January 22, 2013 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #607907
If the initial results hold up (they don’t always), it looks very bad for the Torah world. THe hareidi parties didn’t gain, the anti-religious “Yesh atid” did well (roughly equal to the two hareidi parties). At best, Netanyahu will form a coaltion with the Hareidi parties but give them almost nothing (perhaps agreeing that yeshiva students who don’t go to the army won’t be thrown in prison, but nothing more – such as no special funding for yeshivos or the hareidi community). At worst, he’ll dump the hareidim and accept Lapid as a principal partner. Lapid’s platform isn’t all that different from Likud, other than the strong anti-hareidi language, thus by agreeing to conscription (which most Likud members support) and cutting most funding to the frum community (which most Likudniks won’t object to), Netanyahu will get a coalition partner that will give him a free hand on all the other issues.January 23, 2013 12:05 am at 12:05 am #935103truthsharerMember
1) When you say Torah world, you mean Charedi.
2) Yesh Atid is not anti-religious, they might be anti-charedi but more likely is anti-handouts. They are now one of the most diverse MK’s. More worrisome with them winning is their make a deal with terrorists platform.January 23, 2013 12:19 am at 12:19 am #935104susheeMember
Dov Lipman, the so-called “frum” agitator from Beit Shemesh who has been making a ruckus against the Torah Jews, got in as an MK as (the anti-religious) Yesh Atid’s #17.January 23, 2013 12:57 am at 12:57 am #935105
The only real difference between Likud is Yesh Atid is the anti-Hareidi platform of Lapid, which most of Likud-YisraelBeitenu supports. Lapid and Lieberman are very similar ideologically. Also remember that the leaders of Bayit Yehudi (whose don’t especially like hareidim, and probably would have no problem being in a secular government unless that government actively persecuted hareidim) and the Livni party – all have strong historical ties with Likud.
I’ld suspect the most likely result will be Likud offering to from a “Hareidi-free” coalition that cuts off funding for all Hareidi institutions that don’t cooperate with conscription, with the alternative being Hareidi supporting a government that sharply cuts funding to frum institution and strongly encourages enlistment (with a cut off of government funding to those opposed to conscription) and that the “bone” the Hareidim might have to settle for will be to allow anyone to claim to be a “religious objector” to serving in the army not to mention receive financial benefits from the government.
Of course, the anti-zionist Hareidim (who don’t vote, don’t accept government money, and would love to “monkey wrench” the medinah) are probably delighted, waiting for the moment to put up posters say “See, we were right all along”.January 23, 2013 12:57 am at 12:57 am #935106147Participant
Thanks to the Satmar stance which cost the religious party many critical votes, they have simply reenforced my conviction to the authenticity of true Zionism, and the concept of Reishis Tzemichas Geuloseinu, and my more meticulous observance of Yom ha’Atazmaut & Yom Yerusholayim, and that I shall spend more money this year at the forthcoming YU Seforim Sale.
This in addition to my unexpected decision to take an extra trip to Israel for Purim, to help Medinas Yisroel & El Al boost their economy.January 23, 2013 2:46 am at 2:46 am #935107YentaParticipant
Your a fool – the Torah world gained bigtime.January 23, 2013 2:56 am at 2:56 am #935108
If the Charedi parties are not in the government they lostJanuary 23, 2013 3:29 am at 3:29 am #935109147Participant
If the Charedi parties are not in the government they lost
& anyone who didn’t vote for them lost their Cheleq in Olom haBo, as per the Pesak of the Rosh Yeshiva of Ponovitz Yeshiva.January 23, 2013 3:41 am at 3:41 am #935110
In a parlimetary system, parties in the opposition are powerless to do anything except trying to bring down the government with a no-confidence motion.
