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I am really confused and bothered by the recent incident that happened in a shul in Har Nof. There is a well-known mashal/story about a rabbi ( I don’t remember whom it was) that the malach Hamaves tried to strike him, but could only do it when wasn’t learning Torah, so created a distraction by his window, and then struck him. Isn’t there something that can’t be harmed while doing mitzvos? Also, isn’t the men talleisim like tzitzis which is supposed to protect the from harm?
Serious answers please…
The malach hamoves distracted Dovid HaMelech from doing mitzvahs, by causing him to trip while he was learning, in order to get him. (Or am I thinking of someone else?)
there is a klal shluchei mitzvos einom nizakim
this bothered me alsoalso
unless you say that they took their mind off of what they were doing
It’s not so surprising that they were distracted by the terrorists. The maaseh with Dovid Hamelech is a limud for how important and powerful limud Torah is, but cannot realistically be applied to us, who aren’t nearly on the same level.
What’s more important than this is introspection, to figure out how we can improve, each of us in the most appropriate way.
HY”D
We’ll ask Hashem after 120. Until then, we know that everything is done for a reason and for the best- sometimes we understand it and often we don’t. But that doesn’t (or shouldn’t) shake our Emunah in Him.
Meanwhile it is important to understand in no uncertain terms, that YWN took the absolute correct decision in publishing the gruesome picture of the attack. We have to comprehend the full atrocity of this massacre, and the world has to witness the carnage in picture, each picture being worth 1000 words.
There is solely only 1 wrong decision in all of this:- The terrorist decision to commit this horrendous atrocity. This remains the sole & only wrong decision that was made in this entire saga.
I don’t know what was edited out, but now is a time for all of us to try to mechazek ourselves and each other in emunah, and really, even if asked in sincerity, these types of questions should probably be asked at a less emotional time (and not in a public forum).
Wanttohelpandask,
Your question is a valid one. No one is saying that it isn’t! We’re just saying that the cr isn’t really the right place to ask, especially right after the terror attack. Right now, as the mod said, we should be focusing on how to improve ourselves.
There is nothing wrong with asking how bad things can happen, and what we need to learn from it. There is nothing wrong with asking how it can happen to people who seem to be oseik bamitzvah. There is, however, something wrong with speculating what may have gone wrong with these particular people or with this particular tragedy. That is not a question, that is speculation. And this is not the time or place for that. We do not know why things happen. The best we can do is determine what we need to learn from it and strengthen our emunah that all that happens is l’tova.
147:
“Meanwhile it is important to understand in no uncertain terms, that YWN took the absolute correct decision in publishing the gruesome picture of the attack.”
Says you.
“We have to comprehend the full atrocity of this massacre, and the world has to witness the carnage in picture, each picture being worth 1000 words.”
Even assuming this is true, it didn’t have to be done by YWN specifically.
Regarding Dovid Hamelech:
1) That was Torah. It would not apply to davening (I assume).
2) Even if we were talking about learning, I do not think it likely that anyone today learns in such an absolutely uninterrupted way (and perhaps the person’s spiritual level matters as well – no one today can be compared to Dovid, as DaasYochid said).
3) As DaasYochid said, even if we were talking about such a case, the person’s learning could have been disrupted by the attack.
Regarding “shluchei mitzvah einon nizakin”:
Perhaps this applies only to people on their way to do a mitzvah (or coming back from one?), but not to people actually doing a mitzvah (certainly when they did not travel to do it).
I understand why op asked and was speculating. We know that ‘acher? witnessed someone dying while doing shiluach hakan and kibud av, both of which are promised long life. He then went off the Derech because he wondered ‘if this isn’t true, maybe everything else isn’t true’. I think what op is asking is for justification to believe that Hashem didn’t break his promise to kill someone while that person is doing a mitzvah.
Interjection – absolutely correct about the opening post, which is why it was approved. The content of the deleted post was different. The opening post still remains and I hope people continue to contribute.
Randomex is correct about his Shluchei Mitzvah Chiluk, I believe.
