- This topic has 496 replies, 49 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 11 months ago by Yechi Hamelech.
March 31, 2019 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1705211
Chossid: “Mods nice for checking to zatzal.
Can you also change next time someone says the Rebbe is “dead” to the Rebbe “past away”?.
Out of respect please.”
Major difference. One is untrue. The other is true just not an expression that you’re happy with.March 31, 2019 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1705215
SHY: “Please tell me which Rosh Yeshiva or Godol “owns you”. Where is the production line that produces Sonei Yisrael as yourself? Or perhaps you are a “special edition”…
Where does a person develop such a deeply rooted animosity toward a Tzaddik, and an entire Tzibbur of Yereim U’shleimim??”
Come on. This has been rehashed so many times over both threads. Whenever someone accuses a lubavicher of disortion, falsifying or the like they are accused on being a sonei chabad or a sonei Yisroel.
Answer the questions satisfactorily and you will be listened to. The method of labeling others as sonim just makes them (us?) feel totally justified in believing that you have no answers.March 31, 2019 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1705218
SHY: “A common theme on some of these threads is, “Why can’t I directly ask Hashem for my needs, and of what use is a Rebbe, who needs a go between, I have a straight line with Hashem”
The different variations of those Taanos have been around since the dawn of Chassidus, some more elequently expressed, many less so. This is what the Rebbe is answering.”
If that would be true then there would be no need to have a sicha explaining atzmus in a guf and a rebbe not being a memutza. A simple answer that “a tzaddik’s prayers on your behalf are more likely to be accepted” would suffice, and their would never have been any room for anyone to make a mistake with the atzmus in a guf concept. A mistake that can, and occasionally does, veer into kefira (Who remembers the “Who Elokeinu? The rebbe, that’s who!”) would never have been justifiable by anyone.March 31, 2019 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1705226
Anyusernamr: “Btw do you know the history of the rambam – yes he was called a kofer, ppl burned his seforim, and made up alot of things about him………..”
And do you remember the story of yoshke/S”T/Mendelsohn/Geiger etc? If someone being called a kofer is a proof that he is not, we should all have xmas trees!
Just because B”H Klal Yisroel decided that the Rambam was not a kofer does not mean that no one should be called a kofer.March 31, 2019 8:33 am at 8:33 am #1705245
Quote “And do you remember the story of yoshke/S”T/Mendelsohn/Geiger etc? If someone being called a kofer is a proof that he is not, we should all have xmas trees!
Just because B”H Klal Yisroel decided that the Rambam was not a kofer does not mean that no one should be called a kofer.”
What I was trying to say just flew way over your head
The one who is warping things here in mefoshim is you. we both clearly saw sdei chemed/abarbanel and you, that can’t take a loss are twisting it in such a way that even I couldn’t do
Even if I triedMarch 31, 2019 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1705326
1. “Just for the record, you will not find any post of mine saying that Moshiach can’t be from someone who has died”
It’s funny how until I brought the abarbanel you said if it’s from the dead its only doniel now that I brought the abarbanel your saying that its not from sanhedrin.
But B”H we both agree that moshiach can be from the dead and not necessarily only doniel.
2. You are 100 % correct regarding the sdei chemed. Nowhere does he say its a mitzvah to believe that your rebbe is moshiach BUT he does say that in each generation there is someone that is muchsher to be moshiach and each set of talmidim said that if moshiach is the greatest person in that generation’s who is greater then our teacher which is why they said that their teacher is moshiach
וכן הוא בכל דור ודור צ”ל אחד מוכשר שמא יזכו (ועפי”ז כתבו ג”כ תלמידי הארי”זל שבימיו הי׳האריז”ל
This is after a long hemshech
(The term supposed was used in the same way I assumed u use the term apikorses – just trying to bring out your point in a very strong way)April 1, 2019 6:34 am at 6:34 am #1705845
Anyusername: “(The term supposed was used in the same way I assumed u use the term apikorses – just trying to bring out your point in a very strong way)”
I just realized what you were saying with that, and I don’t believe a word you’re saying! The entire time you were trying to prove that it is accepted and expected practice to think that one’s rebbe is Moshiach, and now you say disingenuously that when you said a talmid “is supposed to” you meant something else.
