December 24, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #607547jewishnessParticipant
So we have Chareidi zealots freaking out in protest at a chareidi job fair where this organization holds its annual job fair. Here are people trying to help others make a livelihood in desperate times. What a huge mitzvah of chessed!
Where do these low lives come from? What a stain and shame on our people!December 24, 2012 7:06 am at 7:06 am #915744
I agree — it is outrageous.December 24, 2012 10:03 am at 10:03 am #915745
If you read the posts by various people here on other threads (Loyal Jew is a prime example) you will find that unfortunately the attitudes towards earning a parnosso are mindblowingly ridiculous in some circles. This episode is simply a natural consequence of those attitudes. Shame really.December 24, 2012 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #915746
So we have Chareidi zealots freaking out in protest at a chareidi job fair
Call them criminals, call them thugs, call them whatever you like- but please, do not refer to them as Charedi nor zealots. They are a group of demented individuals that grow up in an extremely secluded enclave that does not connect in the slightest with the rest of the Charedi world.
Their religion is Radical Judaism, not Orthodox Judaism. I take no more offense from their actions than I do from secular Jews.December 24, 2012 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #915747HaKatanParticipant
I don’t know about this organization, but YWN wrote that the protesters “accuse the organization of pulling avreichim from the beis medrash and into the workplace, where their lifestyle and adherence to Torah and Halacha would be compromised.”
So if that’s a real concern then their protest is valid. But if it’s not a real concern then their protest is a fraud.
The article doesn’t mention any more, like who runs this organization, and if their adherence to a Torah life would be respected/accommodated.December 24, 2012 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #915748
I am glad YWN published this, i saw it elsewhere unfortunatly some people are truly making a mockery out of yiddishkeite and creating a terrible Chilul hashemDecember 24, 2012 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #915749PLONIALMONI4Member
I think a simple way to get a true perspective as to how react to this latest lunacy in the so called Chareidi world who supposedly speak for Orthodox Judaism ( wish I would know who ordained them with this honor) is to simply think as to how the giants of recent previous generations would have reacted.
Picture the Chasam Sofer, Rabbi Akive Eiger, the GRA, the Malbim, to name a few. The Satmr Rewbbe Z”L ( the one and only true Satmar Rebbe) would regularly go through the beis hamedrash of Satmar and advise anyone over 20 to go out and work.
You would not need Choshen Mishpat. You would only need 3 chalakim to the Shulchan Aruch. Nobody would be involved in commercial affairs.
Just mind boggling as to how we have allowed lunatics to hijack our beautiful mesorah and twist and corrupt it to the point where our forefathers would not recognize how we conduct our lives.
Greatest loss is for our children to witness this stupidity.December 24, 2012 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #915750Derech HaMelechMember
I agree with HaKatan. They are presenting a valid concern albeit through a means that you are uncomfortable with. I don’t think it is right to label them zealots because of the negative connotation of that word, although I do believe they are being zealous in their desire to keep the klal in the Beis Medrish. That’s not a bad thing. If no one would remind us where we are supposed to be, eventually we will forget.
To you they may appear uncivilized in their manner of protest. Unfortunately, the atmosphere in E”Y is such that this is the only way to really be heard by a community that doesn’t use media. But make no mistake, they are providing a service for the all of us.December 24, 2012 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #915751twistedParticipant
In the picture on the main site, there were maybe 7 protesters shown. On the other side of the balance, most job op venues for hareidim are well attended. Any one with eyes in the head can see that the great welfare/chaluka that supports large swaths of hareididom is not sustainable bederech hateva.December 24, 2012 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #915752
Your generalizing of the attitudes found in “some circles”, based on a fringe in EY and a poster here, is quite wrong.December 24, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #915753
DaasYochid – I’m unfortunately saying it from experience. You wouldn’t believe the kind of things that people say when you leave Yeshiva and go to work. I know that not everyone is like that, and I know that the majority aren’t either. I received a lot of support when I went to work from across various sectors of the kehilla, but that still doesn’t take away from the fact that the attitudes expressed by this group are held, maybe to not such a high degree but still held, by a not-insignificant proportion of the Charedi world. As exemplified by a number of posters here (not just the one). And a natural consequence of that is that some people will take those views and radicalize them to the point that they end up like the nutters in Bet Shemesh. That’s all I was saying I suppose. It probably came out a bit harsh because of my negi’us, I know. For which I apologize. I wish I wasn’t generalizing, honestly I do, but from painful experience I can assure you I am not.December 24, 2012 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #915754popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Bit of an overreaction here, to the overreactors.
