June 16, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #597445
Is there an issue if the defendant is a Jew or non-Jew…Does it matter?June 16, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #777730
i asked a Posek various questions before i went on jury duty.
he said i could be a juror on a case where the defendant is a Jew.
but i could not participate in litigation between two Jews.June 16, 2011 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #777731
Mod: Did you ask the posek if you could find against that defendant if you served on that panel?
And was their a difference if was a shomer Torah u’mitzvos or not?June 16, 2011 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #777732
A shomer Torah u’mitzvos gets 27 years.June 16, 2011 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #777733
no i didnt ask him that. the fact that he said i should sit on the jury implied that i should conduct myself in that capacity according to the laws of the state.
he didnt say anything about a need to investigate the Jews degree of frumkeit.June 16, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #777734
But the assumption was frum rather than obviously frei?June 16, 2011 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #777735
im not sure what you mean
he didnt say anything about a need to investigate the Jews degree of frumkeit. i believe he meant there is no distinction. youd have to ask him for further elucidation.June 16, 2011 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #777736
What’s his #?June 16, 2011 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #777737
i prefer you ask your PosekJune 16, 2011 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #777738
gavra paskened it’s okay to shop around for rabbis by the shaila. 🙂June 16, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #777739
A close family mamber of mine sat on a jury in a drug case (no jews involved) and in became apperent that the goverment was trying to frame the defandent who bought drugs as the ring leader of a drug gang while the real ring leader got a deal to testify agains the defandent, but when he took the witness stand it was so obviously false, so the jury found him not guilty on the drug dealing charges while finding him guilty for drug possesion.June 16, 2011 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #777740
Mod-80, did your rav give you guidance on how precisely you could seek to be excused from a case involving two Jews?
Better yet, suppose the parties are not in court during jury selection, as sometimes happens, and after you get selected, you then learn that the litigation is between two Jews, what are you supposed to do?June 16, 2011 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #777741
i didnt ask him every possible situation that could occur. but i did ask him this, and i had my phone. he said i should tell them that i am not allowed to serve on a jury case between two Jews because of my religion. if they questioned me i should have them call him. if it escalated i would have to have played it by ear (meaning to keep in touch with him and refuse to serve on the jury unless at some point he permitted it)June 16, 2011 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #777742
Better yet, suppose the parties are not in court during jury selection, as sometimes happens, and after you get selected, you then learn that the litigation is between two Jews, what are you supposed to do?
we did not discuss this.
what i would do is tell the judge i cannot serve,(and i would refuse to serve unless the Rav instructed me to).June 16, 2011 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #777744
I think we’ve discussed this before. Where precisely are there any guidelines for what evidence is acceptable in Noahide courts?June 16, 2011 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #777745
charlie: Did you ask this shaila to the Rabbi (Avi Weiss) where you pray?June 17, 2011 1:45 am at 1:45 am #777748
It’s 1492. A new law is passed in Spain. All must bow to the cross. Dina D’malchusa Dina. It’s the law of the land. Homeowner knowing not to C”V make a public Chillul Hashem in front of the head inquisitor and all the goyim, dutifully fulfills his duty as stipulated by the law he was sworn to uphold in his bar exam. He even saved a life by so doing. What a Kiddush Shem Shmayim!June 17, 2011 1:49 am at 1:49 am #777749
If someone doesn’t wish to serve on a jury there are plentiful ways to accomplish that. Announce you saw the defendant is guilty the moment you first laid eyes on him and you are so happy to serve on the jury so you can convict him. See how long the judge allows you to continue volunteering for the jury.June 17, 2011 1:54 am at 1:54 am #777750
Packman…a Jew should lie to a judge? Doesn’t sound very frum to meJune 17, 2011 2:03 am at 2:03 am #777751
mikehall: good point.
Joseph: Really, do you care about sheker at all? I know you don’t care about lying to us, despite it being assur. But you publicly and openly support sheker now?June 17, 2011 2:10 am at 2:10 am #777752
It’s true. Many people CAN determine guilt by looking at the defendant. They may be wrong, but at least they think so. I think they should honestly let the judge know their perceived abilities.June 17, 2011 2:29 am at 2:29 am #777753
Pacman… Nice trying to change what you said, but you advocated not telling the truth…for some reason you feel it is fine to be a frum Jew and lie to a judge…
Read what you said…”announce you saw” basically tell the judge you saw the defendant commit the aledged crimeJune 17, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #777761
The Mods are very bias here…why else would they allow Pacman to say…
“charlie: Did you ask this shaila to the Rabbi (Avi Weiss) where you pray?”
we all know where Pacman was going with this…it was meant as a passive aggressive personal attack.
If this is the way Yeshiva World News wants to operate, then I don’t want to be here anymore!
Good shabbos and bye to those I enjoyed talking, debating and communicating with!June 17, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #777762
“charlie: Did you ask this shaila to the Rabbi (Avi Weiss) where you pray?
we all know where Pacman was going with this…it was meant as a passive aggressive personal attack.”
While we all realize this is a put down -I don’t know what Charlie posted -it was deleted -maybe the put down was warranted.
“Packman…a Jew should lie to a judge? Doesn’t sound very frum to me”
There are times when one is allowed to lie. Lying to prevent being Oiver an Issur would be one of them. In the Court system -this would depend on the situation. I don’t think Joe holds that you can lie to a Judge whenever you feel like it.
On a funny side note -there is now an ad for some bank card I saw on the net. The viking kid (with a beard of course) standing next to a chopped down cherry blossom tree with his ax, with Wash., DC in the background, says to his father -“I cannot tell a lie” and points to his goat and says -“He did it”. Very funny!June 17, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #777763
Joseph, did you ever ask the Shailah to your “Rabbi”, Yisroel Dovid Weiss?June 17, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #777764
gavra paskened it’s okay to shop around for rabbis by the shaila. 🙂
Did not. and I am a Gavra, not a Posek.June 17, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #777765
Packman – Yes, there are countless ways to get out of jury duty, but we are not talking about that. This is a serious discussion of a specific circumstance, whether a Yid is halachically permitted to sit in judgment when two Yidden are fighting one another in secular court.
The point is not to get out of jury duty b/c one wants to get out of jury duty; this was a halachic question about doing the right thing.
Of course, a frum Yid is not supposed to report another Yid to a goyishe authority (with exceptions).June 17, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #777766
Dina Demalchusa Dina applies only in a country where the laws are neither arbitrary nor cruel, like they were in post-reconquista Spain, and that it does not apply to yaharog veal yaavor mitzvos, like bowing to a cross.
You also posted an encouragement to lie to a judge in a country where the government is neither cruel nor arbitrary. If you did so b’meizid, it is a clear aveirah, a violation of dina demalchusa dina, among other issurim.June 17, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #777767
Joseph, did you ever ask your Rov, (Rabbi Brog) if your allowed to continue the type of behavior you constantly have done, and continue doing here 9all being done “Lishem Shomayim”…..)
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