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  • #1702067
    Joseph
    Participant

    Sechel: Lubavitchers look down upon Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Aharon Feldman and Rabbi Hershel Schachter?

    #1702077
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    surely you know that for obvious reasons no Lubavitcher will pay too much attention to what they think about us.

    The “obvious reasons” being that they are critical of Chabad.

    #1702461
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Daasyochid, yes, it’s epistemic closure. Any gadol who points out the obvious is no longer a gadol. And thus they get trapped into avoda zara r”l

    Sechel hayashar, a google search will reveal the quote from Rav Menashe Klein zt”l where he says that.
    CR won’t allow me to post the link but let Google be your friend. It’s there.
    Here’s the quote:
    Crown Heights, NY – Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.

    In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.”

    The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.

    “This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”

    His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.

    Klein continues to write: “Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers ‘Yechi… King Moshiach’ which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM.”

    Anyusername open, saying “you don’t understand chassidus” is kind of dumb. I don’t need to understand chassidus. I need to understand the ikkarim.
    If it sounds like avoda zara/ violation of ikkarim, and the gedolim agree with me, then there’s no need to consider it further. Yes, I’m aware you have highly nuanced answers to say it’s not avoda zara. But you are forced to agree that, if interpreted like me, it’s avoda zara. And hanisayon yoreh that many Lubavitchers do in fact cross these lines.
    Find me another chassidus that says Der Rebbe vet helfn or says that their Rebbe didn’t die, other than the culty sects. If it’s mainstream chassidus, it should exist. And it doesn’t. You guys are the only ones on this path of human worship.

    Litvishkeit is yiddishkeit without shailas. We have a kesher to Hashem and daven to Hashem. And we still have moshiach, just he has to actually fulfill the conditions in the Rambam, namely being alive and actually building the beis hamikdash instead of making up a silly vort to turn a building in Brooklyn into a beis hamikdash.

    #1702543

    MenevilleChaimBerlin ” apparently not all poskim agree that heicha mincha is b’deived. Goan brought a proof ealier from the Beis Yosef I think.”

    Here is the “hetter” from Bais Yossef, it is indeed “proof”, but read it carefully to see if it is a “hetter” or an “issur”!

    Bais Yossef staes:

    אבל הספרדים אין נוהגים לחזור ש”ץ התפלה במנחה אלא מתפלל ש”ץ עם הציבור בקול רם ואומר קדושה וברכת אתה קדוש ואח”כ אומר האמצעיות בלחש עם הציבור ומתחיל רצה בקול רם וגומר תפלתו בקול רם ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו בצפ”ת תוב”ב

    And indeed ends:
    ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו
    וגזרו לעובר על תקנתם yet the Litvish Yeshivos are עובר על תקנתם daily?!

    #1702552
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    I never said you don’t understand I said first we have to figure out what your question is and once that question falls off all your questions go all the way as well

    Obviously if you don’t understand the concept of atzmus you will have questions

    Before we get into the subject of Rebbe we first have to understand general concept of atzmus

    Can we switch the the conversation on this thread for a bit just to the topic of Atzmus

    And when I say understand we’re not just talkin about according to chassidus but rather also how it fits in halacha

    Then we can continue to rebbe

    P.s. (On a side note moshiach does not have to be alive – look in the gemora there and the merforshim I quoted)

    #1702621
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    I don’t need to understand Chabad’s twisted atzmus. I need to understand the ikkarim. If atzmus contradicts ikkarim, it’s treif no matter how many times you say otherwise. I don’t waste my time understanding the Trinity. Why should I waste my time on the Rebbe’s kefira?

    Yes, you may have a more charitable reading of atzmus to not be deification. Unfortunately, the behavior of Chabadniks as noted shows that charitable definitions are just palliatives for the outsiders, not intrinsic Chabad beliefs. My view of it is backed up by both gedolim and the behavior of Chabad, which indicates that peshuto kemashma’o, that the Rebbe turned himself into a god and is worshipped kind of like a god. Said gedolim and said behavior noted above.

