Kaparos Chilul Hashem

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  • #1591450

    Doing my best
    Participant

    as using chickens for kaparos seems to be creating a chilul hashem why don’t we just switch to money?
    Maybe there is a reason why using chickens is better than money?
    I’m not trying to advocate for the chickens, just wondering if we can find another halachacly equal to chicken solution for kaparos without a chilul hashem.

    #1592115

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Maybe just better chickens.

    #1592106

    adocs
    Participant

    Once again we seem to not understand the actual definition of chilul hashem.

    Why is kaparos with chickens a chilul Hashem?

    #1592110

    DovidBT
    Participant

    It was taught in a Baraisa in the name of R’Yehoshua ben Korchah: … So too, the Holy One, Blessed is He, said: Did I create domesticated and wild animals for any purpose other than [the benefit of] man?
    Sanhedrin 108a

    So maybe using chickens for kapparos is a Kiddush Hashem?

    #1592102

    Bshtei_Einayim
    Participant

    Why is it a chilul hashem? In general I think the chickens are treated in an a similar or equal manner to the way they are treated in chicken farms across the country. If not we should improve any areas that need improvement. It seems that the people causing trouble are very left wing rabble-rousers, and likely at least partially if not primarily influenced by antisemitic influences. If not why are they picking on a religious group rather then on the chicken farms themselves. There is clearly no extra pain to the chickens by coming out of the crates and getting air etc.

    #1592104

    skripka
    Participant

    It’s not a chillul hashem. The leftist Jews protesting and damaging property are creating a chillul hashem

    #1592101

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    What makes you think it’s a CH?

    The reason why we use chickens is because according to the MB it’s preferable to money.

    #1592068

    akuperma
    Participant

    The anti-kapores “activists” are basically neo-nazis, and should be dealt with accordingly. If someone wants to do kapores with money they certainly have sources to rely on, butg anyone who wishes to ban a Jewish minhag that is based on halacha , and uses force or threat of violence to get their way, is someone we should class with the likes of Hitler or Titus or Torquemada.

    #1592060

    1
    Participant

    It just means we have to practice the minhag in a kavodige way

    #1592048

    Ysiegel
    Participant

    If the world realizes that tefillin is made of real leather and start protesting its use and creation as a result, would then tefillin also be considered a chilul Hashem?

    #1591753

    laskern
    Participant

    The idea is that whatever is done to the fowl should be done to us which money does not shpw. We should be careful not do any tzar baal chaim to the kaparos by dangling its head down but cradle it.

    #1592061

    slominer
    Participant

    Bris Mila is another chillul Hashem. Circumcising an eight day old baby who cannot consent to a lifetime change to his body. It’s already banned in some places. We should just drop it.

    Not to mention the chillul Hashem of metzita bpeh.

    Another chillul Hashem that needs to stop immediately is shechita. The animal must be stunned before being butchered in order to reduce its pain. So many protests against it by good Americans have already taken place.

    There are so many other chillul Hashem’s of Jewish laws and customs that, too, must be reformed.

    #1592153

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    All of you have it wrong. Doing kaporos with a chicken is not a chilul hashem. It’s everything around it is.
    I’m not familiar with what happens in Brooklyn, but the upstate process has in the past been disgusting and a chilul Hashem.
    A. Usually no permits were obtained
    B. Chickens kept in cages,in hot weather with
    no water
    C. Slaughtering was done without regard to
    where the blood went
    D. At the end the day, the organizers left,
    leaving behind a stinking, smelly mess
    for others to clean up.

    #1592167

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Since when is Minhag Yisroel a chilul Hashem if done properly? These bleeding-heart Liberals would have us give up eating meat altogether, contrary to what the Torah expressly allows us – COMMANDS us, to do!
    They are poshut Apikorsim, and should be shunned and fought every step of the way!

    #1592173

    shimen
    Participant

    me thinks your a chilil hashem

    #1592175

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Just because people object to something for the wrong reasons doesn’t mean that there isn’t a real reason to object.

    #1592174

    Doing my best
    Participant

    “the idea is that whatever is done to the fowl should be done to us which money does not show”
    “The reason why we use chickens is because according to the MB it’s preferable to money.”
    Thank you for not attacking me, you actually answered my question!

    “If the world realizes that tefillin is made of real leather.”
    “Bris Mila is another chillul Hashem.”
    you simply attacked me without even trying to understand what I meant.
    when I said “another halachacly equal to chicken solution for kaparos” I very obviously meant only if we can replace it, as opposed to bris and tefillin.

    To all those who said there is no chilul hashem to the protesters, that may be, but there is a chilul hashem to those who hear about the protests. and even if elsewhere is a bigger chilul hashem, here can still be one also.

