August 17, 2022 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #2116135
Why do all signs in Israel have Hebrew, English but also Arabic written? Why even accommodate the Arab population? If they are Israeli they should learn Hebrew and for tourists the English translation is enough. Why the Arabic? Even America doesnt have Spanish on signage and there is a huge Latino populationAugust 17, 2022 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #2116196
We are in golus. We must not impose ourselves on the Goyim.
P.S. During the times of the Beis Hamikdash, there were signs in foreign languages giving the Goyim instructions.August 17, 2022 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #2116209
We always had signs for arei miklaot, used rarely – so that the retzahim would quickly go where they need to go without stopping to talk to anyone and creating more trouble. At the same time, there is no mitzva to have signs towards Yerushalaim, so that everyone going on regel would stop and and ask direction from everyone and inspire them. So, this is a good reason to have Arabic signs. Otherwise, they will be stopping by a makolet to ask for direction and getting into a fight.August 17, 2022 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2116239
Also, one million sefardi refugees who migrated to Israel spoke Arabic.August 17, 2022 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2116238
There are a high percentage of Israeli citizens who are Arabs. Israel was founded in a land where people spoke Arabic. It makes perfect sense to accommodate them.
I also don’t like the American nationalistic, xenophobic attitude of “this is America! Learn English you foreigner!” It’s one of the things that conservative goyim are mistaken about. It’s not a torah idea; we are told to love foreigners if they are keeping our beliefs and ideals, whether they are a ger toshav or especially if they’re a ger tzedek.
Asserting Jewish dominance just leads to Jews dying from terrorist attacks.August 18, 2022 12:45 am at 12:45 am #2116262
no Avirah I didnt mean it this way-“I also don’t like the American nationalistic, xenophobic attitude of “this is America! Learn English you foreigner!” ”
I meant it seems like recognizing a people who claim its their land. What do you mean it was founded on Arabic land so makes sense to accommodate them? It was founded on Canaanite idol worshipping land. Maybe we should also build more mosques, teach Arabic in schools and give the Arabs some more land to accommodate them a bit better?
“Asserting Jewish dominance just leads to Jews dying from terrorist attacks”
-actually the opposite, the stronger you are the weaker they get. Arabs are afraid of strength but thrive on others weakness. Its a known nature attributed to them. Not recognizing them at all lowers all their might. Not to be politcial but its why in the 4 years of Trump Israel was silent and peaceful and the palestinians were unheard of since they lost all confidence once he declared a 1 state solution option. Suddenly when Biden came around they sprang up like hounds “wanting to discuss peace”.
“It’s one of the things that conservative goyim are mistaken about. It’s not a torah idea; we are told to love foreigners if they are keeping our beliefs and ideals, whether they are a ger toshav or especially if they’re a ger tzedek.”
-You are mixing different cases. It also said that if enemies are left after conquering the land they will be like a thorn ion your eyes. That part we are seeing. Where is it encouraged to have enemies living in the land and to respect them? Did that apply to the Plishtim as well? They kept heir beliefs and ideals too. The Arabs seem to be keeping the ideals and beliefs of killing Jews quite strictly.
ujm”P.S. During the times of the Beis Hamikdash, there were signs in foreign languages giving the Goyim instructions.”
-Ive seen that sign in Greek or something, but again they have the signs written in English, why the need for Arabic too, why not Russian for the Russian population? If its for safety reasons ( the Arabic) then i guess that makes sense although I think its more to make them comfortable and show what a good Democracy Israel is. I feel its more important for Jews to beware of Arab areas than the other way around if anything.August 18, 2022 8:19 am at 8:19 am #2116292Ray KaufmanParticipant
Bear in mind that English is pretty much the universal language of comerce in the world. While Mandarin Chinese may be the most common native language, English is, by far, the language spoken by the most people. If you want to do business in the world, you’d better speak English.August 18, 2022 8:19 am at 8:19 am #2116293Ray KaufmanParticipant
UJM, you are constant reminding us all that “we are in golus.” It’s that attitude that’s keeping us in golus.August 18, 2022 9:09 am at 9:09 am #2116340
Ray: Au contraire. It is when we forget that we are golus that keeps us in golus much longer.August 18, 2022 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #2116356akupermaParticipant
1. If they are going to give place names in the Latin alphabet (the script of the Romans, the Crusaders, the Nazis, etc.), why not throw in the Arabic script (who until the mid-20th century were at most a nuisance).