It isnt like the US where the minority party has some power, In Israel they have noneJanuary 23, 2013 4:14 am at 4:14 am #935111susheeMember
In the U.S. the minority party in Congress has very little power. (Except the Senate filibuster; in the House they are powerless.)January 23, 2013 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #935112DaMosheParticipant
147: Oh please. Maybe anyone who uses the Ponovezh Rosh Yeshiva as their Rav and didn’t listen to him will lose their chelek. But most people don’t rely on him, and therefore are not bound by their psak.January 23, 2013 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #935113
akuperma – In spite of your doomsday predictions about the Charedim, I don’t think it’s reality. Lapid and Mizrachists (BH)
can’t be in the same coalition because they have opposite views on the peace process. BH wants expansion of settlements and Lapid wants to give in to the arabs and the US. They both want to force Charedim into the army, but that’s not enough to sit together in the same Gov. So what Bibi will do – what he wants. He also believes in what he says in the past. He is Not one of these politicians that changes his mind completely to be in power.
He wants to expand settlements just a little, not like BH (as much as possible) and not like Lapid (not at all). He also wants to keep having more Frumme in the army by expanding the Frum programs that exist -he’s not interested in widescale drafting of Charedim. So he will play Lapid and BH against each other. The one that comes closest to his demands that I just mentioned will be picked. He will then get the Charedi parties to join up – and they will because there won’t be a draft.January 23, 2013 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #935114
147: Enjoy it while it lasts. If a significant number of hareidim resist (as opposed to “evade” or “dodge”) military service, and the Palestinians realize they have an opportunity – you’ll have a one-state solution in the near future. The only way to avoid a confrontation is if the government gives up the idea of rounding up yeshiva students, and settles for cutting off funding (which will have no impact on non-zionists who don’t accept zionist money).
Health: Lapid’s views on security are very similar to Likud – keep some settlements, ditch the rest. Also, Lapid like the Hareidim is largely a one-issue party that can be “bought” — give Lapid what he wants (a Hareidi draft with few loopholes) and he’ll compromise on other issues. Lapid might also agree to recognize “religious objections” (he’s big on respect for international legal principles”) to military service especially if coupled with restricting government funding to veterans.January 23, 2013 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #935115
In the US minority parties get seats on committies and things like that and have some influence there. In a parliment the only power they have is the speak in the parliment how evil the ruling party is.
Lapid is in, Bennett not so sure, It turns out the Bennett and SARA Netanyahu dont like each other and have a personal feud of some sortJanuary 23, 2013 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #935116gavra_at_workParticipant
In the US minority parties get seats on committies and things like that and have some influence there. In a parliment the only power they have is the speak in the parliment how evil the ruling party is.
Actually, the big difference is locational represenatation. In the US, the member represents a specific location, and has to vote for what they wnat (or be voted out). This makes them:
1: responsible to someone other than the party
2: Needing to work together with their region on regional interests (look at all of the NY representitives, both R & D, push for Sandy relief).
3: More willing to compromise, as the “party” will not remove them (although this is beginning to happen as well, especially on the republican side. Joe L. proved to the Democrats that it doesn’t really work).
4: Looking out for themselves instead of the party. This allows them to “cross party lines” when they feel it to be the right thing for their district.January 23, 2013 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #935117lakewhutParticipant
i hate israeli politics it makes no senseJanuary 23, 2013 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #935118
akuperma -“Health: Lapid’s views on security are very similar to Likud – keep some settlements, ditch the rest. Also, Lapid like the Hareidim is largely a one-issue party that can be “bought” — give Lapid what he wants (a Hareidi draft with few loopholes) and he’ll compromise on other issues. Lapid might also agree to recognize “religious objections” (he’s big on respect for international legal principles”) to military service especially if coupled with restricting government funding to veterans.”
I disagree with your pessimistic attitude. I think he is closer than you think to Bibi’s belief of expanding the national service in the framework that exists. I don’t think he’ll demand an all out draft of the Charedim – which btw will collapse the State of Israel due to the social unrest. Maybe the Charedim can’t collapse the State by themselves, but the Arabs are looking for such an oppurtunity and together they both will turn over the State. I think Bibi and others know this and will do their best to avoid such a situation.