    Again, the 1979 siacha asked how can you daven to a rebbe? The answer was the Rebbe is the same as G-d chalila afra lepumei. This DIRECTLY contradicts the ikkarim and says nivra=borei. Some chabadniks do say adoneinu boreinu so they eliminate the fig leaf that there’s a difference. Good for them- at least they’re being more intellectually honest about their avoda zara.
    But let’s prove it to all you chabadniks. To prove it, all you have to do is substitute “the eigel” for the Rebbe for typical chabad phrases and it sounds the same. The eigel will help, the eigel runs the world, etc. If it wasn’t avoda zara , it should fail.

    #1702622
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    About the line that moshiach doesn’t have to be alive:

    Growing up, all i heard was how every generation has a moshiach and Chabad said their guy is the one that best fits the generation’s moshiach. So based on the chabad of my youth, once the Rebbe died 25 years ago there was a new candidate. So it’s a machlokes the chabad of my youth and current chabad if the Rebbe is moshiach. The chabad of my youth would declare that only christians believe in dead moshiachs, and anyone who died was clearly not the moshiach. The Chabad of my youth would say that the random wackos in yerushalayim claiming to be moshiach are better candidates than the “heintigger” (previous) rebbe.

    Of course, the “Stump the rabbi” video says that all chabadskers believe the Rebbe is alive, just a question of whether or not to publicize it.

    As for the gemaras that the moshiach can be dead, there is also a gemara that there is no moshiach. And the Rambam says moshiach can’t be dead. The Rambam is the pillar of Chabad halacha, so you can’t disown him for this halacha once it becomes inconvenient. the Rambam says moshiach is alive, just like Chabad said 30 years ago.

    #1702623
    RSo
    Participant

    Rebbetzin: ““the issue isn’t so much about SHAVING or Hoicha Kedusha at MINCHA as in saying that it is the best way of acting when the Gemoro and ALL poskim say otherwise. The same with eating Cholov Akum where it is permitted when needed, and not as a blanket minhag.”

    A bit of a double standard, don’t you think?!”

    No.
    1. No one who I know that shaves says that it is a higher madreiga than growing a beard. No one who davens a hoicha kedusha says it is a higher madreiga than davening a full Mincha. No one who eats cholov stam (NO ONE is mattir cholov akum) says it is a higher madreiga than eating only cholov Yisroel.
    2. There is no explicit Chazal against shaving in a permitted manner. There is an explicit Chazal that you have to sleep only in a sukkah. The same goes for there being no specific Chazal to say a full Mincha and not to eat cholov stam.

    So the comparison is warped.

    Furthermore, just out of interest, there are choshuve seforim that say that in the olden times people would shave davka and leave the payos in order to be mekayem the mitzva of leaving payos. See the second pshat in Rashi to Kerisus 5b d”h Mesaper. Later we forgot the exact location of the payos so we stopped shaving, and there are also reasons al pi kabboloh.

    #1702625
    RSo
    Participant

    “P.s. (On a side note moshiach does not have to be alive – look in the gemora there and the merforshim I quoted)”

    And as I have pointed out a number of times on both threads no matter how you learn the Gemoro the lubavicher rebbe does not fit as moshiach.

    If you learn like the first pshat in Rashi and you want to say moshiach is someone who has died THEN IT WAS DONIEL and no one else.

    If you want to learn like the second pshat in Rashi, then moshiach HAS TO BE SOMEONE ALIVE.

    At last count the lubavicher rebbe wasn’t alive (according to a silent majority) and he was not Doniel. So, according to the Gemoro that YOU quote in support, he CANNOT BE MOSHIACH. To “interpret” the Gemoro there differently without any other early source IS apikorsus because it makes a mockery of Rashi and Chazal.

    And once again, the Maharsho which you quote does not explain the Gemoro differently.

    #1702653
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Reb:
    Granted, the quote is not as I remembered it from Gaon’s posting, but that’s still not an issur.

