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  • #1703579

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    The noitzrim believe their guy died but is moshiach. So does chabad.
    The noitzrim believe their guy is one with God, beyond what any other Jew is. So does chabad.
    The noitzrim believe you can daven to their guy instead of Hashem. So does Chabad.

    The noitzrim should sue for plagiarism.

    Please don’t tell me nobody davens to the Rebbe if the sicha from 1979 EXPLICITLY PERMITS IT AND SAYS THE 5TH IKKAR DOESN’T APPLY TO THE REBBE DUE TO ATZMUS. So either they hold it’s true or they hold the Rebbe said apikorsus there and forget about it, but then moshiach can’t be an apikoires.

    Let’s say you have the most charitable reading of the 1979 sicha and somehow wriggle out of the fact he said “atzmus means no violation of the 5th ikkar” which itself violates other ikkarim as well as the 5th. The Rebbe wasn’t an apikoires and he meant well . YET, it’s an established fact that there are chabadnikim who do daven to the Rebbe (based on that sicha), call him “our Creator”, some say “Rebbe YHVH”, etc. So How can moshiach be someone who caused people to turn away from Hashem and worship avoda zara?

    Listen to the Rambam’s ikkarim and the heintigge gedoilim- stay away from Chabad.

    Ein od milvado. Hashem helps, no other power helps.

    #1703701

    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    @ neville
    so speak to a lubavitcher thats a talmid chacham. Btw, the chabadsker knew how to learn.

    #1704426

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Again, ad the gedoilim are correct, you DON’T speak to Lubavitcher talmidei chachomim because they are michutz lamachaneh. This attitude of “ignore your gedolim and speak to ours” is kind of weird, especially since they are the ones veering off the 13 ikkarim not us. It’s up to them to recant the apikorsus and rejoin klal yisroel, not up to us to ignore our gedoilim and understand their apikorsus.

    Atzmus sicha said you are allowed to daven to the Rebbe because he’s Hashem in a human body. So mima nafshach- either you agree with him and you’re an apikoires, or you argue on him which means you hold your rebbe was an apikoires, and what’s to defend?

    #1704588

    Chossid
    Participant

    Rso (regarding sukka) I got the point you’re not interested.
    אין הדבר תלוי אלא ברצונו.
    Maybe one day…..

    #1704583

    Chossid
    Participant

    Ysiegel
    Have you seen the (handwritten) letter of the Rebbe (ZATZAL) stating that it is irrelevant what the name of Mashiach is? (And others similar?). And those times he refused to go out to the Lag Baomer parade because the “flaggers” of the day were there?
    Yes.
    I agree with you 100%.
    I never said it’s relevant, nor did I say he is moshiach, and it’s not noigeih who he is.
    I here do to some people that claim that chabad are koifrim….. and I can’t whole myself (which is a problem) from not responding to such allegations. But guess what א קאפ קען מען נישט איופשטעלן. Just complete nonsense

    #1704585

    RSo
    Participant

    Could someone please post me a source for the atzmus sicha?

    #1704586

    Chossid
    Participant

    Like Ysiegel that only one who represents Lubavitche is the Rebbe himself, you have questions go like a mature person, and check it up and learn the einyunim, all the sichos have marekomois. If you still have questions, go too well respected Lubavitchers like the Rebbe choizer Reb Yoel Kahn, and alike. The people that the Rebbe himself put in charge of the moisdois. Not every Joe schmo can have an opinion.

    #1704587

    Chossid
    Participant

    For all these comments it looks like you guys just get your info online propaganda, and believe it’s true.
    Be a normal person and look up the enyonim.

    #1704590

    Chossid
    Participant

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    “Please go ahead and respond to the others, they are discussing sources which is much more important. But please know that I *have*done my homework and I find the answers to be worse than what I had been expecting.”

    I’m sorry you still feel that way, but I’m sure you can get some help in understanding, same as all the litviseh and chassidish, that came Lubavitche got there answers.

    #1704591

    Chossid
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    “OK, if the sicha is as you present it, then you can put your money where your mouth is and put a stop to this whole entire discussion. Repeat after me:
    “Chabad is meikel with regards to sleeping in the Sukkah.””

    If your problem is that it bothers you that someone can be more machmir then you then you, I have no problem saying that I’m more meikil.