Does anyone out there believe him?April 1, 2019 6:35 am at 6:35 am #1705822
Anyusername: “What I was trying to say just flew way over your head”
So what, pray tell, did you actually mean?April 1, 2019 6:42 am at 6:42 am #1705826
Anyusername to me: “The one who is warping things here in mefoshim is you. we both clearly saw sdei chemed/abarbanel and you, that can’t take a loss are twisting it in such a way that even I couldn’t do
Even if I tried”
I saw that the Sdei Chemed did NOT say that you’re supposed to claim that your rebbe is Moshiach, yet you wrote that that’s what he said. Quote please, and prove me wrong.
I saw that the Abarbanel did NOT say that the talmidim claimed their rebbes were Moshiach. What did you see? You claim he writes that Moshiach can come from the dead. Maybe he does. I didn’t deny it because I haven’t learnt the entire sefer. I don’t believe you’ve learnt it at all because you quoted an Artscroll as a source. Quote please to prove yourself right.
I said, many times, that Sanhedrin 98b and Rashi and the Maharsho there, which you cited, gives you no right to claim that anyone who has died can be Moshiach other than Doniel. You rant and rave and tell me I can’t learn gemoro. Fine. Show me where it says it. NOTE: from the Gemoro, Rashi and/or the Maharsho there, which is what you quoted. Don’t bring me other sources. Although I will be grateful if you can qote a source that any other dead person can be Moshiach.April 1, 2019 7:03 am at 7:03 am #1705859
“Anyusername: “(The term supposed was used in the same way I assumed u use the term apikorses – just trying to bring out your point in a very strong way)”
I just realized what you were saying with that, and I don’t believe a word you’re saying!
I stoll can’t figure out what he means. Can you explain?April 1, 2019 9:54 am at 9:54 am #1705941ChossidParticipant
I ziya because that’s what we have done in the past g generations, and the Rebbe did that to on the frierdiker Rebbe but those that write shlita are not committing kifira, because it’s exactly from these quotes that they say, Please don’t pick and choose.April 1, 2019 10:43 am at 10:43 am #1705975jdf007Participant
Now that we’re almost on page 10 of this non-existent argument, what was the point?April 1, 2019 10:43 am at 10:43 am #1705977ChossidParticipant
*writeApril 1, 2019 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1706164
1st one i wasnt so clear when i brought the abarbanel but i explained it in the next one
2 ME “if moshiach is from the dead it doeasnt necessarily mean only doniel – look in abarbanel thst i quoted”
RSO “And as to the Abarbanel which you miscite (I made that word up because I think it will get a lot of usage when it comes to arguing with lubavichers): after explaining that the Mishnah davka says that שמו של משיח was created on erev Shabbos, and not Moshiach himself, as it is referring to various characteristics of Moshiach, he then cites the Gemoro in Sanhedrin 98b where the talmidim cited the names of Moshiach as similar to that of their rebbes:
ואין ספק שכל אחד מהחכמים האלה היה דורש טוב לעצמו ומיחס שם המשיח כשמו כי דבי ר’ שילא קראוהו שילה בשם רבם…
Once again, HE DOES NOT WRITE that students should believe their rebbes are Moshiach, and he does not even say that those students did believe as much. (And again, if those talmidim would have believed as much it would NOT have been based on lubavich-like manufactured fictitious characteristics.)”
3. ME “But you only had a problem with the part that it can be from the dead which is why I quoted the abarbanel only for that reason”
RSO “I saw that the Abarbanel did NOT say that the talmidim claimed their rebbes were Moshiach.
remind me again what were arguing on?April 1, 2019 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1706155
1 a. When you have an argument with someone your supposed to argue on the same thing –
I think I said 3 times about the abarbanel and you keep arguing on a diff point that I never brought up.
b. Just to make it simple since anything i say you will disagree with so I’ll just quote from the artscroll which I assume everyone here holds of
“Begining of Footnote 42: If the Messiah is currently alive, he is certainly Rebbi. If the Messiah is someone who has a ready died, he is Daniel. (Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected (Yeshuos Meshicho lyun 2 ch. 1).)”
the abarbanel says nothing about being doniel rather about being from the dead
The point is that there are opinions that say moshiach can come from the dead.