    If your point is just that we have kulos, chabad has kulos, so we should stop throwing stones in glass houses, then that would be fine, but that’s not what the discussion is about for me. We aren’t trying to get you guys to shave or daven heicha minchah (which, by the way, is not as prevalent as these threads are making it seem). I’m fine with labelling these things as “kulos” or being “meikel.” Are you willing to do the same with not sleeping in the sukkah? Or, do you use the lashon of all Lubavitchers that you’re “strict” to not sleep in the sukkah? It’s not about semantics/word-choice; it’s the fact that you’re choosing your wording out of a sense of extreme elitism.

    #1702655
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    (When the Goyim came into the Beis Hamikdosh and saw the Keruvim, they dragged them outside and showed everybody “what the Jews really worship”. Yirmiyah Hanavie didn’t bother answering them, because the answer is not as simple as the question. Instead he cried)

    (Once R. Zalman Moshe sat near R. Moshe Gurary by a farbrengen and demanded of him, “You are a ‘scholar.’ Tell me, what is the ‘atmzus’ that we hear about so much in chassidus?”
    R. Moshe tried to evade the question, “What can one possibly say about atzmus?”
    But R. Zalman Moshe was unrelenting, and said, you must tell us, what is atzmus?”
    Finally, R. Moshe opened his mouth and tried to explain something. But, at that moment, R. Zalman Moshe immediately turned to him again and gave a playful slap. He then said, the mere fact that it is possible to say something – that’s already not atzmus)

    When I said atzmus I obviously don’t mean you will understand Atzmus for that is something that no person can understand

    But what I do mean is that there are certain things that if you look at it with a regular eye doesn’t seem to make sense

    for example:
    1. based on the way Hashem created this world we are limited and Hashem is unlimited so how can limited affect the unlimited wouldnt that make us unlimited (obviously on hashems end that is not a question because hashem is unlimited, the question is on our end how do we see it (this part I don’t feel is the correct way to ask the question but I hope u get what I’m trying to say))

    2. About Moshe it says חציו ומעלה אלוקים חציו ומטה איש

    3. How can Moshe say ונתתי מטר ארצכם בעתו”

    4. how can the Zohar say. “מאן פני האדון הוי’, דא רשב”י How can one say such a thing about a human

    Before we continue we need to answer these questions – there has to be an answer (there are others but we will start with this)

    #1702685
    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername: “Before we continue we need to answer these questions”

    And I say before you continue defending the warped views of the majority of today’s lubavich you have to explain the general theory of relativity in terms that a ben chomeish lemikra could understand.

    What a ludicrous excuse for not facing up to the truth! You stand accused of distorting Torah so either you defend yourself or admit the truth (the latter being almost impossible for someone who has been brainwashed by modern lubavich). You don’t lay down ridiculous conditions… that is unless you think the rest of us are too stupid to realize that you can’t answer us.

    #1702690
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    “I don’t need to understand Chabad’s twisted atzmus. I need to understand the ikkarim. ”
    1. I heard you the first time and as I said, once you understand the answers everything else will be good besides for the part that we both agree is wrong
    Nothing will be twisted hopefully.
    2. As I wrote before “no one ever said it can’t be but there was no need to go down that path

    ——-
    @rso did you look in all the merforshim I quoted? Or did you not got that far in learning?

    (On a side note by saying that only denial can be moshiach if it is someone from the dead means either you never opened a gemora before or your an apikorus)

    Btw I heard a great shiur from the famous radio host dovid Lichtenstein called “revisiting our relationship with lubavitch” it might be a good idea to hear what other litvaks, and gedolim he brings down say.

    #1702692
    Chossid
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma
    Im not here to put anyone down, all I’m here is to stick up the false allegations.
    All I’m saying is that if you have a problem with Chabad, go and address it to someone in person, the CR is not the place do to let out your frustration.
    If someone is has teinois he has to explain exactly every taieneh he has and why the answer is not sufficient. If he can’t do it then we can all agree it’s loshen hara, like you agree that accusing us to be davening to the Rebbe, is false.
    They maybe stuff that “sounds” (in LT words) radical, but if you look for clarification it makes sense.