The protesters are misguided. But you people are a bit loony also.
Where do these low lives come from? What a stain and shame on our people!
Seriously? Low lives?December 24, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #915755
“But make no mistake, they are providing a service for the all of us.”
I strongly object to your implication that these people are acting on my behalf.
I handed my wife a kesubah in which it says “v’ana eflach v’afarnes yasichi… k’hilchos guvrin yehudain d’falchin um’farnesin es n’sheihon b’kushta”
“And I will work and support you… LIKE THE WAY OF JEWISH MEN THAT THEY WORK AND SUPPORT THEIR WIVES HONESTLY.”
Someone who protests those who are trying to help people go “in the ways of Jewish men” are not providing me with a service.December 24, 2012 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #915756cantgetitMember
+1 Derech HaMelechDecember 24, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #915757WIYMember
Some people here need to switch to decaf. (I know its in decaf section but this is obviously a controversial thread and people need to slow down with the hurling of insults).December 24, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #915758
Hope I didn’t sound insulting. I didn’t mean it to be. I just felt very defensive about the issue because of my negi’us. Time for me to calm down…December 24, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #915759
It is one thing to be against working, and they are misguided in that manner. It is a whole another issue when they get angry and protest others working. Even better is that it’s muttar to stop learning to protest but not to work. Yes, they are misguided, but they are low lives too.
Murderers, drug abusers, harlots and gamblers, all fall under the umbrella of misguided under your definition. Definitely ain’t low lives, right?December 24, 2012 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #915760popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Keep it coming.December 24, 2012 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #915761
AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! GET ANGRY!December 24, 2012 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #915762
I believe that the jobs in question involved working for the “zionist” economy. Jobs such as working for international companies in technological areas, rather than jobs within the frum community (such as retailing, teaching, service base industries, manufacture of items retailed only in the frum community, etc.).
Thus what they were protesting was participating in the zionist economy. If one assumes that the current issues are actually a classic version of a “kulturkampf” (culture wars in which one culture will survive and the other will be forced underground or exteriminated), then such protests are reasonable. The issue is not how one will earn a parnassah, but rather whether Israel will be a Jewish state (based on Torah) or a secular state (based on western secular values). By this standard, working for the western secularists is as much a collaborator, as someone who, as an example, willing worked for the Nazis’ economy, was a collaborator.
The the Israeli have created a situation in which a large part of its population sees the “mainstream” as a mortal enemy is a serious problem, which is not addressed, dooms the Yishuv.December 24, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #915763
There are only so many “frum” jobs available..How many Rebbes, Morah’s Shopkeers are needed.
In order to bring money to the community, you need to work outside the community otherwise the charedi economy will collpaseDecember 24, 2012 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #915764WolfishMusingsParticipant
I believe that the jobs in question involved working for the “zionist” economy.
By that token, any job is forbidden, since the commercial activity generated by any job contributes to the economy. Likewise, they shoudn’t be allowed to go to the grocery and buy food, since it contributes to the “Zionist” economy.*
* And, of course, they consider Zionism to be avoda zara, so they should not be able to do so, even at the cost of their lives.December 24, 2012 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #915765
For those who equate a “Zionist” economy with the Nazi economy, there is one obligation: Move to some isolated outpost over two miles above sea level and accept upon themselves not to leave until the Melech HaMoshiach directs them to.
Back to the main thread:
The operators of these fairs are addressing those who already want to work, but are stuck waiting for an opportunity. Having people in the Bais Medrash whose hearts are not into learning does much more damage than good.December 24, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #915766TheBearIsBackMember
Where do they come from?