2. Especially if you base your demographics on Eretz Yisrael rather than Medinat Yisrael, a large percentage of Israel’s population speaks Arabic as a first language. Except for rich “Anglo-Saxons” (more likely to be tourists than Israelis), very few Israeli speak English. Also note that a considerable percentage of those Arabic speakers hold Israeli citizenship, and have made clear they prefer to live in democratic (small “D”) and secular (relatively) state than be part of the rather fascistic fanatically Islam world.
3. Israel is in the Middle East (Ha-Shem’s choice, if a quiet uninhabited island was preferred Sefer Shemos would have include boat building instructions and a nautical map to either New Zealand or Madigascar) – and our neighbor’s speak Arabic. Note that both the Hareidim and the Zionists (except for a minority of “Religious zionists” desire peaceful relations with the Arabs.August 18, 2022 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #2116370YankelleParticipant
Over 1/5 of Israel’s population is Arab. Why not accommodate them by providing signage in Arabic? BTW, enabling 1/5 of a country’s citizens to understand signage (be it directions, instruction, earning, etc…) also helps the non-Arabic speaking population. Also, I’ve only seen Arabic signage in certain cities which have a large Arab population, probably much higher than 1/5 (ie: in Jerusalem, but nor in Tzfat).
And what’s the harm in such signage? Why does it upset you?August 18, 2022 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #2116469
Yankelle Arabic is on all road signs not just Arabic areas. It doesnt upset me but it just makes it seem like it truly is a country of 2 peoples aka a double state.August 18, 2022 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #2116520
Personally, I’d say to limit the languages on the sign to Yiddish and Arabic.August 18, 2022 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2116531
Ujm, why not just Aramaic? Capture all 3 languages in 1.August 18, 2022 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2116598
There was a consideration to have Yiddish as the official language of future Israel… Ivrit won because it could be associated with giborim of the old rather than recent ghettos…
Yeshivas continued in Yiddish of course.. r Kamenetsky when visiting r Auerbachs yeshiva said that moschiach will come from there because they had top classes in ivrit making them available to SephardimAugust 19, 2022 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2116641modernParticipant
“Ivrit won because”
Because Jews whose families had lived in Eretz Yisrael for centuries had no history of speaking Yiddish. Arabic was their first language. Yiddish was only the language of Jews in Eastern Europe. Ivrit is the language of all Jews.August 19, 2022 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2116642besalelParticipant
When the British ruled, they made all signs in English for the ruling British, in Hebrew for the Jewish population and in Arabic for the arab population. When Israel returned as the sovereign, it kept the British practice in place in all cities and even on the money. The new Israeli cities don’t continue the same tradition and the signs in all new cities are in English and Hebrew and not arabic.August 19, 2022 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #2116703
Modern: Ivrit is not the language of Jews. The vast majority of Jews do not know Ivrit; especially outside the State.
Yiddish has historically been the lingua franca of Jews across countries.August 19, 2022 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #21167151Participant
Because there are Arabic citizens in Israel who make up a portion of the population.August 19, 2022 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2116727besalelParticipant
ujm: if you delete the conservative/reform/unaffiliated jews of the usa from your definition of who is a jew, as i do, then not only do a majority of the jews speak modern hebrew but they speak it as their first language. Most certainly, in 40-50 years those fake American “Jews” will not fit anyone’s definition of Jewish and so by then, an overwhelming majority of Jews will be speaking modern Hebrew as their primary language. I view it as most unfortunate, as Yiddish is a beautiful language and culture, but Yiddish is shrinking fast and has absolutely no future. It is sad. BH some chassidism will still teach Yiddish alongside Modern Hebrew and English so that Yiddish does not complete die off in our lifetime.August 19, 2022 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #2116734
Besalel: If you delete irreligious Israelis, Ivrit has only a small percent of Torah observant Jewry speaking it; especially as a first language. Many can make it out based on our understanding of Loshon Kodesh but nevertheless do not use it as an everyday language. Yiddish is still the fastest growing language among Torah observant Jews since Chasidim, who are the fastest growing segment of observant Jews, use Yiddish as their first language. Whether they live in the United States, Canada, Israel, England, Belgium or elsewhere.August 19, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2116743GadolhadorahParticipant
If you travel anywhere in the world, it is not unusual to see road sighs bilingual or trilingual to reflect either large segments of the locals speaking a second language or accommodating tourists. When hiking in Patagonia earlier this summer, we were amused by the frequent national park signs reminding us in English, Spanish and HEBREW to carry out our trash.August 19, 2022 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2116749
Modern, according to what I read, organizations that were making those decisions were basing them on their ideological considerations and not on the yerushalamis. I agree with your view and so did r Kamenetsky in the quote.