    #1702693
    Chossid
    Participant

    I seriously going to the time to keep up with all the comments, how do you guys have the time?.

    #1702701
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ anyusernameopen

    The RAMCHAL has a sefer opposing SHAT”Z where he addresses and explains the agados that you are brazenly quoting on the CR and obviously misunderstanding. Unlike your contention that the subject matter is incomprehensible he actually explains what can be comprehended. Can you hazard a guess why he felt that such a sefer was necessary?

    #1702714
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Chossid – I am sorry to add one more post for you, I know it gets hard to catch up. I just want to say that I already said that I spoke to real people, also I am not frustrated about anything, I am just responding to posts. Lastly, I did not say there aren’t Chabadniks davening to the rebbe, there certainly are in my neighborhood, I just said that Chabad doesn’t condone it. So it isn’t a lie, it just is something bad people do in the name of Lubavitch. I mentioned many other things in that same post that aren’t okay but you kind of brushed over those. I find that happens a lot with legitimate questions.
    Please go ahead and respond to the others, they are discussing sources which is much more important. But please know that I *have*done my homework and I find the answers to be worse than what I had been expecting.

    #1702703
    Chossid
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin and rso?
    Have you learned the sicha yet?
    The last time I learned it I don’t remember it saying that it’s a chumrah not to sleep in the sukkka. (And anyways that won’t make sense that according to the explanation).
    It’s says it’s a minhag, and the Rebbe explains why the minhagim doesn’t oiker the halocha.

    #1702702
    Chossid
    Participant

    LerntminTayrah
    You need some major help.
    If someone believes that יעקב אבינו לא מת, is that avoida Zara? Kifira?
    When the yeddin ask moshe for food and water in the midbor, is the avoida Zara?
    If someone asks a Rebbe for a brocha for help, is that avoid Zara?
    Why was is so important to have a Moishe Rabbiu, why should we go through him, we should go straight to Hashem?
    If I believe that what the zoihar says דצדיקא דאתפטר – אשתכח בכלהו עלמין יתיר מבחיוהי , is that kifira?
    If I believe what chzal say מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים, is that kifira?
    What is life anyway?

    #1702719
    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    “Why was it so important to have Moshe Rabbeinu?” Because he was a Navi who spoke directly to Hashem. He went to Shomayim and came back. do you know anyone who could do that in 2019? There’s a ‘Hester Panim’, if you didn’t get the memo.

    #1702726
    Ysiegel
    Participant

    To chossid and others trying to be “chassidim” here:

    Have you seen the (handwritten) letter of the Rebbe (ZATZAL) stating that it is irrelevant what the name of Mashiach is? (And others similar?). And those times he refused to go out to the Lag Baomer parade because the “flaggers” of the day were there?

    And do you realize that no one of the Chassidim of the Rebbe EVER got into such nonsensical, utterly pointless bickering to prove that “my Rebbe is better than your Rebbe!”. The fact is that the only thing that comes of it is that, thanks to fires like the one you fuel here, the world at large can’t appreciate the depth behind the Rebbe’s chidushei Torah–which is the only thing the Rebbe ever really cared about in the first place, is that people should learn Torah and “toil” in it–because it’s fogged up as a result of said extremists who have nothing bettrr to do than make Lubavitch sound like a bunch of children.

    You won’t see the serious Chassidim ever getting into such childish nonsense, I promise you that. So for the general population of YWN reading these Chabad-related threads, just realize that no one on here speaks for Chabad, no one here represents Chabad’s views, and certainly no one here has the authority to do make the statements that were made (whether from one’s mashpia, I am certain, or from an actual Chabad authority, i.e. Hagaon Hachassid R’ Yoel Kahn shlit”a, Harav Krinsky shlit”a; R’ Kotlarsky, etc. etc. etc…

    And just for the record, back at page 2 of this thread I had a post ready to send, but thanks to Netspark didn’t go through (unfortunately). I copied it (since I wrote it on my phone) just in case, so here it is:

    “Great. Another Chabad thread. Let me go through exactly what’s going to happen now: someone is going to mention another issue they have with Chabad, then the Chabadskers on the site will gather to try and defend the said points, and al haderech bring up other points which will further be disputed and then it will explode into a full-on argument about Chabad and their issues. So since we already know what’s going to happen I suggest we stop right now….”