2 let me make this a little bit simpler (the supposed term)
וכן הוא בכל דור ודור צ”ל אחד מוכשר שמא יזכו (ועפי”ז כתבו ג”כ תלמידי הארי”זל שבימיו הי׳האריז”ל
How I think it’s translated
In every generation there is someone capable of being moshiach in case the yidden are meritus/זוכה (or זכו however you want to translate this)
Based on this this, the talmidim of the arizal wrote that in the days of the arizal it was the arizal.
What I take from this is that they assumed that moshiach is the greatest person in that generation and they said Who is greater then the a arizal – if they felt there was someone greater then the arizal they would have said that it was that person
= I think the rebbe is the greatest person in our generation so if I’m looking for a candidate for moshiach I think that it should be him – the greatest person in our generation.
You on the other hand are not a lubavicher so you think that someone else was greater then the rebbe I’m ok with that -everyone has there own opinion. So I would assume that you say that that person is moshiach.April 1, 2019 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1706274
Any- just curious who wrote that for youApril 1, 2019 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1706276
What?April 1, 2019 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1706279
Oy! Der Rebbe vet helfn (leitznusa deavoda zara)April 1, 2019 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1706282
I would almost buy these justifications for deification IF it was done when the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe was alive, and all chassidim did it. However, all of this cropped up after the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe died, and these are nothing but post-facto distortions and justifications for deification that go against the mesorah of klal yisroel and the 13 ikkarim. And it’s why the Rambam gave them to us- so no mater how much someone tries to be metaher this sheretz, we know it’s a sheretz. We know Yoshke wasn’t moshiach despite his claim of G-d in a body, we know others who try that claim aren’t.April 1, 2019 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1706335☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I think the rebbe is the greatest person in our generation
Reality check: he’s not alive.
Agav, you’re making no sense. You’re claiming he’s in this generation, i.e. alive, and at the same time, that he’s not alive, but can be moshiach even though he’s not alive (based on an interpretation of a gemara which was never held of while he was alive and is against the Rambam).April 1, 2019 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1706339
You guys liked what I said so much but had to argue so you found a few words to argue on.
Whichever way you slice it, you have an answer. whether be is alive or not.
This is where this line comes in: for those that want answers there are answers, for those that dont want they will never find no matter what you say.
I know this type of line was said a bunch of times on this thread but now everyone can see it clearlyApril 1, 2019 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1706345
“I would almost buy these justifications for deification”
We’re talking about moshiach now
Like RSO you argue on things that are not being discussed
Atzmus was brought in for a bit but has since moved to another threadApril 1, 2019 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1706348
Nobody liked what you said but needed to argue, they were explaining why it was wrong. But instead of admitting that, you pretend they are picking on a few words. No, they explained pretty clearly what was wrong with it. But you are not only willing to acknowledge that they had a point, you are even denying that they responded! Thats a bit bizaarre.
It also has a name. Denial. Yes, you certainly dont want answers, you wont even admit there are questions, but i have witnessed here the most bizarre denial from you and CS before you.April 1, 2019 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1706363
Pls explain what was wrong with what I said pls
the claims that the rebbe is not moshiach started from the beginning. I was trying to answer the point (as you saw very clearly) why we said he is mosbiach back then (no this is not something I made up today)
The next part was explaining how it is possible for moshiach to come from the dead (this was not spoken about 25 yrs ago because we didnt have to go down that path, meaning no one said it definitely cant be from the dead)
Meaning all along there where two arguments 1 how can you say the rebbe was moshiach 2 how can you say the rebbe is moshiach – both of which I feel I answeredApril 2, 2019 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1706435
Anyusername: ““Begining of Footnote 42: If the Messiah is currently alive, he is certainly Rebbi. If the Messiah is someone who has a ready died, he is Daniel. (Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected (Yeshuos Meshicho lyun 2 ch. 1).)”
the abarbanel says nothing about being doniel rather about being from the dead”
Once again you have either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood what YOU have quoted. The gemoro says (quoting your post above) “If the Messiah is someone who has a ready died, he is Daniel”. Note, only Doniel, no one else who has died. Then quoting Artscroll (so I was right in concluding that you haven’t seen the Abarbanel inside!) you have “Abarbanel explains that it is possible for the Messiah to be among the resurrected”. Abarbanel may simply be ANSWERING how the Gemoro can say that Doniel will be Moshiach as Doniel has already died, so he EXPLAINS that although Doniel has died he can still be Moshiach once resurrected.