The Gemara says it’s impossible for a Shliach Mitzvah to be harmed, yet quotes a story that it did. The only answer is in the Olam HaEmes, not here.
There is, however, a difference between a Hezek that is solely Min Hashamayim and one that came through others utilizing their own Bechira, according to some Rishonim.
If the story in Har Nof confuses you, this Gemera will really make you rethink your preconceived notions. Look at how is Rebbe responds to him when he says “heaven will have mercy on me” (the implication is for being involved in Torah).
??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? (???) ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? [?????? ????? ?????] ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???
Wantohelpandask: We are all horrified by this horrific tragedy in Klal Yisroel. No one here is trying to criticize you or your questions,BUT can we really provide the answers? Are we plain people equipped to satisfy your questions? Are there any real answers? I think about the personal families of the niftarim and I shudder! I think of my parents and grandparents,a.h. and what they went through,and I shudder! I think we need to hear WHAT THE GEDOLIM OF OUR GENERATION ARE SAYING, and act accordingly! Hakadush Baruch Hu should give us all the koach to get through this ….and may we only share simchas in Klal Yisroel!
(Eftachbchinor: I have been keeping to the mandate you gave me, but I think the mandate itself would mandate that I respond here.)
1) There are several stories in the Talmud about the Angel of Death being unable to kill someone because he was engaged in Torah study. (E.g. King David in Shabbos 30b, Rav Chisda in Makkos 10a, Rabbah Bar Nachmeini in Bava Metziah 86a.)
2) Rabbeinu Bechayei in Kad Hakemach “Torah(A)” discusses this idea and then raises the question:
??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????
and answers:
??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????
3) As to other mitzvos, this is discussed in Kiddushin 39b. The Gemara records that R’ Yaakov and (according to one version) Acher saw someone ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ??? ??? i.e. he was simultaneously fulfilling ????? ?? and ????? ??? and he died. R’ Yaakov used this as the impetus for his shita of ??? ???? ???? ???? ????. However, it seems from the Gemara that even within ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? there is a concept of ????? ???? ??? ?????? and therefore the Gemara attempts to explain how the person could have died. The Gemara’s conclusion is that it was ???? ?????? and ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????. There are other potential ways to answer as well, involving different aveiros, but as people have pointed out, we don’t want to speculate about this.
Also, the Maharsha on this Gemara references the Mishnah in Avos (4:19) which says ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? which many commentaries explain as referring to the fact that we can’t understand H’s calculations about why bad things happen to good people and vice versa. (See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-world-to-come-and-gilgulim#post-531184 and the continuation there.)
See R’ Chaim Kanievsky in ???? ???? on ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ? who addresses this exact question. Basically, he says that ????? ???? ???? ??????? just means that no harm will come to a person on account of performing a mitzvah, but if someone’s time has come to go to the Olam HaEmes, that can happen even while performing a mitzvah. He says that it is actually a zchus to be taken while in the midst of performing a mitzvah.
If I’m not mistaken, the story about Dovid Hamelech that you are referring to is in .??? ?? ?. The way Dovid Hamelech did a mitzvah was quite different then the way most of us do. As Randomex pointed out, in that case it was Torah, not Tefillah that was saving Dovid. There are several reasons why one might die even while doing a mitzva. We assume not but in some cases the person may not be doing the mitzvah improperly (improper tfillin placement) or something of that nature. We do not assume this was the case here. I believe it was R’ Moshe, but I may be mistaken, who said that with animals like these (terrorist) the rule of Shluchei Mitzva doesn’t apply.
I hear the OPs question, sadly my emunah got rocked for a split second also. However, to give up because of something which you dont even remember fully just doesnt make sense. There are obviously famous answers from gedolim to these types of questions but as of now we here are ignorant of them.
So as everyone else said, without a doubt theres a plan and that could be enough. If this is really bothering you then you should probably ask a real talmid chochom, not some random website- especialy with the fine line between kefirah and truth.