Also, I think his main demand is the peace process, Not Charedim army service. This was his first thought about why there needs to be a new party – from the Jerusalem post a few months ago:
I’m not a Novi, but this is the way I see things. He’ll compromise on the Charedi draft, but not on continuing to build new settlements. BH wants the Charedi draft, but might compromise on it, but they won’t compromise on not having more settlements.January 23, 2013 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #935119BresleverParticipant
For once I agree with Health. Yair Lapid ran and won his seats on a social agenda, vis, shielding the middle class from budget cuts and tax increases and seeking to lower housing prices in Tel Aviv etc by shifting the focus on settlement building.
This is one condition he has set for entering a coalition, the second is to “increase the share of the burden” and the third is to restart negotiations with the PA.
He has also said he will not be part of a right wing government, so at least one center-left party will need to be included. Shelly has already ruled herself out, so that leaves Livni and Mofaz. It’s possible Mofaz won’t have passed the threshold after all the remaining votes (IDF, double votes etc) are counted, but even if he does, his two seats aren’t enough for a stable coalition. That leaves Livni. Livni also has stated she will not be in a coalition with Bennett.
So both Lapid and Livni have ruled out Bennett which leaves…the hareidim. What to do about the draft? First focus on what issues they have in common, social issues primarily and perhaps also building issues, then come to a compromise.
Regardless I see no reason to worry. As much as many here would love to see another hareidi-free government to say “I told you so!” it’s not likely to happen. For further proof, already Moshe Gafni (!!) has stated he will sit down and talk with Yesh Atid. Moshe Gafni. Just think about that.January 23, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #935120HaKatanParticipant
147, it’s not exactly the mark of a chacham to base one’s world-view of right-and-wrong on what “Satmar” does.
Perhaps learning the inyan is a better idea.January 23, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #935121golferParticipant
Breslever, “Just think about that.”-
It doesn’t require much thought. It’s simple math. Yesh Atid got 19 seats. UTJ got 6, maybe 7. Of course Gafni is dying to talk to Lapid. I don’t know what your exclamation marks are so surprised about. Gafni will talk to the pope if it gets him into the coalition, where he can keep an eye on the funding he wants streaming in his direction.
A better question to think about would be: Does Lapid have any desire to speak to Gafni?January 23, 2013 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #935122
“anyone who didn’t vote for them lost their Cheleq in Olom haBo, as per the Pesak of the Rosh Yeshiva of Ponovitz Yeshiva.”
147, That is absurd. I don’t know if the Rosh Yeshivah of Ponovitch really said that or not, but if he did there is no way he meant it literally. It is merely hyperbole.January 23, 2013 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #935123
Lapid has publicly said that he would do everything in his power to strip the Orthodox of control over marriage, divorce and conversion. That is by far the greatest danger he poses. It would increase the number of mamzeirim in klal Yisroel a thousandfold, chas v’shalom.
All the Orthodox parties have to fight this tooth and nail. I don’t understand how an Orthodox rabbi can be on his ticket.January 24, 2013 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #935124
benignuman -“Lapid has publicly said that he would do everything in his power to strip the Orthodox of control over marriage, divorce and conversion.”
There’s politics and there is reality. Israel politics is the number 1 country in the world which has the most distance between the two. All these Israeli politicians want are power and money. What he will try to pass through parliment is that a case of two non-Jews or two Toeivaniks getting married will legally be able to marry, divorce, etc. I don’t think he wants to, let alone be able to, take the Jews out of the Rabbanut hands.January 24, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #935125
I agree with Health. I’ve heard him speak as well, and he doesn’t come across as a fantasist. And I think he has said he wants to end Chareidi, not Orthodox monopoly. He does wish to introduce more of a cross section of Orthodox Rabanim into the Rabanut, and there are plenty of talmidei chachomim who fit that bill, which while eroding chareidi monopolies in some areas, maintains a Torah standard. He may not be a friend of the religious, but I don’t think he cares to make himself an enemy, though that might be pinned on him by others.
Any responsible family checks yichus on its own in any case, so introducing “civil” marriages for the circumstances Health outlined may not be as damaging as you think.