    Boom.

    #1702727
    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername: “@rso did you look in all the merforshim I quoted? Or did you not got that far in learning?”

    No. I saw the full texts of Rashi and the Maharsho which you quoted and saw that it had been distorted to mean what it definitely does not. Why should I spend my time looking for sources that you claim to support you when you were so wrong the first time. If you post the actual statements they made I will in all likelihood read them, but I’m not going to search for stuff that you quite probably misrepresent.

    Let me clarify. To say that there are sources that say moshiach can come from the dead is not something I can dispute because I don’t claim to know all sources. But to quote Rashi and the Maharsho, which you did, and to use THEM to say that it is valid to say that a dead man other than Doniel may be moshiach, which you did, is at best dumb and at worse apikorsus.

    “(On a side note by saying that only denial can be moshiach if it is someone from the dead means either you never opened a gemora before or your an apikorus)”

    I understand that “denial” is a typo and should be “Doniel”, but the rest is garbage. Read and translate Rashi and present it here for all to see how you are falsifying.

    #1702728
    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid addressing Neville and myself: “Have you learned the sicha yet?”

    No, and I have no intention of it. In fact, it doesn’t make a difference to me what he says. The fact remains that ON PRINCIPLE no lubavichers sleep in the sukkah, and that is against Chazal and halocho. I don’t care what type of spin your rebbe put on it.

    The crazy heter about being mitzta’er because, unlike the rebbe, one can fall asleep, is ridiculous and was dealt with at length in the “Geula” thread. Please read all 40+ pages and stop reiterating the old garbage.

    #1702738
    Chatzkel todres
    Participant

    Where are my posts?

    #1702782
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yseigel – thank you for that information. It does give a different perspective to everything i have been reading. Unfortunately it brings up the question why so many are so uninformed.
    But thank you.

    #1702784
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Quote
    “Anyusername: “@rso did you look in all the merforshim I quoted? Or did you not got that far in learning?”
    No. I saw the full texts of Rashi and the Maharsho which you quoted and saw that it had been distorted to mean what it definitely does not. ”

    I guess your smarter then the chasam sofer, sdei chemed and others and I need to have more respect for you
    Sorry for not giving you that respect

    (Listen to the shiur from the famous radio host dovid Lichtenstein called “revisiting our relationship with lubavitch” it might be a good idea to hear what other litvaks, and gedolim he brings down say.)
    Over and out

    #1702809
    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    @anyusername, you are going to bring rayos from David Lichtenstein? Who writes in the introduction to his book that YitzchokAvinu was mistaken (Rl) in giving the brochos to Yaakov, and we all need to be more like Eisov?!? Lubavitch doesnt need raayos from people like him. Everybody knows the Rebbe is the Rebbe, and all the arguing is just Amoleik shebikirbom! No proofs needed!

    #1702818
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Any – so i figured id go to that radio episode and it doesn’t seem you heard it correctly. Outside of the host who not only supported chabad but wanted to believe the others did as well, nobody else gave anything more than a “yes, they are brothers”. And since the host was the one who wanted to show support, AND he was the one who edits all these clips (alone or with staff i assume) there really is no way of knowing what really was said. Granted rabbi kamenetsky saying you are brothers does say you arent ovdei avoda zora ch”v, but he uses that same lashon for otd teens and tinokos shenishbu.
    Other guests did not even grant that much and a few were unclearly clear that there is definitely a problem that they seemed uninterested in discussing in detail. Where they just alluding to meshichists or all chabad? I dont think you could be positive either way.
    So aside from the host giving hakaras hatov for all that he benefitted, im confused why you thought this was a good thing to bring up as support from the velt.

