Jury Duty

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  • #597445

    Is there an issue if the defendant is a Jew or non-Jew…Does it matter?

    #777730

    i asked a Posek various questions before i went on jury duty.

    he said i could be a juror on a case where the defendant is a Jew.

    but i could not participate in litigation between two Jews.

    #777731

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Mod: Did you ask the posek if you could find against that defendant if you served on that panel?

    And was their a difference if was a shomer Torah u’mitzvos or not?

    #777732

    cherrybim
    Participant

    A shomer Torah u’mitzvos gets 27 years.

    #777733

    no i didnt ask him that. the fact that he said i should sit on the jury implied that i should conduct myself in that capacity according to the laws of the state.

    he didnt say anything about a need to investigate the Jews degree of frumkeit.

    #777734

    Pac-Man
    Member

    But the assumption was frum rather than obviously frei?

    #777735

    im not sure what you mean

    he didnt say anything about a need to investigate the Jews degree of frumkeit. i believe he meant there is no distinction. youd have to ask him for further elucidation.

    #777736

    Pac-Man
    Member

    What’s his #?

    #777737

    i prefer you ask your Posek

    #777738

    Pac-Man
    Member

    gavra paskened it’s okay to shop around for rabbis by the shaila. 🙂

    #777739

    deiyezooger
    Member

    A close family mamber of mine sat on a jury in a drug case (no jews involved) and in became apperent that the goverment was trying to frame the defandent who bought drugs as the ring leader of a drug gang while the real ring leader got a deal to testify agains the defandent, but when he took the witness stand it was so obviously false, so the jury found him not guilty on the drug dealing charges while finding him guilty for drug possesion.

    #777740

    Homeowner
    Member

    Mod-80, did your rav give you guidance on how precisely you could seek to be excused from a case involving two Jews?

    Better yet, suppose the parties are not in court during jury selection, as sometimes happens, and after you get selected, you then learn that the litigation is between two Jews, what are you supposed to do?

    #777741

    i didnt ask him every possible situation that could occur. but i did ask him this, and i had my phone. he said i should tell them that i am not allowed to serve on a jury case between two Jews because of my religion. if they questioned me i should have them call him. if it escalated i would have to have played it by ear (meaning to keep in touch with him and refuse to serve on the jury unless at some point he permitted it)

    #777742

    Better yet, suppose the parties are not in court during jury selection, as sometimes happens, and after you get selected, you then learn that the litigation is between two Jews, what are you supposed to do?

    we did not discuss this.

    what i would do is tell the judge i cannot serve,(and i would refuse to serve unless the Rav instructed me to).

    #777744

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Charlie:

    I think we’ve discussed this before. Where precisely are there any guidelines for what evidence is acceptable in Noahide courts?

    #777745

    Pac-Man
    Member

    charlie: Did you ask this shaila to the Rabbi (Avi Weiss) where you pray?

    #777748

    Pac-Man
    Member

    It’s 1492. A new law is passed in Spain. All must bow to the cross. Dina D’malchusa Dina. It’s the law of the land. Homeowner knowing not to C”V make a public Chillul Hashem in front of the head inquisitor and all the goyim, dutifully fulfills his duty as stipulated by the law he was sworn to uphold in his bar exam. He even saved a life by so doing. What a Kiddush Shem Shmayim!

    #777749

    Pac-Man
    Member

    If someone doesn’t wish to serve on a jury there are plentiful ways to accomplish that. Announce you saw the defendant is guilty the moment you first laid eyes on him and you are so happy to serve on the jury so you can convict him. See how long the judge allows you to continue volunteering for the jury.

    #777750

    Packman…a Jew should lie to a judge? Doesn’t sound very frum to me

    #777751

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    mikehall: good point.

    Joseph: Really, do you care about sheker at all? I know you don’t care about lying to us, despite it being assur. But you publicly and openly support sheker now?

    #777752

    Pac-Man
    Member

    It’s true. Many people CAN determine guilt by looking at the defendant. They may be wrong, but at least they think so. I think they should honestly let the judge know their perceived abilities.

    #777753

    Pacman… Nice trying to change what you said, but you advocated not telling the truth…for some reason you feel it is fine to be a frum Jew and lie to a judge…

    Read what you said…”announce you saw” basically tell the judge you saw the defendant commit the aledged crime

    #777761

    The Mods are very bias here…why else would they allow Pacman to say…

    “charlie: Did you ask this shaila to the Rabbi (Avi Weiss) where you pray?”

    we all know where Pacman was going with this…it was meant as a passive aggressive personal attack.

    If this is the way Yeshiva World News wants to operate, then I don’t want to be here anymore!

    Good shabbos and bye to those I enjoyed talking, debating and communicating with!

    #777762

    Health
    Participant

    Mike –

    “charlie: Did you ask this shaila to the Rabbi (Avi Weiss) where you pray?

    we all know where Pacman was going with this…it was meant as a passive aggressive personal attack.”

    While we all realize this is a put down -I don’t know what Charlie posted -it was deleted -maybe the put down was warranted.

    “Packman…a Jew should lie to a judge? Doesn’t sound very frum to me”

    There are times when one is allowed to lie. Lying to prevent being Oiver an Issur would be one of them. In the Court system -this would depend on the situation. I don’t think Joe holds that you can lie to a Judge whenever you feel like it.

    On a funny side note -there is now an ad for some bank card I saw on the net. The viking kid (with a beard of course) standing next to a chopped down cherry blossom tree with his ax, with Wash., DC in the background, says to his father -“I cannot tell a lie” and points to his goat and says -“He did it”. Very funny!

    #777763

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, did you ever ask the Shailah to your “Rabbi”, Yisroel Dovid Weiss?

    #777764

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gavra paskened it’s okay to shop around for rabbis by the shaila. 🙂

    Did not. and I am a Gavra, not a Posek.

    #777765

    mik5
    Participant

    Packman – Yes, there are countless ways to get out of jury duty, but we are not talking about that. This is a serious discussion of a specific circumstance, whether a Yid is halachically permitted to sit in judgment when two Yidden are fighting one another in secular court.

    The point is not to get out of jury duty b/c one wants to get out of jury duty; this was a halachic question about doing the right thing.

    Of course, a frum Yid is not supposed to report another Yid to a goyishe authority (with exceptions).

    #777766

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Dina Demalchusa Dina applies only in a country where the laws are neither arbitrary nor cruel, like they were in post-reconquista Spain, and that it does not apply to yaharog veal yaavor mitzvos, like bowing to a cross.

    You also posted an encouragement to lie to a judge in a country where the government is neither cruel nor arbitrary. If you did so b’meizid, it is a clear aveirah, a violation of dina demalchusa dina, among other issurim.

    #777767

    Y.W. Editor
    Keymaster

    Joseph, did you ever ask your Rov, (Rabbi Brog) if your allowed to continue the type of behavior you constantly have done, and continue doing here 9all being done “Lishem Shomayim”…..)

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