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Israel and the US is quite different. In Israel many organizations would not survive without the national service.
Ifti and others, we are not joining their army because the gedolim instruct that it’s against the Torah. That is quite enough.
Truthsharer, that’s only because they already have it; otherwise they’d manage fine, either by paying workers, or through volunteers.
There’s no reasonable cause to pull bochurim out of yeshivah.
LJ, if you don’t try to understand the rationale of the gedolim, you’re missing out. “Torah hi v’tzorich ani lilmod”.
So, what you guys are saying is that the ideal lifestyle is not to work, not to serve the state in any capacity, and just live off the government and sit and learn all your life (or perhaps work off the books as well)?
Is that really what you believe??????
ifti99:
We believe the ideal lifestyle for one who can learn all their life is for them to, yes, learn all their life. The people who can’t learn all their life will work and serve in the army.
“I learn Daf Yomi, and it is pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanaim and amoraim held regular jobs. Rashi was a winemaker. Rambam was a doctor.”
It is also fairly obvious that not one of the Tanaim, Amaraim, or Rishonim used electricity. The reason for this is also fairly obvious; in that day and age, it simply wasn’t possible. It also wasn’t possible to survive without going to work, so they worked. But today, if one is learning and can survive without working, why work?
“Meanwhile, some people seem to think that since they were not in favor of the country, the govt has no right to make them serve in the army. Are you kidding me? If you lived in Egypt or Italy or Greece or any other country and they drafted you, do you really think you could refuse with the excuse that you are learning full time???”
There is no draft in Egypt, Italy, or Greece. And if they (or Britain, or America) had taken control of the land in 1948, we wouldn’t have one either. If the Medina had never been created, the Arabs would never have been so keen on “driving all the Jews into the sea”. and we wouldn’t be fighting wars on such a constant basis.
It is also fairly obvious that not one of the Tanaim, Amaraim, or Rishonim used electricity. The reason for this is also fairly obvious; in that day and age, it simply wasn’t possible. It also wasn’t possible to survive without going to work, so they worked. But today, if one is learning and can survive without working, why work?
What is likely going to happen if the Charedim are drafted but refuse to go, is not Jail term, There is no way Israel will jail 100,000 Charedim who refuse to go to the Army, However Benefits will be cut off. Meaning you will have no source of income. Poverty will be even worse than it is now. Children will starve.
Emigrating to the US wont help that, In the US they are cutting benefits too.
Ifti99, of course we believe that learning is ideal; the ol parnasah is a klalah. It’s obviously necessary, but it’s certainly not the ideal.
As far as serving the state, if you mean State, then i’m sure by now you realize that the founding of a secular state in E.Y. is a very painful thing to us.
If you mean contributing to the welfare of its inhabitants, need I remind you how Chaza”l categorize one who doesn’t believe that lomdei Torah contribute?
Kanoi Next Door, let’s get it straight. Egypt and Greece do have a conscription. UK had it till 1960.Us — till 1973.
If you don’t hold of the Medinah do not take money from them. You can’t have it both ways.
Why work!?!?!? Because insisting on staying in learning while living off the money of those who do not want anymore to support you is CHILLUL HASHEM!!!
do not type your posts all in bold
Did this guy disobey the gedolim?
no links
Kanoi: It is also fairly obvious that not one of the Tanaim, Amaraim, or Rishonim used electricity. The reason for this is also fairly obvious; in that day and age, it simply wasn’t possible. It also wasn’t possible to survive without going to work, so they worked. But today, if one is learning and can survive without working, why work?
With all due respect, do you understand how ridiculous you sound when you make such comments? The only reason you can live without working is not because you are supported by the community; rather, you are living off the backs of everyone who works. So, you are saying it is actually permissable and even preferred to live off charity than to work. I will tell you that this view completely goes against the Torah. I am not talking about some individual boy who is supported by his family. What you are saying is that is preferable NOT to work and live off everyone else! In the US, we call such people moochers and parasites.
Let’s take this a step further. What if everyone took your advice? How would anyone live??????