    #1592189

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Perhaps the original question can be reframed as when does it make sense to consider modifying how we perform a mitzvah where one can be yotzeh the mitzvah but do so in way that is less offensive to the larger community in which we live. There is one side that would argue to NEVER be intimidated into changing our minhagim to satisfy the goyim and “liberal” (aka secular) yidden while others would argue to be flexible and choose your battles strategically. I personally find the use of live chickens offensive but would much rather that the authorities ratchet up the application of health/animal cruelty/sanitation regulations versus banning the practice completey.

    #1592190

    Doing my best
    Participant

    “Just because people object to something for the wrong reasons doesn’t mean that there isn’t a real reason to object.”
    To me or my attackers? please clarify.

    #1592219

    GAON
    Participant

    The very Kaparos is indeed not a Chillul hashem. What you can ask is if the WAY it is done is.

    These so called leftist activists are against any shape or form of any animal eating…

    #1592432

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Kaparots is not a Chilul hashem

    Doing Kaparot on a hot day in Brooklyn with solid waste and the chickens getting thrown into the garbage and not used IS a Chilul Hashem

    #1592512

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    I just saw an article in the Lkwd Scoop about Kaparos and the improved treatment of their chickens. The water basin was too deep for the chickens to reach and too small for the flock. Every 4 chickens need 1 quart of water per day at the minimum. The feed was just placed on a rimmed cookie sheet that allowed the flock to deposit feces on their food. There are inexpensive feeders designed to keep this from happening. It’s a pity there is such a steep learning curve for the humane treatment of these creatures. A call to their local Extension Service (or a google) could place these folks on the right path when it comes to poultry care.

    I am not a PETA member but I’ve managed to keep backyard chickens in the years I haven’t lived rurally. It is not a steep learning curve. When I first started with chickens decades ago Extension Services was a valuable resource, that kept me and my hens healthy and happy.

    #1592568

    Joseph
    Participant

    Animals should be treated like animals, not humanely.

    #1592581

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Well Joseph, at least you won’t be mislabeled a compassionate conservative.

    #1592586

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Humanely means “in a way that shows compassion or benevolence.”
    there is no striah between treating animal like animals yet at the same time treating them humanely.

    #1592596

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Joseph, it is my understanding that kapparos chickens are given to needy families for food. Keeping their food free of feces is a good way to ensure that the humans who eat them don’t get ill. In my case I use their eggs, and the chances of salmonella increase with poor feeding practices. As to the water, chickens get thirsty too, what is wrong with ensuring that all get their chance at sufficient freshwater? Goodness it’s not like my chickens are coming in the house to sleep in my bed.

    #1592892

    akuperma
    Participant

    The welfare of chicken is not the issue. if you are so concerned with animal welfare you would refrain from domesticating them and become a stone-age reinactor.

    Those attacking kapores are anti-Semites just as surely as the Nazis were, and we need to treat them accordingly.

    #1592968

    Joseph
    Participant

    Amil, everything you described is how to treat animals like animals. No contradictions.

    Ubiq: Look at the shoresh of the word. It shows that goythink is to treat animals like pseudo-humans.

    #1593558

    laskern
    Participant

    ubiq, I 100% agree with you. Look at the Klei Yokor on ומוראכם וחתכם we can eat animals because we are greater than they are by learning Torah that is why an am haaretz is forbidden to eat meat, but it does not mean that we should be inhumane to them because at the same time the Torah forbids tzaar baal chaim.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  laskern.
    #1593559

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, the gemora in Baba Metzia says that Rebbi Yehuda Hanosi had stomach problems because he was harsh to a calf saying go to be slaughtered because that is why you were created.

    #1593560

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the photo essay of how to hold the chickens to be humane.

    Photo Essay: Yidden In Yerushalayim By Kaporos (Photos by JDN)

    #1593561

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Akuperma, i agree that animal welfare isn’t the sole reason. The main reason for objections is the conditions left behind by the organizers upstate. They would leave behind filth and the stench of the feces, dead chickens and blood. Would you want to be one of the nesrby residents?

    #1593592

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most of the time the chickens arent given to the poor, they are thrown away. The heat and the waste from the other animals usually makes the chickens unsafe to eat.

    There is a reason there are slaughterhouses, they process the meat safety and in a timely fashion so they are usuable

    #1593588

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Laskern it is extremely painful to the chicken to be held by it’s wings, and it is painful when you hold them by their legs upside down. The proper way to hold a chicken is to cup both it’s wings with your hands, gently but firmly. I’ve not seen one healthy chicken in any of the kaparos photos posted. All look like they are battery hens with breasts plucked clean from nervous pecking and some even exhibit clipped beaks. All are dirty with feces.

    #1593605

    DovidBT
    Participant

    If money is used instead of a chicken, is there a traditional amount of money to use?

    #1593619

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    How much do you pay for a kaparos chicken?

    #1593639

    Joseph
    Participant

    A kaporas chicken usually cost about $9 each. (If you also do shechita it’s usually about an additional $4 each.) Most people with the minhag get separate chickens for each spouse and child.

    There’s no particularly set amount of money required for those that have the minhag to use money for kaporas.