The fringes of the underbelly of the most extreme Charedi faction. Same place Srool-Doovid Weiss, Billy Mo Weberman (not the one who recently made the news), Moishe Aryeh Friedman who went from NK to getting his boys into a Belzer girls school, and other professional protestors without a cause come from.
Difference here is that ShaBaK shtinkers tell the Ramat Beit Shimush hooligans what to do and where to strike. Remember, elections are coming up.December 24, 2012 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #915767yaakov doeParticipant
One would assume that the protesters have wives, or hope to find wives that work to support them. Maybe a women only job fair is what they’d sapprove of.December 24, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #915768
Derech HaMelech, look in S.A. Or.Ch. 156! How do you think chareidim should get parnosa? By living off others be’shitah?!? What a Chilul HaShem!!! Do you think 200 years ago no frum Yidden worked? What a ziyuf HaTorah!December 24, 2012 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #915769
Akuperma, I suggest they move to the Moon.December 24, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #915770December 24, 2012 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #915771frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Saw an interesting mechaber recently. Hilchos shabbos. dont have the siman offhand, halachos of business on shabbos.
It is mutar to hire someone (some say even discussing an exact price) to teach your son a profession on shabbos.
I believe it is the mb who explains that it is a dvar mitzva, because if you don’t, he will steal from people.
To be fair, I believe the biur halacha explains that this doesn’t mean that learning is bad.
It is hard to justify a protest against a dvar mitzva though.December 24, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #915772
Rabbi Nehorai said: I forsake all professions in the world and teach my son only Torah, for a person eats of the reward for learning Torah in this world and the principal remains for him in the next world. Other professions are not like this: If a person becomes sick or old or is in agony and cannot work at his occupation, he will die of starvation. The Torah, however, is not like this. It will protect him from evil when he is young and provides him with a future and hope when he is older (Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 82a).
It is interesting that Rabbi Nehrai is the same person as Rabbi Meir. As such, in that sugya on the SAME topic Rabbi Meir writes:
Rabbi Meir said: One should make sure to teach his son a trade which is clean and easy; then pray to He who owns all the wealth and property of the world. For there is poverty and wealth in every occupation. One’s occupation does not cause poverty, nor does it bring wealth. All is determined on the basis of one’s merit (Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 82a).
This is a CLEAR and OBVIOUS stira between Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Nehrai who are no less than THE SAME PEOPLE!?!?!
I understand that there are TWO shitos and both are true and viable. Both are a derech, and ashrei mi who has the Toroso Umnoso and woe is the one who must rely on teva. As Chazal tell us:
‘And you will gather in your grain’ (Deuteronomy 11: 14). Why does the Torah state this? Since it says (Joshua 1: 8), ‘This book of the Torah should not leave your mouth, ‘ I might think that these words should be taken literally. That is why it says, ‘And you should gather in your grain,’ that is, pursue, in combination, with Torah a secular occupation. These are the words of Rabbi Yishmael. Rabbi Shimon b. Yochai said, Is it possible (for a person to have an occupation and still study Torah properly?) If a person plows during plowing season, plants during planting season, harvests during harvesting season, threshes during threshing season, and winnows during the windy season, what will become of the Torah? But, when Israel performs the will of the Omnipresent, their work will be done through others. As it says (Isaiah 61: 5), ‘And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks.’ And when Israel does not perform the will of the Omnipresent, their work will done by themselves, as it says, ‘And you will gather in your grain.’December 24, 2012 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #915773Derech HaMelechMember
mdd: Yes, yes we go through these same things every few months here. I’m not saying that in our current situation everyone should learn. What I am saying is that those of us who are working need someone standing at our shoulders constantly reminding us that the ikkur is to be learning so that we don’t get swallowed up in the workplace.
Maybe that is not you, then you can comfortably ignore the Divine message that was sent to those of us who do need it.December 25, 2012 12:25 am at 12:25 am #915774
Happy is one who is in a well respected profession.
Woe to one who is in the profession full of Schlemazels, Schlemiells and Shmendricks.
Forcing those who are not suited for full time learning into Kollel will fill us with losers and degrade respect for Torah learning.