BTW, your comments about the medinah are just plain wrong. The state was established in 1948. If what you say about the Arabs is true, please explain the riots in 1920, 1929 and 1936 were about. Please also explain why all Ashkenazic Jews were barred from Yerushalyim for over 100 years in the 17th century. Please also explain the reason for the Arab pogroms in Hebron and Tzsfas in 1834, when Zionism as a movement did not even exist!
ifti99
To use analogy from Animal Farm:
Da’as Yochid, whom you want to convince with that ma’amar Chazal? The frei? The MO who do not want to support all those people in learning anymore? What about the Chillul HaShem?
Please elucidate what is exactly the Chillul Hashem. As everyone understand (chilonim included) not everyone is born to be an accountant or to work a steady job, in fact some people like to be musicians or artists, on the average they don’t become rich (only a few make handsome money to support themselves and their families), they use benefits that law provides, and of course no one would attempt to force them into a different career path, even demeaning them is unheard of since the early days of Breznev………..
If there were robots which take care of every task human beings need, if all factories and vehicles were completely automated, if there were peace and friendship (quot. Brezhnev) with Arabs and everyone else, abundant money and nothing lacking for anyone on earth, still there would be complaints. Perhaps people would try to stir up “compassion” for the “exploited” machines and found a golem rights society. The real issue is one and only one: some people can’t stand the very existence of observant Jews.
Kanoi: Our objections to serving extend even for those not learning.
ifti99: Any Arab violence after the advent of zionism (which predates ’48) can be attributed to it. Anything pre-zionism can be attributed to golus. And we had a worse golus under the non-Arabs, pre-zionism, than we had under the Arabs.
If you want to eliminate chareidi financial benefits, first you’ll need to eliminate taxation of chareidim. And Jews tried dodging the draft in Russia and most other countries we lived in. Jews were never big volunteers in serving the military.
Bentsch,
“Any Arab violence after the advent of zionism (which predates ’48) can be attributed to it.” How about “any Arab violence after you were born can be attributed to you”? Just as logical.
“Jews were never big volunteers in serving the military”. In EY they were.
I must side with ifti99 and mdd here. Tor those who oppose, feel free to do so. That’s my opinion and so be it.
Daas Yachid: “As far as serving the state, if you mean State, then i’m sure by now you realize that the founding of a secular state in E.Y. is a very painful thing to us.
I don’t understand. So you don’t agree with the state. No one forces you to live there. This isn’t Russia, you can move. I doubt most of you were born before 1948, so the state was there when you were born. What does that have to do with obeying the law of the land? I thought you believed in dina d’malchusa dina. Perhaps you don’t?
Daas Yachid: “If you mean contributing to the welfare of its inhabitants, need I remind you how Chaza”l categorize one who doesn’t believe that lomdei Torah contribute?”
Yes, please remind me. I am aware that in Sefer Bereishis, Yaakov Avinu did things for the general population which were not even Jewish. Are you on a higher level than he was?
mdd -“Kanoi Next Door, let’s get it straight. Egypt and Greece do have a conscription. UK had it till 1960.Us — till 1973.”
Well I’m sure if Turkey was running EY -there would be No draft.
“If you don’t hold of the Medinah do not take money from them. You can’t have it both ways.”
Again Charedim aren’t second-hand citizens that have no right to social programs. Stop with the “I’m better than you argument.” The more you argue this the more you prove that Israel is similar to South Africa during Apartheid.
“Why work!?!?!? Because insisting on staying in learning while living off the money of those who do not want anymore to support you is CHILLUL HASHEM!!!”
Again sitting and learning is doing a bigger service to the country than going to the army -it protects e/o!
Go preach to your fellow Zionists about the importance of learning instead of always coming here and screaming “CHILLUL HASHEM!!
Avi K -“Any Arab violence after the advent of zionism (which predates ’48) can be attributed to it.” How about “any Arab violence after you were born can be attributed to you”? Just as logical.”
It’s logical because there is no other reason to say why all of a sudden there was a tremendous increase in hatred over the last time period since Zionism raised it’s ugly head. Also, you don’t know history -the Mufti of Yerushayim all of a sudden hatred for Jews was directly because of the Zionist activities in EY.
I don’t expect you to see the truth because you have been ingrained with the Idol of Zionism -so you are blinded to the reality!
Da’as Yochid, whom you want to convince with that ma’amar Chazal? The frei?
Most are not likely to be convinced so easily (although there are some frei who do understand the importance of limud haTorah), but we can hope that they can be made to understand that this is our sincerely held belief. I think many think we’re just making excuses (R’ Moshe Grylak wrote about this a few weeks ago in Mishpacha).