    I can definitely say that no sleeping in the sukkka, is not being more machmir then the ones that are, but I can’t say (according to my knowledge of the sicha) not were being more meikil, is just a minhag that we don’t, (and the minhag is not being mevatel mitzvos teishvu) but if you consider it bieng meikil, then I got no problem with it.
    My only problem is that how you can have a whole conversation with teinois on us, when you never learned the sicha.
    Sounds pretty ridiculous.

    #1704592

    Chossid
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar
    “I’m aware of a Chabad house where there’s a big (as in HUGE) picture of the Rebbe on the Mizrach Vant. Anyone who flies from Israel can confirm this – it’s in Ben Gurion airport. People make minyanim there all the time, contrary to halacha”
    It’s news to me. It’s totally wrong, and not allowed, to me they are not considered Lubavitche, because the Rebbe would never let that happen.
    Next time I’m there I will go check it out. Iyh.

    #1704581

    Chossid
    Participant

    I just got a chance to look at the CR.
    Will try to respond.

    LerntminTayrah
    Have you let everything out yet, or you still need more time?
    Let me know when you flush.

    #1704584

    RSo
    Participant

    (Just sent this through but not sure it went, so resending. My apologies if applicable.)

    Anyusername: “i brought the sdei chemed is to show how when a tzadik is alive hes student are supposed to believe that he is moshich (quote part of it – כתבו ג״כ תלמידי האר״י ז״ל שבימיו הי׳ האר״י ז״ל) – something which i tried saying before which you couldn’t agree with”

    Everybody on this thread please read the quote above of Anyusername before going futher, because I have had more than enough of this distortion, warping, and סילוף of divrei Torah and I would like to eradicate it once and for all.

    The section in question starts on volume 5 page 2984 and goes for almost page. NOWHERE, NOWHERE, NOWHERE (yes, I am shouting) does it say that “STUDENTS ARE SUPPOSED” to believe that their rebbes are Moshiach!

    And to assume that the talmidei Ari z”l said that he was the Moshiach of his time because he was their rebbe is outright chutzpah! Do you really believe that Reb Chaim Vital and his colleagues zecher tzaddikim livrocho were so petty that they “rooted” for their rebbe because they happened to be his talmidim. If they claimed he was the moshiach of his day it was because they knew that he had ALL the necessary qualifications. Not fictional descent from Dovid Hamelech, not inane statements like “He was the nossi”, not ridiculous gematriyos like Beis Moshiach = 770.

    You are turning the talmidei Ari z”l into a group of baseball fans R”L!

    And as to the Abarbanel which you miscite (I made that word up because I think it will get a lot of usage when it comes to arguing with lubavichers): after explaining that the Mishnah davka says that שמו של משיח was created on erev Shabbos, and not Moshiach himself, as it is referring to various characteristics of Moshiach, he then cites the Gemoro in Sanhedrin 98b where the talmidim cited the names of Moshiach as similar to that of their rebbes:
    ואין ספק שכל אחד מהחכמים האלה היה דורש טוב לעצמו ומיחס שם המשיח כשמו כי דבי ר’ שילא קראוהו שילה בשם רבם…

    Once again, HE DOES NOT WRITE that students should believe their rebbes are Moshiach, and he does not even say that those students did believe as much. (And again, if those talmidim would have believed as much it would NOT have been based on lubavich-like manufactured fictitious characteristics.)

    So I suggest that you either put up or shut up. Either show me sources that say what you claim they say, or slink off into the sunset.

    Enough of the apikorsishe warping of holy sources in order to justify your ludicrous beliefs.

    (Btw I am now ready for you to tell me once again that I don’t know how to open a safer (sic) or understand a piece of gemoro. That seems to be your only defence.)

    #1704677

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Any username- Rso has your number. You keep trying to bring “proofs” oiszehen bei di misnagdim, and Rso keeps actually researching your proofs and debunking them (e.g. David Lichtenstein, the Rashi and Maharsho in Sanhedrin, the Sdei Chemed….). Hu hadovor asher dibarti – der Rebbe lent, der Rebbe gent, vehamefursomos einom tzrichos raayo. Those who deny do so because of hagoy asher bekorbicho, vos heist zich on misnaged, and no amount of proof will sway them. They deny at their own peril. So stop already! You are making a chillul Lubavitch!