The danger for chareidi parties is that they may have backed themselves into a corner by putting their red lines out there very early. Now Bibi can create a solid center-right coalition of 68 between Yesh Atid, Likud Beitenu, Yisrael Beitenu, Hatnua, and maybe Kadima’s 2. If you were a politician in his shoes, wouldn’t you rather meet the demands of 3 or 4 partners rather than 6 or 7? Where does that leave Shas, and where does it leave Degel? Sitting with Shelly and Zehava in opposition, I think, and that’s not a good place to be when every other party except the Arabs thinks differently about “sharing the burden”.January 24, 2013 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #935126
I saw a clip of him speaking at Conservative assembly of some sort. He clearly said that he wants to give Conservative and Reform the power to marry, divorce and convert.
My fear is not that some Chareidim will now marry mamzeirim, my fear is everyone else. It will create a tremendous split and prevent ba’alei teshuva (who will want to become frum if they won’t be able to marry).
If I am allowed to provide a link to clip, I will.January 25, 2013 2:21 am at 2:21 am #935127
I wanted to add that the latest “informed” speculation coming from friends in the press in Israel is that Bibi wants a very broad coalition so no single party leaving could topple the govt. On that premise, I expect he and Lapid will agree to include Shas along with the parties I mentioned above (assuming Shas agrees to some concessions on “sharing the burden”), but exclude Degel Hatorah. But who knows, really?January 25, 2013 3:00 am at 3:00 am #935128
Yichus: Friends in the press? There is a JPost story up all day already that makes the exact speculation you just pronounced.January 25, 2013 3:20 am at 3:20 am #935129supermeMember
i think we shld split up sefer tehillem that it all works out li tovah wat do u guys think?January 25, 2013 6:53 am at 6:53 am #935130
To lakewhut: I love Israeli politics. It makes no sense.January 25, 2013 11:51 am at 11:51 am #935131
LKY – yes. Including two journalists @ the Post, actually, among others.January 25, 2013 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #935132
The prevailing wisdom now is the following coalition
Hatnua (Tzipi Livni)
Shas is seen as a litle more reasonable on the draft and might compromise while UTJ its a red line in the sand and not give in.
Many of SHAS voters are not Charedi, so this makes sense so the leadership might be hearing from the grass roots, very few UTJ voters are non charediJanuary 25, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #935133
ZD -Still in your dream world about a draft? Read the news -Bibi wants Shas and Shas and UTJ are making a bloc. There will be more Frum army volunteer programs. But there won’t be a draft, in spite of your animosity towards Charedim.January 25, 2013 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #935134supermeMember
Noone is with me to split up tehillem at least over shabbos?January 25, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #935135NaysbergMember
Shas is run on the word of Chacham Ovadia. Period. And Rav Ovadia has taken a hard-line in the sand on no draft.January 25, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #935136
Naysberg -“Shas is run on the word of Chacham Ovadia. Period. And Rav Ovadia has taken a hard-line in the sand on no draft.”
Don’t bother ZD with the truth. He has no comprehension of this idea that people are Mevatel their Daas to Rabbonim. A big Maaleh amongst Sefardim and I’m not Sefardi. They respect Rabbis, even if they aren’t religious.January 25, 2013 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #935137
Bibi wants Shas and not UTJ. Since he doesnt need Shas to make 61, Shas will have a choice to go with UTJ and be in the opposition or join the government.
I should have been clearer, Shas is seen as more moderate and willing to make a deal on national service(Which is seen as acceptable and the likely compromise instead of the army) which UTJ is not.January 25, 2013 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #935138
A big Maaleh amongst Sefardim and I’m not Sefardi. They respect Rabbis, even if they aren’t religious.
There is a reason for this, Sefardic rabbanim tend not to be as harsh to non and less religious than Askenzic Rabbanim. You will never see Sefardim throwing stones for exampleJanuary 25, 2013 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #935139YentaParticipant
zahavasdad – You obviously have never been to a Hafganah in Yerushalayim. The Sefardim throw rocks like pros. And they know exactly how to start fires. Go to Kikar Shabbos and watch the show.