It is always good to have a wider view on the whole am yisroel rather than a parochial one. During ww2 in Vilno, right before Lithuania was occupied, r Grozdinsky was asked who should get priority for visas, old or young rabbis. Old ones will be killed first, but younger ones would lose their children to communist education.. Rav answered that old ones should have priority because 1. They’ll be able to help remaining ones when they get to America and 2. They’ll be more useful for American JewsAugust 19, 2022 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #2116760
Did you capitalize that to hint to us that the Hebrew speakers litter more than Yiddish speakers?August 19, 2022 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #2116770GadolHadofiParticipant
“Many can make it out based on our understanding of Loshon Kodesh”.
You’ve obviously never actually heard charedim speaking in the streets of Yerushalaim. Your claim of living in Meah Shearim part of the year is yet another figment of your own weird imagination.August 20, 2022 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2116836
Ujm, yiddish is growing in America, but in eretz yisroel, most charedim, including chasidim, speak Hebrew, and it’s a minority who speak yiddish. The way things are growing, both yiddish and lehavdil ivrit are set to be the most common languages of frum jews. The chazon ish said that speaking hebrew is a fight that we need to concede to, since it’s already lost, and because the sefardim would be lost forever if we spoke different languages. That last part no longer applies, since they have their own infrastructure now…should there be a resurgence in going back yo yiddish in bnei brak etc? Not a bad idea, but there are also bigger nisyonos and things to worry about.August 20, 2022 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2116847commonsaychelParticipant
Yiddish is thriving not just in the USA but Canada, UK, Belguim among other places, I dont hear hebrew being spoken on the street outside of Israel whereas I hear hear yiddish bing spoken all the time in those placesAugust 20, 2022 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2116849
Avira, while most Chareidim in Israel speak Ivrit, most of them (especially Chasidim) also speak Yiddish. As to which is their first language and which is their second language, you might have a better idea. Among Chasidim it seems to me that most use Yiddish first, though by certain Chsiduses (Ger?) it can be the opposite.August 21, 2022 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2117076takahmamashParticipant
ujm: “Yiddish has historically been the lingua franca of Jews across countries.”
Really? Sfardim spoke Yiddish? I’m sure they’d be surprised to hear it. Ladino was just a popular amongst the Sfardim as Yiddish was in Eastern Europe/Russia.August 21, 2022 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2117087August 21, 2022 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2117107hujuParticipant
I believe that the use of street signs in English, Hebrew and Arabic (in the Roman alphabet) goes back to the time of the British Mandate, i.e., starting in 1920. Before 1920, there were few automobiles. I think that following Israel’s gaining independence in 1948, no thought was given to changing the British practice, and it works – it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.August 21, 2022 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #2117127
It doesnt work because it gives the impression of 2 States. What other countries have a foreign language on their signage other than English? Street signs have it as well why would that be necessary at all? It should be Only hebrew and english for tourists and the like. If anything its better without the Arabic so they can feel less welcome in Jewish areas and stay in their own territories. What advantage does it give to have arabic writing on signs? I can only see disadvantages to it.August 21, 2022 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2117129
And if it gives the impression of two states, and makes the arabs less angry, what’s so bad?
Also, there are countries where everything is in two languages, notably CanadaAugust 21, 2022 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2117133
By giving people directions, you make sure they don’t drive around dangerously looking for the destination, don’t learn ivrit to understand direction, and don’t get aggravated by lack of directions and respect.August 21, 2022 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2117138
Canada bad example many places were connected to french due to occupying. Second of all its not making the Arabs less angry they are always the same. If anything it will make them less angry once Israel shows them there is no 2 states because then their hopes will be lost and they will lose all confidence just as they did when Trump showed them there will likely be no 2 states. The arabs thrive on weakness and are in check when shown strength.
alwayask”By giving people directions, you make sure they don’t drive around dangerously looking for the destination, don’t learn ivrit to understand direction, and don’t get aggravated by lack of directions and respect.”
-well ,maybe nobody should learn english in the US and just have 70 languages on the signage so that nobody gets aggravated? How do the directions stop people from driving dangerously I dont see the relation. Also people can use GPS without need for signs.August 21, 2022 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2117143
I am just following the Gerer Rebbe psak. One fine shabbos on Warsaw, an yid on a horse had hutzpa to ask some Gerer chasidim directions. They turned away so not to see the aveirah. Then the Rebbe walked to the guy and gave him directions. He explained to the surprised chasidim that this way the guy will ride the horse less and do less hillul shabbos. The sefer didn’t make it clear whether this was the real explanation or just plain derech eretz towards an yid.