From the above there is absolutely no indication that the Abarbanel allows the possibility of someone else who has died to be Moshiach.
Now I haven’t read the entire sefer or even the entire chapter, but I’ve clearly read the more of the original than you have, and I haven’t found where the Abarbanel even hints that someone other than Doniel who has died may be Moshiach. Maybe he says it – I don’t know. But you say with certainty that he says it and I would like to see it inside in the original. So please find where it is clear cut and quote the original.
“The point is that there are opinions that say moshiach can come from the dead.”
I’m still waiting for an actual quote of some of those opinions. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, I just want to see it in the original Loshon Kodesh.April 2, 2019 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1706436
Anyusername: “What I take from this is that they assumed that moshiach is the greatest person in that generation and they said Who is greater then the a arizal – if they felt there was someone greater then the arizal they would have said that it was that person”
That is a very big jump from the quote. The Sdei Chemed says that in every generation there is someone muchshar – fit – to be the Moshiach, and you somehow think that that gives the right to any person/group to choose whoever they think is the greatest of that generation. But he Sdei Chemed doesn’t even say that his talmidim held he was the greatest of the generation. Don’t forget we are talking of the generation of the Beis Yosef and other gedolei Yisroel of such great stature.
According to the Rambam, a person can theoretically be the greatest of his generation, but if he is not ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech (and btw in Peirush Hamishnayos the Rambam says that has to be ben achar ben from Shlomo Hamelech too) he is not muchshar/fit to be Moshiach.
I have already pointed out that there is absolutely no proof of any sort that your rebbe was ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech (via Shlomo) (that was another case where you “proved” he was by telling us he was descended from the Metzudas Dovid, despite there being no source that the MD was descended from Dovid Hamelech!) so you have no right to believe that he is muchshar/fit to be Moshiach.
If your rebbe was still alive (as the Sdei Chemed which you brought to the table says, a person who has died cannot be Moshiach) I would not have that great a problem with you saying that your rebbe is the greatest person of his generation, and as far as his tzidkus is concerned, he is fit to be Moshiach. I would totally disagree with every part of the statement, and I would think you are deluded, but I would not say that you are saying something against the Torah. But when you say you your rebbe is a candidate for Moshiach based on your perception of him without even knowing whether he fits the Rambam’s criteria, I do have a great problem, because it means that you will fit into the Torah whatever conclusion you want. And that isn’t very different to the Reform movement.
And, to top it off, he has died!April 2, 2019 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1706437
I can believe I missed this:
SHY asked “Where does a person develop such a deeply rooted animosity toward a Tzaddik, and an entire Tzibbur of Yereim U’shleimim??”
The topic of discussion is WHETHER the “entire Tzibbur” with their views can be considered “Yereim U’shleimim”, so your criticism doesn’t really apply.April 2, 2019 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1706438
Anyusername: “25 yrs ago because we didnt have to go down that path, meaning no one said it definitely cant be from the dead”
Were you born and old enough to remember what was being said by lubavichers before 3 Tammuz? I was and I remember the standard line was that each generation has to have someone fit to be Moshiach, and in our generation the only living person that fits that bill is the rebbe. So the accepted premise was that moshiach defintitely has to be alive.April 2, 2019 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1706439
Anyusername: “This is where this line comes in: for those that want answers there are answers, for those that dont want they will never find no matter what you say.”
We takkeh don’t want answers. We want you to give up your crazy heretical ideas and see the truth.
You could use your statement just as well if you were a xian trying to convince us to convert c”v.April 2, 2019 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1706452
Something I just recently thought of.
If, according to the lubavicher claim, a talmid/chossid is meant to believe that his rebbe is moshiach, what did the chassidim of the Chozeh of Lublin do? He was a Levi.
And what did the Radomsker chassidim do, as their rebbes were Kohanim?
There must be many other examples.April 2, 2019 8:45 am at 8:45 am #1706511YeshivishrockstarParticipant
Rso: Better Question: What did Talmidim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe do, considering he is NOT a ben acher ben from Dovid Hamelech.April 2, 2019 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1706641
Occam’s Razor says go by the simplest explanation.