They are animals.
And let’s not mention the spousal abuse….. Ever see one of them beat their wives?January 25, 2013 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #935140
UTJ and Shas announced today that they are forming a bloc and will negotiate together as one.January 25, 2013 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #935141
You obviously have never been to a Hafganah in Yerushalayim. The Sefardim throw rocks like pros. And they know exactly how to start fires. Go to Kikar Shabbos and watch the show.
They are animals.
And let’s not mention the spousal abuse….. Ever see one of them beat their wives?
Talk about Moza Shem Ra.
Reminds me of an ex-girlfriends family. They were Israelis and they used to say A Frank is a Crank. I never got exactly what that meant, but I know it wasnt something nice about Moroccans.
Now I have Moroccan Neighbors and they are some of the nicest people you will mee. They are always trying to do the right thing and are very friendly.January 25, 2013 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #935142
Can we avoid saying Lashon Hara on large segments of the Jewish population?January 25, 2013 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #935143FerdParticipant
zahavasdad…. Wow… What a hippocrate you are.
“There is a reason for this, Sefardic rabbanim tend not to be as harsh to non and less religious than Askenzic Rabbanim. You will never see Sefardim throwing stones for example.”
You are a self hating Jew. You hate and despise charedim with sinas maves. Over and over in the CR.
And the nerve you have calling that Motzei Shem Ra!! And what about your comment?? Slandering every Ashkenazic gadol.
It’s time the mods got rid of you from spewing your hate here.January 27, 2013 3:40 am at 3:40 am #935145mddMember
Zahavasdad, the reason for the Sefardi hisbatlus to Rabbonim in not what you mentioned.March 7, 2013 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #935146About TimeParticipant
Reporter’s Notebook: Lapid’s the tail. We’re the dog.
By LAHAV HARKOV
Yesh Atid privately updated reporters on coalition talks, and Yair Lapid denied it all on Facebook. Is this new politics?
Yesh Atid and Bayit Yehudi formed an alliance in coalition talks, and have been saying for weeks that they want to focus on “essential, meaningful” policy issues, not who gets which ministry. However, the clock is ticking and there’s a little over a week left for a government to be formed. It made sense that they’d get to the “dirty” stuff at this point, and that a party official would confirm it.
Why, then, did Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid publicly deny it all?
In the film Wag the Dog, reporters breathlessly cover a war between the US and Albania, using a heartbreaking clip of a sad and beautiful peasant girl.
The war is a ruse, manufactured by a political spin doctor portrayed by Robert DeNiro and a Hollywood producer played by Dustin Hoffman, in order to cover up a presidential .. scandal. The peasant girl is an American actress in front of a green screen.
“Why does a dog wag its tail? Because a dog is smarter than its tail. If the tail were smarter, the tail would wag the dog,” the movie’s tagline went.
We’ve been wagged.
On Wednesday night at a quarter to midnight, I got a call from a top Yesh Atid official. The kind of official that spends hours with Lapid each day. The kind that has been feeding me and countless other reporters ostensibly accurate information for months.
I repeated the information back to make sure I understood it correctly, and then tried to contact a Bayit Yehudi spokesman for confirmation, to no avail. I was left with a dilemma: The newspaper was going to print at any minute. Should I run with the story or ignore it? ..
An hour later, it was too late to stop the presses a second time when the same Yesh Atid source e-mailed me Lapid’s Facebook status on the issue.
“I saw the stories that Naftali Bennett and myself are giving an ultimatum to the prime minister on the issue of portfolios. It isn’t true, and it isn’t dignified. Netanyahu forms the government, and no one is giving him an ultimatum. This is a transparent attempt to distract from the real issues,” Lapid wrote.