When one who is nebach of these 3 leaves the Kollel, the Honor of Torah Learning is elevated.
When they are more successful in their new professions they are also elevated and no longer “losers”.December 25, 2012 1:08 am at 1:08 am #915775
josh31 (I hope you have a Jewish name), you clearly despise the kollel system. The same type of people were yesteryear also against the ENTIRE full time yeshiva system, choosing a “real” education for their children and sending them to Afternoon Hebrew School after their “real” schooling. Time are a’changing my friend…the yeshiva system has been fully adopted by the frum olom, and so is the kollel system.
I am a proud member of the kollel for life system. I was zoyche to it. Sadly, you weren’t. But as a consolation prize, you can have the great zchus of supporting me and my chaverim. This will give you a purpose in life and a zchus to enter olom habah.
Instead of supporting the learners of Torah, you hate the kollel system and denigrate it. In your mind, only the few token select few should be in kollel. Following that logic, only the select few should be students in yeshiva and the rest don’t belong there!
Chazal tell us, why is it called Har Sinai, because Sina came down to the world, a hatred against those who learn Torah. While I got the Torah at Sinai, you got the sinah.
Either you are with us or against us. Seems you are not with us!December 25, 2012 1:51 am at 1:51 am #915776Matan1Participant
Shmendrick- I enjoy playing baseball, but since only a select few get chosen for the major leagues, only a select few should play baseball.December 25, 2012 2:29 am at 2:29 am #915777
You post is incredibly ironic. It is dripping with disdain and condescension towards someone you perceive as not on your madrega and yet the very thing you decry is his sinah. I commend you for dedicating your life to learning Torah but based on what you have posted it seems to me that you would benefit from some introspection about your motives for doing so. If you are spending your life in the beis hamidrash to try and bring a greater hisgalus of kavod shomayim, (as opposed to using it as a tool to make yourself feel superior to others)it is not apparent from your words here.December 25, 2012 2:33 am at 2:33 am #915778
“I am a proud member of the kollel for life system”
No you are not. Your screen name shows a complete lack of pride.
I am not going to support the Batlanim of the BMG Coffeeroom.
There is no such thing as a “kollel for life system” in the USA. Rav Kotler wanted his students to learn for some years and then serve the community in meleches Kodesh.
I do have a Jewish name but use a screen name to protect my privacy.
Are you using an Apple or and Android to send your stuff?
I hope it is not an Apple as Tapuach is supposed to be a merit for Klal Yisroel, not to denigrate us.December 25, 2012 2:58 am at 2:58 am #915779WolfishMusingsParticipant
(I hope you have a Jewish name)
I find it incredibly ironic that someone with the screen name “shmendrik” (along with numerous other screen names that aren’t Jewish names) is castigating another poster for using a screen name that isn’t a Jewish name.
The WolfDecember 25, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #915780yehudayonaParticipant
Inquiring minds want to know why Shmendrick is posting in the Coffee Room instead of learning Torah.December 25, 2012 3:19 am at 3:19 am #915781
sof davar, anochi ofar v’efer, I don’t care if someone mocks me or denigrates me, adarrabah, hearing my cherpah and remaining silent is a tremendous zchus that I seek to embrace.
However, when someone attacks the kovod of Torah or kovod shamayim which includes the kollel learning of thousands of avreichim, we DARE NOT remain silent. We must call out Mi L’Hashem Elay!
My words here are not for my kovod at all, only kovod HaTorah.
BTW – someone who learns in kollel is mamesh a cheftzah of Torah and should be treated like a sefer Torah.
I sometimes hesitate as I step into the washroom – how can a living sefer Torah enter a bais kisseh? It must be so that I can make a Brocha of Asher Yotzar.December 25, 2012 4:42 am at 4:42 am #915782
Derech HaMelech, that is not what happened there.
Akuperma, disprogram yourself, please, from the Brisker shitah which you take almost ad absurdum. Where do you suggest the Chareidim get parnosah, for crying out loud?December 25, 2012 5:11 am at 5:11 am #915784
Upon further analysis:
Your words do sound a bit self-aggrandizing.