    #1704681

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @rso the one warping things here is you
    ( Btw why did each one have to find a makor in Torah finding that thier rebbes name fits with moshiach ??
    Why did they care if it was their rebbe?

    I’m a bit confused if your bring that proof against me from the abarbanel when I said that the proof is from the sdei chemed and the proof of moshiach coming from the dead is from the abarbanel

    #1704682

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    RSo – Miscite is 100% a real word. Google it.

    Chossid: Please do. If you can speak to the shliach there to ask him to remove it, I’d appreciate it. When I spoke to him, he just thoughtI was another chabad-hating snag.

    #1704689

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @rso you agreed with me on this part already in your last post
    But you only had a problem with the part that it can be from the dead which is why I quoted the abarbanel only for that reason

    #1704691

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Could someone please post me a source for the atzmus sicha?


    #1704695

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    A very good – but very biased and sarcastic – resource is על התורה ועל התמורה. Google it. A number of websites have scans.

    #1704708

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Wow! that’s the first smart thing TT has said so far! They refuse to hear you because of “Hagoy Bekirbecho” because of the Christianity within you! Exactly what many here have been saying all along!

    TT, I find comfort in knowing that if the Rebbe was around today he would surely put an end to your chillul.

    #1704701

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I’m sorry you still feel that way, but I’m sure you can get some help in understanding, same as all the litviseh and chassidish, that came Lubavitche got there answers.”

    Chosid- you can’t answer every question and complaint with an accusation of being uneducated. Even after I mentioned more than once that I got my information from posters like you and from real life you still go back to that. It’s disrespectful to accuse everyone of being unlearned just because they don’t see things your way.
    How ’bout if I try the same tactic…
    I’m sorry you feel that way. Maybe you can get some help in understanding same as all the lubavitchers who left for other circles that got their answers.

    #1704729

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Like Warren Buffet used to say, don’t invest in an industry you don’t understand because it’s probably a scam. These scam companies use a bunch of fancy words and say “youre not educated enough to understand”. The thing is, the 13 ikkarim are rather simple and ironclad. If you violate them, you’re out. It’s on the people violating them to say why they’re not apikorsim. Syag doesn’t need my backup but blowing off serious shailas with “you’re uneducated” is not an intellectually satisfying answer. Please directly answer the question. The sicha Daas Yochid posted above DIRECTLY says you can ignore the 5th ikkar because the rebbe is G-d in a human body. That’s a direct violation of the ikkarim that says Hashem has no human form, Hashem alone runs the world, you can only daven to Hashem. There is an ikkar about how great Moshe Rabbeinu was, but nowhere in history do we find Jews saying “Moishe Rabbeinu vet helfn”.
    I’ll acceppt that most Lubavitchers dont’ accept that sicha kepshuto because it’s apikorsus, so we don’t have to view Crown Heights as an ir hanidachas, but there are clearly many who do based on the widespread popularity of der rebbe vet helfn. So yeah, stay away from current Lubavitch.

    #1704772

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    True religion is for the uneducated as much as it is for the educated. Hashem didn’t create uneducated people for them to be secular.

    #1704788

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @lmt
    Not sure if this answer your question but here goes

    For now ill go accourding to your second way you assumed the sicha which means the concept is correct but some ppl misunderstood it and daven Directly to the rebbe

    There is a concept I’m sure you heard of – I forgot the words offhand but its something to do with hashem gave way to the goyim to say things against him by writing certain things in Torah

    There were the tzidukim baitosim and others that learnt Torah and totally learnt it wrong. Are you gonna say that hashem shouldt have given the Torah?? I hope u get what I’m trying to say

    The rebbe said a sicha – some ppl may have learnt it wrong but if its part of Torah it has to be said as is. no point of hiding it… Even if ppl learnt it wrong and took it totally out of context it’s still Torah

    (you might disagree with some parts but its backed up with mekoros (not as halacha as the rebbe says himself but rather as hergesh – but its backed up with makoros) and unless you know all the mekoros and all the merforshim on them you cant say its kfira)

    I know u’ll say “but our gedolim said its kfira” and it’s a mitzvah lfarsem or something similar to that. but that’s a lame excuse. as you say get better tactic. bring all mokoros where you see that its totally against pshat in this – not just “the ramchal or NH says” even if there is one safer that holds of it means that its not kfira even if majority dont agree with that sefer.

    Dont either answer abt hergesh that’s not either a question as I just wrote.