The MO who do not want to support all those people in learning anymore?
Those who really believe in divrei Chaza”l – yes. (To reiterate, I am only referring to those who are actually learning. Those who aren’t are responsible for their lack of contribution to the welfare of Klal Yisroel.)
What about the Chillul HaShem?
We’ve been through this before (although you’ve really gone off the deep end now, because we’re not currently discussing taking money). It’s not a chillul Hashem to live according to Chaza”l’s dictum. We may have an obligation to try our best to teach them what the truth is, but we certainly have no obligation to change our way of life and avodas Hashem because of the apikorsus permeating secular culture (which has unfortunately made major headway even into the mindset of some shomer Shabbos Yidden). Quite the contrary. We must stand strong in our beliefs.
ifti99: chareidim lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists came or were even considering Uganda for their homeland. If anyone should leave, it is they. (And look around NY. A lot of chilonim have long emigrated.) This is besides the fact that no other country will accept a million Israeli citizens to move there.
ifti99 -“What does that have to do with obeying the law of the land? I thought you believed in dina d’malchusa dina. Perhaps you don’t?”
You’re joking -aren’t you? Since when does a Medina based on Kefira have a Din of Malchus?!?!
So you don’t agree with the state. No one forces you to live there.
The secular have no right to make a government in Eretz Yisroel which runs contrary to Torah and then say that those loyal to the Torah should get out.
Yes, please remind me.
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??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????
Don’t compare ???? ?”? ????? to ?? ???? ?”? ?????
You’re joking -aren’t you? Since when does a Medina based on Kefira have a Din of Malchus?!?!
LOL 🙂 What do you think Shapur I (the Great) believed?
It’s not a sincerely held belief. It’s a recent invention belief.
“Well I’m sure if Turkey was running EY -there would be No draft.”
Actually, the Ottoman Empire had a stringent conscription program for Muslims and Christians from the 14th century to 1908. Some Christians could avoid it by paying an extra tax, but the Ottomans forcibly abducted Christian children and converted them to Islam as slave-soldiers. (And you thought the Czar’s canonist programs was awful.) Jews avoided Ottoman conscription completely until the Young Turks revolution in 1909, after which all Ottoman subjects became subject to the draft and many Jews did serve in the Ottoman Army during WW1. The best known example was Moshe Sharett, who later became the second Prime Minister of Israel.
The Turkish Republic has mandatory military service today.
Let’s see, truthsharer vs. Chaza”l. I think I know whose side I’m on.
BTW, thanks for demonstrating my point.
You can insult all you want. I’m the one with thousands of years of mesorah on my side.
“You’re joking -aren’t you? Since when does a Medina based on Kefira have a Din of Malchus?!?!”
No, I’m serious. So, according to you, does any nation have a din of malchus? Do feel any obligation to pay taxes or observe the laws of the country you live in? Or not?
“the Mufti of Yerushayim all of a sudden hatred for Jews was directly because of the Zionist activities in EY.”
I can’t believe that in an Orthodox Jewish site someone is making apologies for one of the worst anti-Semites of the 20th century, a man who was a Nazi collaborator and war criminal.
bentch: “ifti99: chareidim lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists came or were even considering Uganda for their homeland. If anyone should leave, it is they. (And look around NY. A lot of chilonim have long emigrated.) This is besides the fact that no other country will accept a million Israeli citizens to move there.”
Your point is irrelevant. Many people lived in Israel before the chareidim. So what? Taking your analogy further, it would seem that the Native Americans should have absolutely no obligation to observe American law. They should just be able to attack and scalp their enemies, right? After all, they were here first.
The point is, it doesn’t matter who was there first. Governments and countries change hands throughout history. You can’t get out of the laws by claiming you were there first. Try making that argument in Austria in 1938 after the Ancsluss.
Also, just for the record: We shall outlive you.
ifti99: Great point about the Native Americans. In fact, the law exempts them from the draft and grants them autonomy and sovereignty precisely because they were here long before the Europeans. Thanks for pointing that out. We should carry over that example to the Chareidim in EY.