As mentioned, Shluchei Mitzva is about something happening on account of doing the Mitzva. An example is the Gemara in Kedushin, mentioned above, about falling off a ladder that he only climbed onto for the sake of a Mitzva. It is learned from Olei Reggel, where the Pasuk promises that nobody will harm your property while you are gone, where the vulnerability was because of the Mitzva. This is what ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? means.
On the other hand, in Maseches Shabbos Rav Yosef says??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????.
And, regarding the Tallis, it is not a magic guard, it is a Mitzva. What happened by Dovid Hamelch, Rebbi Chiya and Moshe Rabbeinu is that the Malach Hamaves cannot gain access during the learning. As mentioned above, Davenning is not learning. Additionaly, murder is not about the Malach Hamaves gaining access. Krias Shema is learning and Rebbi Akiva died while reciting it.
Rabbah bar Nachmeini was also Niftar while learning, but that was because he surrendered, the Malach Hamaves wasn’t Sholet.
The YWN was absolutely correct, IMO. Unfortunately, the right people NEVER see these pictures.
As for Dovid Hamelech, the story I learned was that he knew he was to die at a specific time (on a Shabbos, I believe), so he spent all his time then, learning Torah, because the Malach Hamaves could not get to him then. In frustration the MHM made a loud noise outside the palace, Dovid Hamelech was startled and momentarily distracted from his learning, and in that moment the MHM took his life.
PAA:
(Eftachbchinor: I have been keeping to the mandate you gave me, but I think the mandate itself would mandate that I respond here.)
This, I assume?
according to my Rabbanim and Daas Torah, of course you can ask your questions – it IS a VERY SHOCKING STORY and does momentarily startle our regular faith in Hashem – and in yiddishkeit we are never scared of questions. But best would be to go ask your rav or a talmid chochom for the best answer – you could discuss it with him properly, have back and forth questions and answers and understand this topic as well as we can.
Such a shocking tragedy – we (my husband and I) used to live around the corner on Rechov HaKablan – if you’re familiar with Shchunat Har Nof, it is an upper-class, suburban, peaceful neighborhood on the outskirts of Yerushalayim. That a massacre/pogrom of this sort should happen here is a tremendous shock.
But there was one thing that comforted me – when I heard the nissim of the few who were not in shul that day for various reasons.
My son’s principle told the boys that his elderly father-in-law always davens in that shul and his seat is at the back where all the kedoshim were but on Tuesday morning his taxi didn’t come and he couldn’t walk all the way so he davened at home.
When I heard this I thanked Hashem for letting me hear this story as this comforted me because ‘in the same way that some people were not there that morning and we don’t understand why, so too some people were yes there – even if we can’t know WHY.
There is a plan even though we can’t understand it right now. We’re looking at the back of the tapestry so we just see the knots and the random threads crossing over each other. We’re like the fly that lands on a very valuable painting but just sees the one dark patch he landed on and so he can’t understand why all the people are marvelling at the exquisite work of art. Us too – one day when we see the whole picture we’ll understand – and it’ll all be so clear we’ll understand just like that – no explanations.
This should be the last bad news we ever hear. The next news we hear should be the sound of the shofar and Mashiach’s arrival. Omein.
Thank you everyone for all the hashkafa you wrote in these posts.
Bilbo:
Your Gemara appears to be talking about a case in which
someone was openly disobeying government laws that
carried the death penalty. It hardly seems more confusing that
such a person would be warned not to continue endangering
himself in such a way than that people doing a mitzvah would
suddenly be killed by a terrorist.
Basically, [Reb Chaim Kanievsky] says that ????? ???? ???? ??????? just means that no harm will come to a person on account of performing a mitzvah.
Thanks for posting that, Illumshemo.
oomis:
“Unfortunately, the right people NEVER see these pictures.”
Would you expect people to change the way they think about
the whole situation because they see pictures of the actions
they have heard about?
(Do you think seeing pictures of Arab civilians killed during
the recent operations in Gaza would make you think differently
about anything?)
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