    #1704800

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Anyusername are you referring to mashgi lagoyim vaye’abdeim or ki yeshorim darchei Havayeh tzaddikim yelchu vom vechu’ yikoshlu bom? Either way, some nerve you have calling others uneducated when you just throw around musogim without knowing what you’re really talking about. The Rebbe ZT”L (edited) doesnt need or want an advocate like you. Shvaig shoin.

    #1704845

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    AUO, you’re quoting your rebbe and saying you need to understand him while saying we can’t rely on our gedolim as a lame excuse. Which is it?

    You’re losing cheshbon and we’re 8 pages deep into this sugya so it’s time for a sikum.
    2 questions on the floor:
    1. should a non-chabad join chabad?
    2. Should an existing chabadsker drop chabad?
    Tha answer to 1. is clearly no. We have established that
    a. The rebbe said full-fledged apikorsus/kefira by saying you are allow to daven to the rebbe because the rebbe is one body with Hashem. This violates numerous ikrei emunah. (You fully admit that the sicha on its face value is kefira/minnus, just that you claim we need to be melamed zechus and be metareitz dibburo, which lacks a source that it’s our job to do so when the kefira is black-and-white)

    b. Many Lubavitchers take it at face value, as even you admit. They daven to the Rebbe and say things like the rebbe will help and the rebbe runs the world, clearly indicating the rebbe is the equivalent of Hashem. They say everything the Rebbe touched has Elokus, and the Rebbe can’t make a mistake even though even Moshe Rabbeinu made a mistake as explicitly stated in this week’s parsha. You just say that this isn’t chabad philosophy, and people make mistakes. But that means you’re saying moshiach caused people to worship avoda zara, even as you are metareitz dibburo to say he didn’t say what he said. Since avoda zara isn’t battul, then even one apikoires in Lubavitch means stay away, kol shekein when it looks like official Chabad philosophy.

    c. Many gedolim said that Chabad is avoda zara/apikorsus. You admit that too, but say the fact that they attack the Rebbe for saying kefira means they lose their status as gedolim. But everyone else holds of them. And they are confirming what is obvious to everyone who sees that sicha, that the rebbe turned his entire movement into direct avoda zara by claiming that a rebbe is on par with Hashem. So no need to say they made a mistake or got their facts wrong when we see they were correct.

    You agree with me that there are full-fledged ovdei avoda zara in Chabad based on understanding the sicha at face value, which rather explicitly says it’s ok to daven to the rebbe. You are just claiming he didn’t mean what he said, and it’s somehow coincidence that even normal chabadskers say things like “der rebbe vet helfn ” and The rebbe runs the world as if to imply that it’s the rebbe, not Hashem. In the gemara there is a concept of metareitz lediburo. If someone says apikorsus, then moridin velo maalin. Not my job to be metareitz diburo. It’s HIS job to correct the record. He had many years after publishing that to publish a retraction or correct the record. Shtika kehoda’ah. He said kefira and meant it.
    So the answer to question # 2. is yes, Chabadskers should abandon chabad. They don’t have to become misnagdim. They can join Lionzer or other Chabad non-Lubavitch breakaways that retain Chabad but dump the kefira/apikorsus. Please do so. Klal yisroel needs you. Be like Yisro- abandon the avoda zara to go tachas kanfei hashechina. We eagerly await you.

    #1704851

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”

    You didn’t object when R’ Menashe Klein called them crazies.

    #1704852

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Since avoda zara isn’t battul, then even one apikoires in Lubavitch means stay away

    You could use that faulty logic to say to stay away from klal Yisroel.

    #1704856

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Daasyochid, klal yisroel has a chezkas kashrus and kol deparush meruba parush.
    Chabad is kavua. Plus the rebbe’s “rebbe = Hashem” atzmus sicha is a reyusa on every member of Chabad.

    Daasyochid, I will say that their usual excuse is “those aren’t the regular Lubavitchers, just the crazies”. They don’t use the term apikorsim because they refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room.
    But for us, we are trying to be mekareiv them, let’s use the appropriate term.
    I can’t speak for Rav Menashe Klein zt”l. But I accept his pask as someone who knows the bounds of appropriate and inappropriate chassidus.