And, btw, the Ran in Nedarim paskins that dina dmalchusa does NOT apply to anyone in EY precisely because every Jew has an absolute G-d given right to live in EY, and the reason dina dmalchusa applies in other countries is because in return for the malchus granting Jews the right to live there we must obey (certain) their non-discriminatory laws that don’t violate halacha. In EY we have the halachic right to live there independent of any dina dmalchisa obligation. In chutz we don’t have that right.
charliehall -“The Turkish Republic has mandatory military service today.”
I haven’t spoken to you in a couple of years – did you retire? Ah -the Memories.
I had this discussion with MDD previously.
First, I asked does Turkey draft Jews nowadays?
Second, I still don’t think if they had EY now they would draft the Jews there because they might Not be considered loyal subjects.
ifti99 -“No, I’m serious. So, according to you, does any nation have a din of malchus? Do feel any obligation to pay taxes or observe the laws of the country you live in? Or not?”
I don’t know, but what I do know is that Medinas Yisroel -aka the “Medina” definitely does Not have this Din!
charliehall -“I can’t believe that in an Orthodox Jewish site someone is making apologies for one of the worst anti-Semites of the 20th century, a man who was a Nazi collaborator and war criminal.”
Reread my post -I never apologized for him. What I said was he became that way because he was incited by the Zionist Movement!
I used to be a regular poster on this site but the coffee room has been taken over by extremist posters, who are more in tune with Iran than with the Jewish people and who have all the time in the world (they don’t work either, obviously). I am not going to stoop to argue senseless arguments…all I will say is to look what is happening in Eretz Ysroel and its many successes, truly a real jewish state. it is enough to give violent nightmares to ” Health,gavra at work, the (whatever) bear,and all the other loons on this site!
jechi hamelech hamoshiach leolom voed!
Da’as Yochid, to claim bittul Torah when the reason they are able to learn is because the frei are forced to pay for the Chareidi learning is outrageous and Chillul HaShem! Nowhere do Chazal tell us to go and force people to support us in kollel against their will. It is you who has gone off the deep end because of your frume negioyos.
I’m the one with thousands of years of mesorah on my side.
Indeed, even in the times of the gemara there were people, such as ??? ??? ?????? ????.
Whose mesorah do you have?
I’m really not trying to insult you, but you can’t go on saying that the lomdei Torah are not “sharing the burden” without the obvious being pointed out .
So, D.Y., if a baal ha’bais supports a yungerman in learning and then says that he can’t or won’t do it anymore, the yungerman should go and besiege the baal ha’baises house till he agrees to lay out the cash?
D.Y., they do contribute, but you can’t force somebody else to support you in kollel.
ROB: Come on, I’m not that bad, am I? 🙂
gavra at work: thank the good Lord forsome humor!! sorely needed on this site! actually I meant popa, toi, daniela and all the other moon worshippers (figure that one out). I don’t see oomis11o5 here either= she must have felt the same as I did. I wish some of the posters (young ones, for sure) should look at the real world sometimes..not the fictitious one they imagine to exist..
What if the army truly did need the chareidim? Would they still refuse to serve?
ROB -“I used to be a regular poster on this site but the coffee room has been taken over by extremist posters, who are more in tune with Iran than with the Jewish people”
See that’s your mistake. People who have a Mesorah against Zionists in your mind is Iran. Actually this Mesorah is based from Gedolims’ Shittos. Yes, some in the Klal did go for the Medina, but Most Gedolim were against it, even if they joined it like the Agudah.
And you say we have to belong to the Jewish people. I assume you mean the Majority of the Jewish people. No, we won’t give into Buses on Shabbos and Goyim getting getting papers saying they are Jewish or citizens of Israel or people getting married against Halacha. The Jewish people and the Torah are one. So we are the Jewish people, not the Zionists. We have not sold our principles like the MO’s who have joined forces with Lapid in destroying (at least trying to) the Jewish face of Israel. They think being in power is more important than the Torah. They will learn the hard way.
ifti99:
“With all due respect, do you understand how ridiculous you sound when you make such comments?”
Aha. So you claim that we can’t take government aid because Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t, and I’m the one being ridiculous?
“The only reason you can live without working is not because you are supported by the community; rather, you are living off the backs of everyone who works. So, you are saying it is actually permissable and even preferred to live off charity than to work.”
No, it is preferable to live off perfectly legal government programs and learn full time than to work.