For those who insist modern Lubavitch ISN’T Avoda zara:
If chas veshalom it WAS, what would it be doing differently from today?
We already established that people daven to the Rebbe, based on the atzmus sicha.
While many don’t, the Rebbe said it’s ok so it’s just a question of personal preference.
We already established that people say “Der Rebbe vet helfn” instead of “Der Eibishter vet helfn”. So whether or not they daven. they still speak of the Rebbe as all-powerful.
They post pictures of the Rebbe everywhere.
They say he’s alive.
They say he couldn’t make a mistake.
They say everything he touched has “Elokus”
We have a slew of justifications and twisted and distorted gemaras to defend every one of these distortions of the mesorah, but none of these were part of klal yisroel until the Rebbe died.
Rav Shach zt”l couldn’t be fooled, though I was. I thought his use of avoda zara was extreme. I depserately wanted him to be wrong.
Daas chachomim hepech midaas baalabattim. He was right, I was wrong. I wish it wasn’t so.April 2, 2019 11:52 am at 11:52 am #1706672
were not gonna get into if the Rebbe fit the catogory or not because thats a matter of opinion which you disagree with so no point in going there.
but let me ask you like this
how were they able to say to say the arizal was moshiach did he fit the rambams critiria?
did the teacher of the rama fit the critiria?
did all the other people that were thought to be moshiach fit the full critiria?
Quote “That is a very big jump from the quote. The Sdei Chemed says that in every generation there is someone muchshar – fit – to be the Moshiach, and you somehow think that that gives the right to any person/group to choose whoever they think is the greatest of that generation. But the Sdei Chemed doesn’t even say that his talmidim held he was the greatest of the generation. Don’t forget we are talking of the generation of the Beis Yosef and other gedolei Yisroel of such great stature.”
i think any normal person assumes moshiach is the greatest person and not some beggar on the street (although it is possible).
And you still never explained why they said their teacher is moshiach and please explain the line i quoted.
again, you’re not proving to me that what im saying is against pshat you’re just basing it on the fact that im learning it different than you, which is fine – we both have an opinion. but to say that it is against pshat is wrong to say.
we have different opinions on a lot of things. but to say everyone disagrees with me i think your wrong.April 2, 2019 11:52 am at 11:52 am #1706684
quote “You could use your statement just as well if you were a … trying to convince us”
you’re the one trying to convince me not the other way around 🙂
you asked a few questions which i feel i answered to the best of my ability if you still dont understand thats ok, im fine with that. ask someone else that might explain it better btw there are many more mekoros (which you call twisted. some may be, some may not). so if you are interested go look up ALL the sources regarding moshiach, if your not then i understand why you have questions. – you dont need to tell us if you interested or not.April 2, 2019 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1706738Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“You’re claiming he’s in this generation, i.e. alive, and at the same time, that he’s not alive, but can be moshiach even though he’s not alive”
It’s called hedging their bets. Just in case they’re wrong about him being alive, they can still be right about him being moshiach. Their belief system has so many fail-safes, which is what makes it so impossible to deprogram.
It’s just like the Rambam so clearly says, “l’hatchilah, moshiach should be alive. But, if he dies, b’dieved he can still be moshiach if you believe hard enough.” I’m paraphrasing of course 😉April 2, 2019 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1706830
Both alive and dead at the same time. Schrodinger’s RebbeApril 2, 2019 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1706838
His generation ended 25 years ago. Single girls from when he died are now bubbies. You are now having the second generation of Lubavitchers who only know the Rebbe as an oyhel, not as a real person.
At some point they need to accept that they got played and move on with the next Rebbe.April 2, 2019 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1707379
“Schrodinger’s rebbe”. interesting that the lubavitcher attended his lectures in university and later remarked that he especially enjoyed his lectures.April 3, 2019 9:13 am at 9:13 am #1707664
Anyusername: “how were they able to say to say the arizal was moshiach did he fit the rambams critiria?
did the teacher of the rama fit the critiria?
did all the other people that were thought to be moshiach fit the full critiria?”