    #1704857

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    I think my sikum was overly complex so let’s boil it down.
    1. Should you join chabad? No, because the movement has many apikorsim based on the rebbe’s own sicha equating rebbes with Hashem, as posted above. Gedolim agree so don’t let yourself get taken in by sophistry from Chabdskers.
    2. Should a chabad person leave chabad? Yes, as above. Gedolim agree so don’t let yourself get taken in by sophistry from your mashpiim.

    #1704868

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @lmt
    I always wondered how ppl misunderstood the rebbes words. I just got my answer from the way you just argued on what I said/twisted what i said

    Did you know that becuase of Moshe the yidden made an eigel, miraglim came abt (שלך לך לדעתך) moshe was the one who asked that the eiruv rav be saved and look what came out of them…
    Yidden had so much suffering because of the way ppl learnt torah….. Bgashmius ubruchnius – Much worse then what you claim abt chabad
    Are you gonna say Moshe/moshiach was a kofer C”v or that hashem should have never given us the torah c”v??

    I disagree with the way you understood about what I said about gedolim – yes accourding to their opinion it’s a wrong way of learning but thier are those that disagree and say its correct….

    No one ever said that davening TO the rebbe is ok.

    And no, at face value the rebbe Cleary bring sources to what He says.

    And No, I’m not needed to farentfer the rebbes sichas.
    No one is trying to convince you to agree with chabad you were the one that asked the question.

    need i say more?

    #1704896

    Chossid
    Participant

    Mods nice for checking to zatzal.
    Can you also change next time someone says the Rebbe is “dead” to the Rebbe “past away”?.
    Out of respect please.

    #1704918

    Chossid
    Participant

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    I don’t know exactly what you want I should answer, and where is the question.
    All I see is bunch of idiotic statements.
    Anytime I say to check something up, no one wants to bother checking, (at least thets what I see from vast majority of you) and just relie on what people say and what it says online.
    I don’t think it’s right to state a facts , before checking up exactly what the concepts mean.

    LerntminTayrah
    What would you tell someone challenges you and claims that “it says in Torah בראשית ברא אלוקים that bereishis created Hashem (Cs”v) and says you guys are koifrim because it says in the Torah that breishis created, it’s black and white kifira? And if Torah didn’t really mean that, then Torah shouldn’t have said it in the first place”?
    Obviously you would tell them to check up Rashi, and meforshim.
    Same is with Chabad yes in the first place it’s sounds radical, but of you only do some REAL research of the concepts and ask the well respect rabbonim in Lubavitche you would have the sugyia clear. Like all the Gedolim and Rebbeim that still visited the Rebbe even after his statement. (I doubt you are going to call all of them ovidei avoda zorah.) They came because they knew what the Rebbe meant and it wasn’t kifira at all.
    If you have brains and use them if not go seek help.

    #1704919

    Chossid
    Participant

    I don’t know if my moshel is exact, but you get the point

    #1704928

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    In defense of the Rebbe zatzal, it’s quite clear that he never intended kefira ch”v , and great gedolim still visited him after the sicha. Most chabadnks don’t understand the sicha in a radical way, and the rebbe clearly says in the sicha, if you understand it in a way thats apikursus, then its better you dont learn it!

    So Lamir Lernin Torah, you’re being intellectually dishonest by calling it kefira, by saying the rebbe meant kefira ch”v! BTW, there’s similar language in Kedushas Levi and Likutei Mohoran, where they’re held of by everybody!

    LLT, most people had much bigger problems with sukka (discussed in a previous thread) and meshichists (also discussed). Atzmus is almost never understood in a kefiradike way by true lubaviche chassidim, as the rebbe explicitly instructed.

    BTW, its bothering me that YWN CR is becoming the bash chabad site. 90% of all chabadnikim are good shomrei torah umitzvois.

    In regards to if someone should join chabad, if it helps him get closer to Hashem – bemakom shelibo chafetz – he should definitely join.

    #1704975

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville, and rarely will you find the MO admit that they’re lax in tznius, kashrus, or dozens of other things. And will even get angry if you point that out to them. So it is human nature not to want to acknowledge weaknesses; this isn’t anything specific to Lubavitchers.”

    I actually said exactly that earlier on this thread. That is assuming it got past moderation. This thread moved so fast I didn’t actually see.

    Point is, don’t worry, I’m no hypocrite. I give the same treatment to the MO.