Bennett also took to Facebook to deny the existence of a ultimatum, writing “there is nothing like that. We’re working hard to help the prime minister form a new government that will work for the people of Israel.” Dumbfounded would be the best word to describe my reaction. Was I crazy? Did I misunderstand the Yesh Atid source? A tweet from Ha’aretz reporter Jonathan Lis describing the same experience and calling Lapid’s party “pathetic,” confirmed my sanity, but didn’t calm my nerves.
It occurred to me that this is all semantics. Last week, Lapid took to Facebook to say he isn’t boycotting haredim; however, he does not want to sit in a government with Shas or UTJ. In this case, he wants his bloc to get the foreign and finance portfolios, or else, but he won’t use the word ultimatum.
The next morning, the Yesh Atid official confirmed as much, saying just because the parties are aligned and making demands, doesn’t mean it has to be called an ultimatum.
“So what you told me last night is correct?” I said, repeating the information she had given me 10 hours earlier.
The response was an emphatic yes.
So this is new politics: Not using loaded words, like ultimatum and boycott, but doing exactly what they entail, while covering it up by talking about values. Lapid played us all; the tail wagged the dog. At least now we know the rules of the gameMarch 7, 2013 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #935147
To About Time: I honestly could not make head or tail of the article you posted by Lahav Harkov. I don’t know whether this reflects on my ignorance or the quality of Mr./Ms. Harkov’s article. What is clear is that Mr. Netanyahu is not especially popular, that the Israeli electorate is sharply divided, and that a majority of Israeli voters want to diminish the taxpayers’ support of Chareidim and the influence of Chareidim over life in the State of Israel. There is also growing impatience with the cost to the taxpayers of supporting and defending the settlers, and the non-cash costs to the citizens of the State of Israel of the ongoing stalemate with the Palestinian Authority.
I think many voters want to try a new tack or a new posture with the PA, though they (and I) are skeptical that the PA can or will move forward in implementing a 2-state resolution of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
As for the Chareidim, they should seriously consider a modification of their “business model,” i.e., heavy dependency on government support. A Chareidi tzibur with independent income and wealth would have much more influence on Israeli society than in currently does.March 7, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #935148
nfgo3 -“As for the Chareidim, they should seriously consider a modification of their “business model,” i.e., heavy dependency on government support. A Chareidi tzibur with independent income and wealth would have much more influence on Israeli society than in currently does.”
This I agree with. I hold like the Shittos that don’t take Gov. money for their Yeshivos. As far as social services – this isn’t Nazi Germany (or is it?) where Frum Jews are second-class citizens and don’t have the rights of other citizens.
Also, stopping the dependency on the Gov. will Not stop the persecution, esp. with regards to the draft. And the proof of this is they are issuing arrest warrants for anyone right now who refuses to sign up for the draft -incl. those groups who don’t take $ for their Yeshivos.
One possible solution is – I read about this awhile ago -is they (some Charedim) were talking to Jordan about moving there & establishing a Yishuv. If this would take off and Frum people would have the choice to move there -Israel would become more Charedi friendly, not because they care about Charedim leaving, but because their International status & PR, which is right now very low, would sink even more!March 7, 2013 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #935149The Kanoi Next DoorMember
“I read about this awhile ago -is they (some Charedim) were talking to Jordan about moving there & establishing a Yishuv.”
Really? Could you provide a link?March 7, 2013 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #935150
To Health: There is an organization that is seeking to carry out the proposal you mentioned in your last paragraph. It’s called Jews for Jordan. Catchy name. They even sell t-shirts to promote their ideas.March 7, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #935151realtalkMember
First of all the frum parties actually won a nice number of seats.
Secondly and most important- stop relying on the parties and start relying on Someone who can actually can change things. Maybe it’s for the best so that we’ll finally start fully relying on G-d.March 7, 2013 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #935152gavra_at_workParticipant
One possible solution is – I read about this awhile ago -is they (some Charedim) were talking to Jordan about moving there & establishing a Yishuv. If this would take off and Frum people would have the choice to move there -Israel would become more Charedi friendly, not because they care about Charedim leaving, but because their International status & PR, which is right now very low, would sink even more!
That would be wonderful! Please tell me you are serious.
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