    #1702901
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @sl
    You missed the point that I was trying to make out I quoted the radio show not regarding the fact to say how gedolim like lubavich. yes I did mention you will hear what the gedolim say but what I meant was to show from the Gamora which is about 10 minutes in (it was for @rso)

    Now you’re going to say that he cut and pasted from different rabbis a word here in a word there? you can see that about anything in life

    We don’t need proof from other people to say how Lubavitch is good
    Wtvr

    #1702908
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    (Listen to the shiur from the famous radio host dovid Lichtenstein called “revisiting our relationship with lubavitch” it might be a good idea to hear what other litvaks, and gedolim he brings down say.)

    yes I did mention you will hear what the gedolim say but what I meant was to show from the Gamora which is about 10 minutes in

    #1702942
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Chossid:
    OK, if the sicha is as you present it, then you can put your money where your mouth is and put a stop to this whole entire discussion. Repeat after me:
    “Chabad is meikel with regards to sleeping in the Sukkah.”

    #1703003
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    The whole sukka vs shaving and hoyche kedusha thing is a red herring.

    Yes, there is such a thing as Moshe Rabbeinu who was Hashem’s shaliach. Mosh Rabbeinu went out of his way to not say he was Hakadosh Baruch Hu, and went out of his way to tell people not to daven to him. The Rambam knew about Moshe Rabbeinu and still wrote his 13 ikkarim. So clearly there is no stirah between Moshe Rabbeinu and the 13 ikkarim. In fact, chazal tell us that Moshe Rabbeinu’s kever was hidden so they WOULDN’T pray to him. I guess you’re saying the Rambam didn’t read the Torah and had no clue about Moshe Rabbeinu when he wrote the 13 ikkarim, but then why do Rambam Yomi if you believe the Rambam was so mistaken?

    The rest of klal yisroel has accepted the 13 ikkarim as ikkarim, and NO other chassidus says about their Rebbe what Chabad says. Satmar chassidim love their Rebbe but don’t say der rebbe vet helfn. They don’t make their rebbe a god. I appreciate the hodaas baal din that you don’t hold of the Rambam’s 13 ikkarim, however.

    Syag, thanks for the backup about people praying to the Rebbe. It PROVES that many understand atzmus kepshuto.

    Would you chabadskers agree that the Jews who say “adoneinu boreinu” or say “Rebbe YHVH” are wrong?
    Just asking.

    #1703113
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    @ nevile
    Its completely reasonable for one to say that he is lax regarding shina b’sukkah but nevertheless makpid with regards to Teishvu k’ein Taduru (Hence the makpid on shehakol aspect). The Gemara says that the chachomim would nap on the shoulders of each other by the simchas beis hashoaivah and i dont think its because they were meikel in Teishvu….

    #1703115
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    @ lerntmin tayrah
    good points but dumb last question, of course they would condemn it. i spent a long time in heichal menachem and i know alooot of lubavitchers.

    #1703120
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    @ anyusername
    before you go on with your explanation i would like to ask you 2 questions.
    is that ok with you?

    #1703134
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    @ lernt min
    just so you shouldnt misunderstand me, no lubavitcher davens to the rebbe, as in having him in mind when sayin baruch ata… its unheard of.

    #1703136
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    but i have heard of lubavithcers saying meisiach lefi tumam that they know of other lubavitchers who speak to the rebbe randomly even when they are not by the ohel, and it didnt seem like they thought there was anything wrong with it.

    #1703138
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    I for one dont think thats avoda zara, i just find it bizarre and out of line.

    #1703165
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    @lernt min
    there is an obvious difference between saying der rebbe vet helfn and other similar nonsense, to der eigel vet helfn. The rebbe is looked at as a leader of klal yisroel (by lubavitchers) because of his commitment to torah and mitzvos and Hashem. Therefore there is no practical mistake of switching him for God and on the contrary and on the contrary, his only existence is to bring you close to Hashem. Therefore, saying der rebbe vet helfn cannot be considered avoda zara until there is evidence that they have replaced God. (criteria for evidence of avoda zara can be a different, more conducive and practical disscusion)

    #1703176
    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    However, the eigel was made with the cheshbon that hashem is above and beyond us, incapable of connecting to us on his Awesome terms and therefore we need to consider something holy without hashem commanding us and that will be our god ch’v. However when he commands you, its not about the command, tefillin are holy not because cow skins are holy, but because its a commandment of hashem. This goes for the whole Yiddishkeit, and its immediately recognized without cheshbon and question that this the case. This difference is evidenced in the fact that they said “eile elokecha yisroel asher hotziacha meieretz mitzrayim”-they replaced the cow for hashem.