On another note:
the kollel system and denigrateDecember 25, 2012 5:26 am at 5:26 am #915785Loyal JewMember
Avreichim learn in order to sustain the world, so those who encourage them to leave are menaces to the whole tzibur. Leaving kollel has to beni done privately with guidance from one’s rebbe and tough investigation of the in-laws, not in a “job fair” run by people who think parnosso comes from them, not from Hashem r”l. As for the Zionist economy, if you’re paying taxes then you’re supporting chillul Shabbos, tarbus ra’a and all the rest. That’s what “Mafteach” is encouraging and the protesters are 100% right.December 25, 2012 11:20 am at 11:20 am #915787
Food for thought: if someone had disdain for the kollel system and wanted to share it in the CR, what better way could there be than posting outrageously haughty and condescending statements in supposed support of the kollel system, and put down anyone who isn’t part of it? If such a thing would hypothetically happen, does anyone think some people might, a bit naively, fall for it and engage in serious discussion? (I know that I’ve been gullible.)December 25, 2012 11:49 am at 11:49 am #915788
Oh, and using multiple screen names would enhance the illusion that this is the way the majority of kollel yungerleit feel and talk.December 25, 2012 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #915789
As for the Zionist economy, if you’re paying taxes then you’re supporting chillul Shabbos, tarbus ra’a and all the rest.
So is it an Averah to Pay Taxes since you are paying for Chilul Shabos?December 25, 2012 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #915790
DaasYochid – I’ve come to wonder whether or not we are witnessing some brilliant double/triple/quadruple-bluffing. Are some posters so ironic they come across as real or so real they come across as ironic? Are they caricatures that are so well drawn they look like ugly portraits or portraits so ugly they look like caricatures? Hmmmm…December 25, 2012 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #915791
Z’sDad: I don’t like to agree with the troll, though my posek told me that its a mitzvah in Israel to not pay taxes if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. Unfortunately, I never performed that mitzvah yet.December 25, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #915792
tO: MDD: “Where do you suggest the Chareidim get parnosah, for crying out loud?”
1. Employment as teachers and support personnel in Israel’s world famous yeshiovos. Jerusalem and Bnei Brak (and other places) are to yeshivos, what Oxford and Cambridge are to England, or what Cambridge, Mass., Morningside Heights in Manhattan, or Hyde Park in Chicago, etc., are to universities. Would you ask why so many people in Oxford are “unemployed” because they are sitting around in scholarly pursuits.
2. Selling things to, and making goods and services for other Hareidim. Many people whom the Israeli government regards as full time students are gainfully employed, but are evading taxes (and also evading military service), but that’s a different issue (on professional versus conscript armies).
3. Working for goyim (or frei Jews). This is relatively hard in Israel since most good jobs require one to be a veteran of the army – something not a factor in other countries since in almost all countries the military is professional rather than conscripted. If you apply international trade theory to intercommunal economics, the relatively low percentage of frum Jews working for (or selling things to) goyim is the cause of relative poverty.December 25, 2012 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #915793jewishnessParticipant
There is another point whichis not being addressed. Even if you claim that these haraidim protesting at a job fair are somehow correct in OPINION how is there justification for their ACTIONS? What ever happened to the sin of shaming others in public? Does that part of Torah count or only the parts that make us look better than the next guy?
Do you think they went through all the steps of the chofetz chaim before speaking up negativity about others? Making sure to know all facts inside and out, not exaggerate, first try and speak to them privately, be lishmah etc etc etc
Here, the argument that we are dealing with non religious or anti religious does not apply. These are Torah abiding citizens. And besides, everyone knows that the method they are just get the other side worked up and more dedicated to their own opinion as can be seen where they start taunting back at them and singing and dancing.
This is the most shelo lishmah thing ever and they probably lost their share in the After-world for shaming publicly (that’s gotta suck) (assuming they did not lose it already ions ago).December 25, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #915794TheBearIsBackMember
LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Even I can’t come up with a line like that! Come on, he’s having fun at your expense if you take him seriously.
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