    #1704987

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Lernt:
    What you’re saying is not how any poskens. Just because we’ve formed groups on earth doesn’t mean Hashem compartmentalized the Jewish people. Even though rov Lubavitchers believe in kefira, they still have the same chazakah as the rest of us. Unless a Lubavitcher specifically publicizes his meshichism, his wine and aidus is kosher. Haven’t you noticed the references on this thread to gedolim eating at Chabad events? You think they aren’t aware of what most Lubavitchers believe?

    #1705040

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar, The Rebbe isn’t the Torah. He said what he said, had 12 years to correct the record, never did. His sicha EXPLICITLY says it’s ok to daven to a rebbe directly because of atzmus. This isn’t a snag diyuk. It’s befeirush in the atzmus sicha. Like that was his whole point. Please show me where the likutei moharan or kedushas levi violated the 13 ikkarim and said it’s ok to daven to a person.

    People have a bigger problem with sukkah and meshichism because they are not familiar with the atzmus sicha. Rav Shach zt”l was fully aware of the apikorsus and called them out on it. Meshichism follows from this- if the Rebbe can’t make a mistake because he’s part of Hashem then he couldn’t have been wrong about him being moshiach.

    #1705053

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    der-rebbe-der-eibishter

    From a fb conversation a friend of mine who learns at 770 had

    #1705080

    Chossid
    Participant

    Well I don’t know who your friend is, but he definitely got to see a doctor. This is not what the Rebbe holds or the people that the Rebbe put in charge of his moisdois.

    I got some friends that are tzoikim, should I now smear the whole Judaism that they don’t believe in Torah sheh Bal peah?

    I got a friend, his name is Bernie Madoff, should I go smear all jews as scammers?

    I got a litvak in my shul that did a terrible sin (which I won’t mention) should I now say all litvaks commit it too?

    #1705084

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Chossid, in this case, the person above was basing himself on the atzmus sicha which the Rebbe stated. The Rebbe explicitly blurred he line between human and Hashem. It’s like whe Christians call Yoshke both human and god, based on their theology. The Rebbe explicitly adopted this. He owns this.

    #1705098

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “His sicha EXPLICITLY says it’s ok to daven to a rebbe directly because of atzmus. ”

    Do you think that your blatant lie will become true if you repeat it sufficiently? The Rebbe doesn’t use the word “daven”, and isn’t discussing davening to a Rebbe – something Chassidim have never done – the Rebbe is talking about “betten” in English, “asking, demanding, beseeching”, something Chassidim have done throughout the generations, and across the Chassidish spectrum, it’s not exclusive to Lubavitch. In Yiddish we say about someone who has passed on, “Er zol Zayn ah gutte better” do you know the translation of those words? We ask our Rebbeim to beseech the Eibeshter on our behalf. Which raises the question, how is that ok? Why do we need a Memutzah? Is that not a problem?

    (The answer you can now read inside the Sicha.)

    #1705104

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @lmt
    I feel I mentioned your question very clearly but I’ll say it again:
    If something is Torah it must be said straight out, as is even if it sounds weird, toras emes is emes – truth is not worried about questions –

    Because Moshe gave a very vague description about when he is coming back the yidden got confused and made an eigel….

    I know it sounds very weird and very extreme but its the same thing.

    #1705115

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the Rebbe is talking about “betten” in English, “asking, demanding, beseeching”, something Chassidim have done throughout the generations, and across the Chassidish spectrum, it’s not exclusive to Lubavitch. In Yiddish we say about someone who has passed on, “Er zol Zayn ah gutte better”

    Nice try, but the “Er zol Zayn ah gutte better” means the neshomo is beseaching Hashem, not that we’re beseaching a neshomo, ch”v.

    If all the Rebbe was addressing is how you can ask a Rebbe to daven to Hashem, well, nobody really questions that (you can ask anyone to daven to Hashem for you), and the whole atzmus umahus areingeshtelt in a guf bit is unnecessary.

    #1705125

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “He owns this.”
    Please tell me which Rosh Yeshiva or Godol “owns you”. Where is the production line that produces Sonei Yisrael as yourself? Or perhaps you are a “special edition”…

    Where does a person develop such a deeply rooted animosity toward a Tzaddik, and an entire Tzibbur of Yereim U’shleimim??