    #1593691

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Thanks, Joseph. I chose to use $20.

    #1593675

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Mazuz spoke recently about this. The article was on YWN: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1584386/rav-mazuz-use-money-for-kaparos-instead-of-chickens.html
    Speaking at a weekly shiur, Rosh Yeshivat Kisei Rachamim HaGaon HaRav Meir Mazuz Shlita spoke out regarding the minhag of Kaporos before Yom Kippur, stating that in the modern era it is preferable to give tzedaka instead of kaporos.

    The rav continued to explain: “I used to use chickens, but it made a mess in the home and sometimes it died on the way. It was not simple. Hence, I did hataras nedarim and began with using money. Giving money is preferable anyway, since it is not dirty, and we eliminate the issue brought up by the Ben Ish Chai, that a chicken sees the other being slaughtered and becomes fearful and its lung collapses.”

    He added, addressing the matter of cruelty to animals. “They take the chicken for the poor and the poor person says: They already brought me 100 chickens. Where will I put them all? I do not have a large freezer. If I keep them a bit here and there, then we can use it for Sukkos or Chanukah, during Cheshvan, Teves and Shevat and even have some remaining for Purim. This is simcha for the poor man? In addition, at times, the chicken is in a hot vehicle for hours and this is truly ‘tzar baalei chaim’”, he concluded.

    #1593706

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    For those that practice kaparos, why is it so hard to comply with basic sanitary codes and the safe handling of live poultry? I’ve seen children and adults handling chicken without gloves and not the least bit mindful of salmonella transmission from bird to human.

    #1593819

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    I’m sorry but the OP hasn’t the foggiest what chilul haShem really is. Just because someone doesn’t like it. doesn’t make it a chilul HaShem. The people ym’sh protesting kaporos are the same who would protest ANY shchita, bris mila, but never abortion which is bazillions times worse! They have no problem killing babier but the chicken, OH MY GOSH !

    Pay attention to whom your enemies are because it will tell you a lot about them and NEVER NEVER NEVER CAVE TO THESE MONSTERS!

    #1593820

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    amil zola,
    that’s funny, no one EVER heard of this happen! I’ve picked up chickens during kaporos for over 45 years and NOTHING happened.

    #1593883

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You do realize that that’s an ad hominem argument, don’t you? Also, if you say abortion is a billion times worse, you at least agree that torturing a chicken, which is only one billionth as bad, is still bad?

    #1594911

    yossie4731
    Participant

    kaporos chickens are not given to any poor people
    which lady today knows what to do with a freshly schected chicked ZERO!!!!
    they are all thrown out in the garbage
    this is pure nonsense

    #1594918

    Doing my best
    Participant

    Jersey Jew,

    I don’t understand, so if I take a rabbit and torture it every day and people stand there protesting, it’s not a chillul hashem because ” Just because someone doesn’t like it. doesn’t make it a chilul HaShem.”?-so then what is a chillul hashem?

    And just because you think they don’t really care about the chicken, it’s not a chillul hashem to those who see the protest on TV and do care about the chicken.

    “NEVER NEVER NEVER CAVE TO THESE MONSTERS!”
    If it doesn’t affect you, why not?

    #1594935

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    One can do a Mitzvah and do it in a Chilul hashem way. You can throw Pennies at a person asking for Tzdekah , Film it laughing while he picks up the pennies and post it on the internet.

    You gave Tzdekah ,but its still a Chilul Hashem

    #1594971

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    I saw some videos of the carnage clean up on a NYC street. No one can tell me that piles of dead chickens and blood strewn sidewalks is healthy and complying with city and state laws. Of course block voting may explain why nothing is done about it and taxpayers pay for the cleanup.And yea if you claim you’ve always seen kaparos vendors cleaning up after themselves for forty years take some videos and get them posted. Engage in a campaign that shows that the necessary sanitary laws are being kept.

    #1595003

    Bshtei_Einayim
    Participant

    Amil, Correct me if my gut is wrong, but my gut tells me that you are one of the protesters. Just my gut, mostly due to your total disregard of truth in your comments.

    #1594984

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    There’s a story that happened in Ner Yisroel a number of years back. Yom Kippur was like this year, on a Monday, and two bachurim were in charge of taking care of the chickens. Friday night they were eating at a Rebbi’s house (Rav Mintz SHLITA) and mentioned that they were keeping the chickens in a box in the dorm. He asked if they were fed and they replied no. Rav Mintz told the boys to drop everything and immediately go feed the chickens as halacha states that your animals must be fed before you eat.

    #1595100

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    #1595003REPLY
    Bshtei_Einayim You are wrong. I’m not a protester. If you feel that animal sacrifice is necessary to your faith do it by all means. Respect the creature you are using while it is alive with proper care and handling. Clean up your mess. Don’t let blood drain into city sewers or permit bags of dead creatures to litter the street when you are done with your ritual. Is this too much to ask for?

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