    #1703218
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    BneiBrak, that was just the eiruv rav. Klal yisroel used the eigel as an emtzai, the same words the sicha says the Rebbe is for- an emtzai who is one with Hashem so there’s no violation of davening to someone other than Hashem because thanks to atzmus, the Rebbe and Hashem are one and the same (sic!)

    Syag, whose reputaion here in the CR is sterling, said he saw it. I have seen people say it. Google daven to the Rebbe and you will see others. It makes sense, as it’s pashut pshat in atzmus. And pashut pshat in atzmus is keneged the 13 ikkarim.

    I’m sure there are teirutzim. And you can’t be on sanhedrin without being able to be metaher a sheretz. But yet the sheretz remains tamei, and our gedolim say to ignore these farfetched teirutzim and read the ikkarim kepshutan, which puts most of Chabad as michutz lamachaneh.
    The ikkarim were written to help Jews confused by Christians and other meshichist groups. If they say the moshiach is part of God, it’s out. If they say daven to someone other than Hashem (which the sicha from 1979 says explicitly,) it’s out. The saying of yechi reflects this view of the Rebbe as super being. So does saying Der Rebbe vet helfn. So does bowing down to empty chairs as if the Rebbe is still in there. It’s not LMT saying this, it’s the gedolim kana”l. And that’s why switching der rebbe for der eigel is so effective. It breaks you out of the nonsense and makes you realize you have turned your rebbe into an eigel, an intermediary to Hashem instead of davening to Hashem Himself.

    #1703235
    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername to me: “I guess your smarter then the chasam sofer, sdei chemed”

    No. But it makes me smart enough not to rely on anything you don’t directly copy and paste because of the way you have warped pshat in Rashi and the Maharsho. As I wrote you: present what they say and I’ll probably look at it. Citing names in the past has just shown you to be a falsifier.

    Syag replying to Anyusername: “So aside from the host giving hakaras hatov for all that he benefitted, im confused why you thought this was a good thing to bring up as support from the velt.”

    What’s the confusion? Clearly Anyusername is the type of lubavicher who can hear someone say it’s hot outside and cite it as a proof that it’s cold.

    #1703291
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @rso
    all ur saying is ur scared to open a safer and look
    How are you even arguing if you never opened a safer?

    As far as the radio show how about listen to it instead of hearing other ppls opinion or are you scared to do that too?.

    Just shows how ppl argue just say boich sevoros just for the sake of arguing (I know ull say im choshud for making things up – thats fine if you say that. but dont tell me I’m wrong or crazy without looking at what I brought)
    Say I’m making things up!

    Just for the inyan
    שדי חמד פאת השדה מערכת האל”ף כללים אות ע
    Abarbanel – yeshuos meshicho iyun 2 ch. 1 – from artscroll

    #1703351
    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername, I finally got hold of a שדי חמד and found the source you are citing. What does this have to do with your manner of “explaining” (read: distorting) the Gemoro and saying that in Sanhedrin 98b it says that a dead person OTHER THAN DONIEL can be Moshiach.

    Furthermore, allow me to quote the Sdei Chemed in that very section:
    וצריך להיות בכל דור הא’ הראוי אם יזכו הוא יהי’ השליח ע”י אלי’ ואם לא יזכו יהי’ כשאר הצדיקים בלא הפרש ובמת ר”ל אחד צ”ל אחר בדור במקומו שיהי’ ראוי ע”ד דאמרו בקידושין ע”ב וזרח השמש ובא השמש כו’ יעו”ש

    Note: the Sdei Chemed says explicitly that if the person of a generation who was suitable to be Moshiach DIES (he does not say “killed” as many lubavichers try to claim based on the lashon of the Rambam) then someone else in the generation takes his place.