    Don’t blame “the gedolim” for your hate, most of the Gedolim have a wonderful relationship with Chabad, and are true examples of Ohavei Yisrael. Not so with you and your ilk however, you are actively seeking reasons to hate Yidden, purely out of Sinas Chinam.

    .בברכת יתמו חטאים מן הארץ, חטאים ולא חוטאים.

    #1705134

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You have no legitimate answers = we’re all haters. Got it.

    Someone is critical of Chabad = he’s not a godol, ergo, no gedolim are against Chabad. Got it.

    #1705131

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Nice try, but the “Er zol Zayn ah gutte better” means the neshomo is beseaching Hashem, not that we’re beseaching a neshomo, ch”v.

    If all the Rebbe was addressing is how you can ask a Rebbe to daven to Hashem, well, nobody really questions that (you can ask anyone to daven to Hashem for you), and the whole atzmus umahus areingeshtelt in a guf bit is unnecessary.”

    1. I was helping translate the word for the benefit of those unfamiliar with Yiddish, and giving it context.

    2. A common theme on some of these threads is, “Why can’t I directly ask Hashem for my needs, and of what use is a Rebbe, who needs a go between, I have a straight line with Hashem”

    The different variations of those Taanos have been around since the dawn of Chassidus, some more elequently expressed, many less so. This is what the Rebbe is answering.

    #1705149

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1. I was helping translate the word for the benefit of those unfamiliar with Yiddish, and giving it context.

    But you pulled a nice switcheroo there when you changed the subject of the “betten”. You claimed it doesn’t mean the same as davening, but when you ask, beseach, demand of a human being something which is in Hashem’s realm, it’s problematic.

    This is what the Rebbe is answering.

    The answer doesn’t fit the question you claim he’s asking.

    There’s a very simple answer to the question why you ask someone to daven on your behalf – perhaps that person has zechuyos you don’t, so his tefilos will be answered. It doesn’t replace your own tefilos, it’s in addition to your own tefilos. Atzmus umahus areingeshtelt in a guf doesn’t enter the equation unless the question was about beseaching, asking, demanding, i.e. davening to the person.

    #1705167

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Btw do you know the history of the rambam – yes he was called a kofer, ppl burned his seforim, and made up alot of things about him………..
    Look what happened a couple of years later he is considered a majer halachic authority….
    In those days if you called someone that went against the rambam, a hater he would say the same thing that @dy says.
    Yes, all the gedolim were against the rambam….

    It’s ok for a gadol to say; that something is totally wrong, and then everyone later realizes that its not wrong…

    There are many concepts in chabad that the gedolim used to say is totally wrong and the gedolim condemned it but slowy ppl are realizing that those concepts are not wrong.

    (I’m not saying in any way “my rebbe is better the your rebbe” or that the gedolim are wrong in what they said.)

    (Dont start quoting me that thats what they say about everything)

    #1705207

    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername: “Btw why did each one have to find a makor in Torah finding that thier rebbes name fits with moshiach ??
    Why did they care if it was their rebbe?”

    Where does anyone say that they cared that it was their rebbe?!

    This is like the tenth instance when you want a source to say something so you decide that it does, and then you prove something from it! NOWHERE does it say that they were referring to their rebbe himself. The Abarbanel clearly says that they were referring to attributes.

    And I am sick of researching YOUR resources for you and then being told that you didn’t mean that. Instead of quoting me an Artscroll source, YOU post the exact wording of the Abarbanel and tell us what you are proving from it.

    Just for the record, you will not find any post of mine saying that Moshiach can’t be from someone who has died. You WILL find me saying that if you are just going to base yourself on Sanhedrin 98b then you it is warped and (at least close to) apikorsus to say that since the Gemoro says it’s Doniel I can say its the lubavicher rebbe.

    You will also find me saying that there is absolutely no chance – and you may also possibly find me saying that there never was any chance – that the lubavicher rebbe is/was Moshiach. I reiterate that in light of the sicha that was posted where your rebbe says that “based on a hergesh” you can daven to a human.

    But I have to give it to you. You are a true lubavicher (oxymoron?) because when a claim you made is shot down in flames you just ignore it and say you claimed something else.

    You specifically claimed that the Sdei Chemed says that a talmid is SUPPOSED to think his rebbe is Moshiach. I looked it up and said that he DOES NOT say that. You have conveniently ignored that.

    So there’s one thing I have to agree with TomimTihyeh: I have your number!

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