I would assume that the answer to all three is yes. Had they not been thought to have fit the criteria their talmidim would not have thought they were moshiach (I haven’t heard that the Rema’s rebbe was assumed to be moshiach, but that could be just plain ignorance on my part.)
As I’ve written before, the groups that you have mentioned weren’t baseball fans who decided that their team was the best simply because that was the one they rooted for. Comparing your ridiculous proofs that your rebbe was/is moshiach to the unknown reasons behind the assumption of the Ari z”l’s talmidim is denigrating to them.
Anyhow, how could they have thought that their rebbe was moshiach when Beis Moshiach = 770 in gematria, and their rebbes in all likelihood didn’t live in a house numbered 770?April 3, 2019 9:13 am at 9:13 am #1707665
Anyusername: “i think any normal person assumes moshiach is the greatest person and not some beggar on the street”
And the above is your reply to my pointing out that in the times of the Ari z”l there was also the Beis Yosef and other gedolei Yisrael of incredible stature?!April 3, 2019 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1707668
Anyusername: “again, you’re not proving to me that what im saying is against pshat you’re just basing it on the fact that im learning it different than you, which is fine – we both have an opinion. but to say that it is against pshat is wrong to say”
NO! NO! NO! I am saying that if you say that the gemoro in Sanhedrin, and the Rashi there, allows you to say that any person OTHER THAN DONIEL who has died is moshiach, you don’t know how to translate. We’re not talking about a machlokes. We are talking about you not listening to what Rashi is saying, either intentionally or because you don’t know how to translate.
I’ll do it for you here (sorry to all those who can translate Rashi on their own for the length of this post), and if you still have trouble getting it maybe you can get someone to help you:
אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש
[Quote from the Gemoro:] If he is from the living, like Rabbeinu Hakadosh
אם משיח מאותן שחיים עכשיו
[Rashi’s explanation:] If moshiach is of those that are currently alive
ודאי היינו רבינו הקדוש
he is certainly Rabbeinu Hakadosh
דסובל תחלואים וחסיד גמור הוה כדאמרינן בבבא מציעא (פה א)
who suffers illnesses, and he was a complete chossid, as we say in Bovo Metzia 85a.
ואם היה מאותן שמתו כבר
And if he was from those who have already died
היה דניאל איש חמודות
it was Doniel Ish Chamudos
שנדון ביסורין בגוב אריות וחסיד גמור היה
who was judged with tribulations in the lions’ den, and he was a complete chossid.
והאי כגון לאו דווקא
[Rashi now clarifies how, according to this explanation, the Gemoro uses the term “כגון”, which means “like”, when the Gemoro is in fact referring to two specific people and not anyone “like” them:] This “כגון” is not being used in a precise manner.
Another explanation [of the Gemoro]
כגון רבינו הקדוש
“Like Rabbeinu Hakadosh”
כלומר אם יש דוגמתו בחיים היינו רבינו הקדוש
Meaning to say, if there is a similarity to moshiach among the living [i.e. if there is someone alive (when the statement was made) to whom moshiach can be compared] it is Rabbeinu Hakadosh.
ואם דוגמא הוא למתים היינו כגון דניאל איש חמודות
And if moshiach is to be compared to someone dead, then he is like Doniel Ish Chamudos.
Now you have two choices:
1. Show me where and how I have mistranslated, or failing that
2. Show me how saying anyone who has died other than Doniel can be moshiach fits in with that Rashi, as you said it does.April 3, 2019 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1707669
Anyusername: “you asked a few questions which i feel i answered to the best of my ability”
Yep. To the best of your ability!April 3, 2019 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1707671
BBO: “the lubavitcher attended his lectures in university and later remarked that he especially enjoyed his lectures”
Where did he attend his lectures? Did he write or talk about it publicly?April 3, 2019 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1707841
The Lubavitcher Rebbe spent ten years in Berlin and Sarbonne attending various universities. Didn’t end up wqith much to show for it, according to recent research by Menachem Friedman. He was in Berlin at the same time as Rav Hutner zt”l and Rav YB Solovotechik zt”l. In the book “Thinking aloud”. someone asked Rav YB Soloveitchik zt”l if it’s true the Rebbe learned tehillim all day. He replied, “First ask me if he wore a yarmulke”. The Rebbe didn’t while in university, as per the custom of the Orthodox Jews in college. This doesn’t make him a bad person, but not the background of a future messiah.