    So if you believe that the lubavicher rebbe died, then according to the Sdei Chemed (the edition I’m using is published by none other than the lubavicher publishing house which at the time was under the direction of the then future, now late, lubavicher rebbe, who even signs his name at the end of the introduction) you have to believe that someone else alive is the suitable candidate. And if you believe he is still alive… you are at best a looney and at worst an apikorus.

    #1703437
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Its completely reasonable for one to say that he is lax regarding shina b’sukkah”
    Yet, notice how no Lubavitcher will ever say it.

    “all ur saying is ur scared to open a safer and look
    How are you even arguing if you never opened a safer?”
    The argument is how the shittah fits into the Jewish tradition, not the Chabad tradition. Using seforim from the Rebbe is totally circular logic. Why are we having to tell this to grown adults? This would be like saying, “I’m going to defend Bernie Sanders’ position by bringing, as a proof, an excerpt from a speech made by Bernie Sanders.”

    #1703461
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    i knew that would happen if i didnt explain myself.
    i brought the sdei chemed is to show how when a tzadik is alive hes student are supposed to believe that he is moshich (quote part of it – כתבו ג״כ תלמידי האר״י ז״ל שבימיו הי׳ האר״י ז״ל) – something which i tried saying before which you couldn’t agree with (i think on page 3)

    now that that is answered with the sdei chemed we can go on where we see that meforshim hold that it can be from the dead – and not necessarily only doniel

    (im just bringing sources where you see these concepts of
    1. students believed throughout the generations that their rebbe is moshiach
    2. if moshiach is from the dead it doeasnt necessarily mean only doniel – look in abarbanel thst i quoted Where he clearly raises the possibility that Moshiach may be among those resurrected)
    now that you have the abarbanel read the first pirush in rashi again

    btw did you have a chance to listen to the shiur

    “you are at best a looney and at worst an apikorus” – why do u say these things if you never fully learnt ALL the sources about moshiach – i only quoted 2

    obviously there are many opinions on the subject but to say that someone that has backing from one but not the other is a lunatic is a bit overboard
    i dont know why we are even having this argument if you yourself said you never looked in ALL the sources about moshiach (not just the ones i quoted)
    i hope this clarify’s

    #1703475
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    quote from @ncb “all ur saying is ur scared to open a safer and look
    How are you even arguing if you never opened a safer?”
    The argument is how the shittah fits into the Jewish tradition, not the Chabad tradition. Using seforim from the Rebbe is totally circular logic”

    i hope you didnt think i was talking about sukka – i was talking to @rso

    but if you knew i was talking to @rso and still say what you say the ill say this
    i never knew the rebbe wrote the sdei chemed chasam sofer abarbanel and others i quoted

    #1703495
    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “like you agree that accusing us to be davening to the Rebbe, is false.” – @Chossid

    I’m aware of a Chabad house where there’s a big (as in HUGE) picture of the Rebbe on the Mizrach Vant. Anyone who flies from Israel can confirm this – it’s in Ben Gurion airport. People make minyanim there all the time, contrary to halacha.

    Im also aware of people who daven to the rebbe. So it’s Lashon Hara (assuming your even part of Amcha) and not Motzei Shem Ra.

    Anyways, isn’t this the second thread on this subject? Once is enough.

    #1703519
    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @ncb
    since your so into “stump the rabbi”
    theres a video there regarding sukka (6 min)
    search the word “sukka” and it should come up.

    im posting a link to the video but the @mod might take it out
    gone…

    i know your arguments regarding the fact that its only a kula etc. but i thought you might enjoy this.

    #1703567
    TheWizard
    Participant

    Neville, and rarely will you find the MO admit that they’re lax in tznius, kashrus, or dozens of other things. And will even get angry if you point that out to them. So it is human nature not to want to acknowledge weaknesses; this isn’t anything specific to Lubavitchers.

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