I have to add a personal story. I once asked someone looking like a Gerer chosid directions in Yerushalaim, not on shabbos and not dressed like him. This was before gps and few people had cellphones and paid by the minutes. The guy got out his fancy phone and started calling his friends and family for my directions as if it was his own problem.August 21, 2022 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #2117146
It’s definitely not derech eretz to help people do aveiros, or show any kind of acknowledgement or tacit approval of forbidden actions; these are open halachos.August 22, 2022 12:01 am at 12:01 am #2117151
Canada’s a great example; just like in eretz yisroel, the Arabic language was and is spoken by the people who were there before the chalutzim and other jews came in. If anything, hebrew’s Canadian counterpart is English; people started speaking it because of an outsiders influence and power. The arabs lived there before the state; the land was both purchased, and taken by force, but the people who lived there before the state spoke Arabic. The jews who were in yerushalayim spoke yiddish if they were ashkenazim, and the sefardim probably spoke arabic or (less likely) ladino. Nobody spoke hebrew, because its demon spawn hadn’t happened yet.August 22, 2022 8:51 am at 8:51 am #2117238
Avira, so what is your explanation of Gerer Rebbe’s action?August 22, 2022 10:57 am at 10:57 am #2117279
Avirah Jews also lived in Israel before 1948 and spoke Hebrew why are you feeding us the Palestinian narrative? It wasn’t just European Jews who came to Israel there were Jews living there all the years. And it was occupied by many nations before so if we go by your theory why don’t we also see signs written in the Roman language Latin, or Persian or any other occupying nation. English writing isn’t because of Brits it’s because it’s universal language. With canada it only became fully independent in 1982 which is very recent, and they still have some ties to Queens Elizabeth and she is depicted on their currency. Whether they choose to keep french or not later on idk. Who are you helping by arab signs? The Palestinians? Any Arab born in Israel knows Hebrew. Israel was never an Arab land the closest was that Arab empires occupied the land but it wasn’t considered an Arabic land. According to you it was . Jews knew Hebrew, Aramaic is closer to Hebrew than Yiddish.August 22, 2022 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2117308
RW: Ivrit is a new language. It wasn’t spoken by Jews prior to Zionism and it’s atheist inventor Ben-Yehuda around the beginning of the 20th century. Prior to that Jews mainly spoke Yiddish, Arabic and Ladino.August 22, 2022 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2117333
What the gerrer rebbe did was that he minimized the sins of another Jew, who was going to travel anyway. Also, giving directions isn’t directly encouraging him to sin, since you could walk instead of drive.
you cant overturn halachos in gemara and shu”a of “misayaeh lidei ovrei aveirah”, helping somoene sin when it’s not a deoraysoh of lifnei iver, just because of a story from the gerrer rebbe; rather it’s the story that needs to be understood.August 22, 2022 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2117332
to those infatuated with zionist narratives, there’s no kibbush haaretz during galus. We are obliged in the gemara by oath to not retake the land or fight the goyim. it’s an open gemara that can’t just be explained away with fanciful novelties of “they broke their oath(who? the arabs? what did they do to us?)” or “thats not halacha, it’s just the…will of Hashem expressed in the gemara”August 22, 2022 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2117331
I shouldn’t say Israelis say that they took all of the land peacefully; the academics and most of the country admit to their barbarism, in places like deir yassin. It’s only the far-right who engage in historic revisionism and try to hide any and all wrongdoing by the settlers and early israeli army.
It’s a shame that frum people buy into this garbage. It’s no different than the far-right in america who deny america’s barbarism towards native americans (to be fair, the native americans were even more barbaric, but two wrongs don’t make a right), or the far-right in europe which wish to erase blame for the holocaust, or in Japan where they try to hide their oppression of the chinese and manchurians before and during WW2.August 22, 2022 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2117329
Jews only started speaking hebrew after world war 1, more or less. It’s not “palestinian narrative”, it’s just facts. And it’s also facts that Jews drove out some arab villages, and bought up some land. Palestinians say that the israelis stole ALL the land, and israelis say that they took ALL of the land peacefully – neither are true. It was both.
The few Jews who lived in eretz yisroel over the years did not speak hebrew, since it wasn’t invented yet. As I said, they spoke either yiddish, arabic, or perhaps ladino/judeo-persian/ etc..