The Mechaber zt”l, who got a mention in this thread, stood behind the messianic candidacy of Shlomo Molcho. But he didn’t think his own rabbeim were moshiach. Lubavitchers think the Rebbe was moshiach because the Rebbe said so in his “basi legani” maamar, and then everything had to be distorted to fit it in.
Lubavitch needs a Shaul of Tarshish type to keep klal yisroel away, though they are doing a good job themselves with this yechi nonsense and saying Der Rebbe Vet helfn. Klal yisroel knows a Christianity clone when they see one.April 3, 2019 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1708303
QUOTE “I would assume that the answer to all three is yes”
I agree, i think the same way and i feel that the rebbe also does.
Remember WE cant argue on the arizal and beis yosef as we dont know them nor can we argue on anyone else but its a matter of opinion.
AS I SAID MANY TIME THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE CAN ARGUE ON THIS IS A MATTER OF OPINION
you say i cant prove it to YOU, im not looking to prove it to you. you had questions which i tried answering, if you dont understand it ask somone else.
now regarding the abbarbanel you can look in the makor i told you (where he brings an explanation regarding the story of the “aravi” (the story of moshiach’s birth) and at the end he says:
ואל יקשה עליך שיהי’ מלך המשיח מן המתים כי כבר נסתפקו על זה בפ’ החלק ואמר רב אסי אם מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש אם מן מתייא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות
i will explain a bit but you wont take anything i say anyway so go look it up yourself.
throughout the entire explanation he is trying to explain the story. and in middle he says that moshiach will pass away and then get up with techiyas hameisim (nothing to do with doniel yet) then he bring the proof for what he says and brings the gemoro in sanhedrin.
so no, he is not trying to explain this gemoro in sanhedrin, he is trying to explain something else and bring this gemoro in sanhedrin as proof that moshiach can come from the dead.April 3, 2019 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1708746
AUO, Chabad clearly and explicitly rejected the idea of moshiach being dead for years. Then the Rebbe died and suddenly this is Chabad belief?
The Rambam clearly rejects it as well. Chabad does Rambam Yomi and the Rebbe considered the Rambam so authoritative that the distinctive Chbad menorah was based on the Rambam illustration.
Yes, there are a few sources for it. But it wasn’t mainstream, and the Mechaber clearly stopped believing in Shlomo Molcho once the Christians killed him.April 3, 2019 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1708822
“did he write about it or announce it publicly” . i honestly dont know. i saw it on chabad.org written by tzvi freeman. i think you can contact him via chabad.org for a source. petty doubting doesnt help your cause and just raises serious doubts on yourself.April 3, 2019 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1708844
Anyusername, I saw that part in the Abarbanel and it’s also not relevant to your point.
The Yerushalmi has a story told by an Arab about a child being born on the day of the Churban and then disappearing. The story says that he is moshiach.
The Abarbanel is saying that don’t ask a kasha how can the GEMORO says he is moshiach if he died as in Sanhedrin 98b there is also an opinion that moshiach is DONIEL who has died. So both gemoros allow it in line with their respective views. The Yerushalmi can accept that it was that child, and the Bavli can accept that it was Doniel.
None of the above, however, gives you the right to add a third person to the list.
Btw at least now I understand the mistake you are making, but look it up dispassionately and you will see that what I am writing is the correct pshat.April 3, 2019 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1708880
“according to recent research by menachem friedman”. correct. according to recent research by menachem friedman. by menachem friedman. menachem friedman. and who is this” tzaddik” menachem friedman? hmmm…April 3, 2019 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1708886
He brings his proof that MOSHIACH can come from the dead from the fact that the gemora says doniel can be moshiach.
The abbarbanel holds that moshiach can come from the dead using this gemora, (meaning he doesn’t learn the gemora the way you were learning it till now, that it can only be doniel but rather he learns, that from the fact that doniel can be moshiach we can use the same logic for anyone else that passes away) and that why he has no problem with the yerushalmi.
You have to remember the abarbanel is trying to answer a question that someone might have regarding this story. So he says the question is not a question, because we already see such a thing in sanhedrin that moshiach can come from the dead.
In your words you can say the abarbanel is arguing with rashi.
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