of ??? who defend and protect the state and every single person inside of it even the ignorant ones who are agains them!!

    #1133080

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Don’t confuse Zionism with the mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1133081

    Basmelechpenima
    Participant

    I’m not confusing them. They go hand in hand. The only reason that you’re able to fulfill the mitzva of living in Israel is because of the Zionists. Is it really right of you to not give hakaras hatov to those people?

    #1133082

    The Queen
    Participant

    ” It makes my blood boil “

    Calm down. It isn’t good for your health.

    “Did you realize that the only reason it’s even possible to live or go on vacation there is because the the incredible, selfless soldiers of ??? who defend and protect the state”

    Do you think that soldiers can protect the state? It’s Hashem who is protecting Eretz Yisrael. Don’t be fooled.

    #1133083

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    People lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists.

    #1133084

    The Queen
    Participant

    0

    #1133085

    Basmelechpenima
    Participant

    @thequeen I’m not fooled, I know hashem sent the idf as a shaliach to protect the state of Israel. If hashem didn’t want them to be successful they wouldn’t be but just look at the history of the creation of the state, it is nothing short of a major miracle. I understand that it is all from hashem but I also recognize that hashem uses people like the Zionists to carry out his plans. And @daasyochid Israel was basically a wasteland before the Zionists built it up and now that they did it is a place of refuge -law of return- for all Jews no matter how frum or what type of Jew they are. All I’m asking is that you do the mentchlach thing and give some hakaras hatov.

    #1133086

    Avi K
    Participant

    Queen, Rav Ovadia said taht without the IDF there would be no yeshivot. Obviously Hashem gives them the strength but they do the hishtadlut. The Zohar says that Elisha asked the widow to borrow utensils and supply some oil because a beracha cannot come on emptiness.

    #1133087

    The Queen
    Participant

    Basmelechpenim: People like Dassyochid were taught from birth to hate Zionists. It is their Torah. No one is going to change that ever. This is what they learn in school. They actually have tests about it in school. (I saw the test).

    Nothing you will say is going to change that. It will be more beneficial for all sides to concentrate on loving your fellow Jew, regardless of your differences.

    If what you are so passionate about is bringing all Jews to Eretz Yisrael, and Moshiach, then do yourself a favor and leave it alone. Talk about something you can agree on.

    #1133088

    The Queen
    Participant

    Avi K: Who am I to argue with Rav Ovadia?

    #1133089

    Joseph
    Participant

    Queen: You crossed a line there. DY was not taught to hate anyone, let alone it being his Torah. Don’t make assumptions about people, especially if you don’t know who you’re talking about. Okay?

    #1133090

    simcha613
    Participant

    DY- “Don’t confuse Zionism with the mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel. “

    This I think is one of the biggest problems with anti-Zionism. In an effort to separate Orthodox Judaism with Zionsim (which while I disagree, I understand. There are many problems with Zionsim), the anti-Zionists have separated Orthodox Judaism from Eretz Yisroel as well. Because Zionists have prioritized Eretz Yisroel so much (possibly too much), to counter that Anti Zionists have delegitimized Eretz Yisroel (definitely too much). It has come to the point where people have even suggested that the mass return of Klal Yisroel to Eretz Yisroel might not have anything to do with the geulah! Crazy!

    #1133091

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    The Queen: Yo write vey contradicting messages. On the one hand, you praise the medinah and on the other hand you dismiss the army. You don’t seriously believe that without the army,we would be safe in Eretz Yisroel?

    #1133092

    The Queen
    Participant

    Joseph: “You crossed a line there. DY was not taught to hate anyone, let alone it being his Torah.” I’m sorry if I misread him. He seems from his post anti (a hater of)Zionist. My apologies.

    #1133093

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Accepted.

    Your formula was all wrong, BTW.

    Zionism ? Zionist, and anti ? hater.

    It would be like saying someone who is anti chillul Shabbos (which I assume you are) hates mechallelei Shabbos (which I assume you do not).

    #1133094

    The Queen
    Participant

    Rabbi: I am not praising or dismissing anyone. I am simply stating facts the way I see them without taking sides in this debate.

    The way I see it is:

    First of all, whatever happens and happened in Eretz Yisrael is Hashem’s will. Nothing happens without the will of Hashem. That is premise number 1.

    The Israeli army is fighting to protect Yidden and the soldiers deserve our tefillos. The soldiers are putting themselves in harms way for people living in Meah Shearim too.

    Having said that: The only reason the army can protect the yidden, is because Hashem wills it. Naturally with the amount of enemies surrounding Israel, Israel should’ve been gone by now. In reality Hashem is fighting the wars for us.

    The anti Zionist group, had a point in the 40’s and 50’s when the Zionists were kidnapping Teimene babies, and cutting their peyos off in absorption centers. In those days the Zionists were definitely trying to create a G-D-less country, and the Anti Zionists took on the role of the Maccabees with the cry of Mee LaHashem Ailye.

    Today, most of the old guard Anti – G-d Zionists are dead. There still are some of them like Tommy Lapid. However, most of the yidden in Eretz Yisrael even the frei yidden, believe in G-D, Fast on Yom Kippur and are looking for direction. Most are tikonos shenishba and it behooves frum Jews to be them mekarev, not to hate them.

    What I disagree with from both sides of this debate is:

    The Pro Zionists have made yishuv Eretz Yisrael into the first and foremost mitzvah in the Torah. The fact is that if it would be mandatory for yidden in diaspora according to the Torah, to live in Eretz Yisrael, you wouldn’t find Gedolim in Diaspora and you do.

    The anti Zionists have made anti Zionism their Torah. And while it had a place in the past, it is time to get with the times. It isn’t relevant anymore. Yes there are Frei Yidden in charge of the Medina. However, as mentioned most of them in year 2016 are simply tinokos shenishba. The time to hate them is gone. It’s time to be them mekarev to yiddishkeit.

    #1133095

    The Queen
    Participant

    Regarding the pro Zionists: I have a problem with parents taking young children to live in areas which are clearly dangerous in their zeal for Yishuv Eretz Yisrael.

    #1133096

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thank you, Joseph.

    #1133097

    Health
    Participant

    Queen – “Yes, there are Frei Yidden in charge of the Medina.”

    Yes, this is the problem with living there!

    You’re assumption of “The anti Zionists have made anti Zionism their Torah”, is not me! And I think other Anti-Zionists are like me! When you grow up you’ll stop making generalizations.

    #1133098

    The Queen
    Participant

    Health: I’m probably double your age. My best friend belongs to your shita as well as my close neighbor and family members. I know the “shita”. I’ve been called “agidisten tziyonisten” by frum women who don’t know me, but grew up with the same chinuch you received.

    The point being it is time to end the hate fest and come together, whatever our differences so we can finally bring Moshiach.

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