But the majority (by a huge margin) of people living in EY during the ottoman empire were arabs who spoke arabic. Parts of EY were unpopulated or sparsely populated, but they still spoke arabic. When the Israelis took over, large swaths of people still spoke and continue to speak arabic. Being accommodating to them isn’t a problem.August 22, 2022 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2117327
ujm how can ivrit be a new language? You can say the accent is different but the Torah is written in Hebrew is it not? Books that Tzdikkim wrote are in Hebrew. How is it a new language?August 22, 2022 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2117363
right; I know lashon kodesh fluently and I barely understand israeli newspapers. They redid the language, and before it, nobody spoke lashon kodesh in eretz yisroel. They didn’t. Some did when they would wear tefilin. In times of chazal nobody, even in EY, spoke lashon kodesh; they spoke aramaic.August 22, 2022 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2117367
The Chasam Sofer writes that the reason Jews do not speak Loshon Hakodesh as a speaking language is because it is inappropriate to use a holy language while enveloped in Tumah, which is our current status. The Rambam writes that a love song in Hebrew is more repulsive to Hashem than the same song in Arabic, for instance, because the pollution of the Holy language is an additional crime. If someone wants to store pornography in his house, thats bad enough. But to store it in the Aron HaKodesh is unspeakably worse. So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets. For our Creator to look down at the world and see His holy language – or even elements of it – used in magazines such as are sold in Kiosks on Yaffo or Dizengoff Street, or spoken by the lowest of the low trying to make a sale, is not something that he or we are happy about.
The Kuzari writes that Avrohom Avinu, therefore, spoke 2 different languages. One for holy speech – that was Loshon HaKodesh, and the other for mundane speech – that, the Kuzari says was some non-Jewish language that Avrohom Avinu took and changed around a little on his own. And thats the idea behind Yiddish. It is a non-Jewish language that we took and twisted a bit in order to make it exclusive among us.
Even though there are Yiddishistin who speak Yiddish, they took it from us, not vice-versa (as is the case of Modern Hebrew), and since we do not live in a country or society dominated by Yiddish-speaking shkotzim, there is no benefit of Lo shinu es leshonam by not speaking Yiddish. But there is such a benefit by not speaking Hebrew.August 22, 2022 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #2117364
RW: Modern Hebrew is not different than Turkish or Farsi – it is the language of a secular culture complete with all those things that we want to stay away from. The fact that some of those who speak Modern Hebrew are religious Jews is not different than the language of any country Jews are in where they speak the language of the land. The point is to stay away from the language of the land and only talk the language of the Jew.
The Radak (Sefer HaMichlol, introduction) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is all but forgotten to us, and all we have left is what is in Tanach.
The Chasam Sofer notes that while Chazal used many words and phrases borrowed from the Greeks and Romans, they never coined a new word, as has been done in modern hebrew, for in their holy opinion it was preferable to use other languages rather than create even a single new word that did not have its like, its example, in the Torah, since it could not be rooted in sanctity.
The Chasam Sofer EH 2:11 says that in ancient times Jews used to use a modified version of the non-Jewish languages for everyday (divrei chol) talk, similar to what Yiddish is.
The Rambam writes that even in the days of Ezra they had a translator to explain the Torah readings to the people – clearly, they did not speak Loshon Hakodesh, even before the Churban.
Maran Hagoen Rav Elazar Shach told American educators that Yeshiva boys should be taught Chumash in Yiddish, even if the boys speak English amongst themselves. He furtermore said that both boys and girls should learn to be comfortable in Yiddish. He also said that Yiddish is spoken by “all jews” (that is his phrase). He referred parents to send their children to Yiddish teaching yeshivos. And there is good reason why Rebbes and Rabbonim give ma’amarim in Yiddish.August 22, 2022 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #2117369
Avira”The few Jews who lived in eretz yisroel over the years did not speak hebrew, since it wasn’t invented yet.”
-ok i guess the Torah is just a translation from Yiddish and Ladino, thanks for the info. Yes there is no reason to accommodate Arab speakers in Israel. Same as Medina Saudi Arabia doesnt have signs in whatever jewish language you want to choose for the Jews who lived there for over 1000 years. Germany doesnt have signs in Yiddish either. Rome doesnt have signs in Yiddish for the Jews they took captive to their. But yes accommodating the Arabs is a great idea this way it can encourage them to stay and bring more arabs to live in Israel why not.
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