“BTW, your comments about the medinah are just plain wrong. The state was established in 1948. If what you say about the Arabs is true, please explain the riots in 1920, 1929 and 1936 were about. Please also explain why all Ashkenazic Jews were barred from Yerushalyim for over 100 years in the 17th century. Please also explain the reason for the Arab pogroms in Hebron and Tzsfas in 1834, when Zionism as a movement did not even exist!”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-resisting-the-zionist-draft/page/3#post-445029
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-resisting-the-zionist-draft/page/4#post-445372
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-resisting-the-zionist-draft/page/4#post-445426
“No one forces you to live there. This isn’t Russia, you can move.”
The Chareidim have just as much of a right to the land as the Zionists do. Would you be singing the same tune if the Chareidim passed a law that nobody could go to work?
“I am aware that in Sefer Bereishis, Yaakov Avinu did things for the general population which were not even Jewish. Are you on a higher level than he was?”
I just love when people quote random stories from Tanach that have nothing to do with the subject at hand… And a with a nice dose of “how dare you!”, too. A true classic.
ROB:
“I used to be a regular poster on this site but the coffee room has been taken over by extremist posters, who are more in tune with Iran than with the Jewish people… all the other loons on this site!”
Right. Because you’re being the very picture of the calm, reasonable non-extremist here yourself, with all your insults and name-calling.
mdd:
“Da’as Yochid, to claim bittul Torah when the reason they are able to learn is because the frei are forced to pay for the Chareidi learning is outrageous and Chillul HaShem!”
Says you. The Gedolim clearly disagree.
“if a baal ha’bais supports a yungerman in learning and then says that he can’t or won’t do it anymore, the yungerman should go and besiege the baal ha’baises house till he agrees to lay out the cash?”
If you really can’t see the difference between taking government aid that one is legally entitled to and laying siege to people’s houses, I’m not even going to bother trying to pointing it out to you.
health- you are just proving what i said.You live in an imaginary world that looks at anything beyond your “arba amos’ as ‘treif”.
It is too tiresome to regurgitate the old argument about zionism ,the medinah, the second world war…etc…I look at facts- and all within the confines of a halachic/jewish society. The image that you are painting about eretz Yisroel is far off the truth and anyone having lived there knows it. Sure, there are chilonim and sure, there are those who want to repudiate any religious influence- but look at what the medinah really is: a thriving jewish society, with -at least- one quarter shomrei shabbos and growing, and probably 80% having some reasonable jewish life. Contrast that to the US= you have scarcely 10% shomrei shabbos and probably 80% who do NOT know what their jewish roots are. I am much more optimistic about the continuation of jewish life in eretz yisroel than anywhere in the world,nothwithstanding your jeremiads about how bad the medinah is. jechi hamelech hamoshiach leolom vo-ed!
Kanoi: No, it is preferable to live off perfectly legal government programs and learn full time than to work.
I totally totally disagree with this attitude on so many levels that I can’t even begin. All I will say is this: If you truly believe that what Hashem wants is for all Chareidi Jews to refuse to work (legally) and just live on tzedakah, we live in different worlds. I guess you can try to justify your decision any way you like, twisting and turning whomever supports this untenable position, but anyone who has more than a eighth grade education will realize that this is totally unsustainable. Do you realize that in Israel and America, the view of chareidi life gets more negative every day? All we see are people who demonstrate against other religious Jews in Ramat Bet Shemesh, shnooring money to marry off their children, and refusing to do anything to help other Jews other than themselves. Is it any wonder there is so much hostility against them? At some point, you are going to realize that not only is this lifestyle completely unsustainable, but goes completely against Hashem’s will. I’m sorry, but thats what most of non-chareidi Jews believe.
Your other comments like ” The Chareidim have just as much of a right to the land as the Zionists do. Would you be singing the same tune if the Chareidim passed a law that nobody could go to work?” are even more insane. Is that really what you want? Pass a law that no one should work? All you are doing is playing into every negative stereotype against you. Although it saddens me to see this, I was not surprised by the union of Bennett and Lapid. Your stance toward everytyhing non-chareidi has managed to turn even other religious Jews against you. So sad…….
Kanoi, if we were talking about a country which gives out these financial benefits and the general population does not mind people taking them to stay in kollel, I would agree with you. If the general public objects and has ta’anos, then it’s Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos.
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