Kiddish/Chillul Hashem

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  • This topic has 131 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 5 months ago by KGN.
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  • #2038083
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    How do you define it because when a Ywn article states it you always have posters saying that’s not what it is

    #2038097
    ujm
    Participant

    1. Kiddish Hashem: Doing a Mitzvah in front of three or more Yidden.

    2. Chillul Hashem: Doing an averia in front of three or more Yidden.

    Example of 1: Mocking an apikorus.

    Example of 2: Eating in a treif restaurant.

    #2038102
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Ask your LOR

    #2038107
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ask your LOR

    That’s basically an admission that you don’t know.

    You’d be better off just not posting.

    סיג לחכחמה שתיקה

    #2038113
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    No that means WE ALL DONT KNOW, and when in doubt about something ASK A ROV

    #2038143
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Kiddush and Chilul Hashem has a specific definition but also has a looser definition. Like the word Mitzvah. Can mean a commandment (specific) or can mean a good deed or anything else that is positive (looser). So same thing with Kiddush and Chilul

    #2038140
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Speak for yourself

    #2038134
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Your average LOR or pulpit Rabbi would probably tell you a chilul/kidush Hashem means making sure the goyim and secular Jews like us. This is very foolish. They don’t like us regardless of how nice we act. The average gentile couldn’t care less about our Torah and how special we show ourselves to be.

    Ujm got it right. Just do the right thing. It makes no difference at all of how others perceive our actions as long as it is the correct way.

    #2038129
    ujm
    Participant

    The biggest Kiddush Hashem, and what should be the goal of us all, is to die Al Kiddish Hashem. See Brochos 20a, Sanhedrin 74a.

    #2038121
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Commonsaychel,

    My LOR doesn’t speak for posters of Ywn

    I want to know what posters say because when Ywn says “kiddush” or “chillul Hashem” and they comment it’s not

    So I want to bang it out and come up with something that everyone agrees with

    #2038215
    TS Baum
    Participant

    @Shimon Nodel
    So then what is the concept of Kiddush/Chilul Hashem for?
    Your saying that it doesn’t matter whether you make a kiddush Hashem or a chilul Hashem, they are both great, as long as it’s ‘the right thing’.

    Sounds like a pretty foolish thing to say.
    So you’re saying, in some cases (when you’re doing ‘the right thing’) making chilul Hashem is CH”V a good thing?

    #2038232
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    The definition of Kiddush Hashem is: Anything that increases Hashem’s honor in this world.
    If I, sitting in the total privacy of my own home, reach for my smartphone to access a trashy website, and then, deciding it won’t do anything good for my mind, decide to reach for a Jewish book (or better yet, a sefer) instead- that’s a kiddush hashem.
    If, during a conversation with a friend, I have the urge to relate a interesting bit of loshon Horace, but then think better of it and keep quiet- that’s a kiddush hashem.

    #2038236
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Ober the past decade or so ot has become the fashion in certain circles to limit the definition of Kiddush hashem.

    Although Ujm’s definition is certainly correct, it is only partly so

    For example: Rambam Gezeila 11:3 Where he says One may not return a lost item of a Goy’s unless returned to make a Kiddush Hashem, so that Goyim praise Jews as honest people (rough translation)
    Clearly having goyim viewing Jews as good/honest people is a Kiddush Hashem

    #2038250

    > They don’t like us regardless of how nice we act.

    Well, you could at least try and then it will be their fault. Or you can be as rude as you are sometimes trying, and justify their hate.

    #2038290
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “1. Kiddish Hashem: Doing a Mitzvah in front of three or more Yidden.

    2. Chillul Hashem: Doing an averia in front of three or more Yidden.

    Example of 1: Mocking an apikorus.

    Example of 2: Eating in a treif restaurant.“

    Ujm,

    Isn’t this a case of קידוש/חלול ה׳ ברבים

    #2038351
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Baum, precisely yes. That is exactly what I mean. I wouldn’t expect a lubavitcher chasid to grasp this mind blowing concept.
    It seems as though you’re under the absurd impression that Hashem needs your help to be mekadesh His name. That is similar to what Hindus believe. They think their gods need assistance.

    As long as we do the ratzon Hashem, it doesn’t matter in the slightest how it appears to others. Sof sof, Hashem orchestrates His world and His creations as He sees fit. You just do your part and don’t try ro be a back seat driver.

    #2038353
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    AAQ, maybe you have a habit of being rude to others. I was only talking about doing what’s right. We’re not here to be marketers for the world. We just do what Hashem wants, regardless of how others perceive us.

    Coffeaddict, no. Berabim would be 10 people. Specifically, עשרה מישראל

    #2038415
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Baum – no, making a chillul Hashem is not good. You are not hearing what he said. He said it is not a chillul Hashem to do the ratzon Hashem. Period. Doing the ratzon can’t be a chillul Hashem

    #2038446
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The Gaon or the ramchal (i forget which) writes that chilul Hashem derives from the word חלל, a void. By making a chilul Hashem,a person makes it look like Hashem chas veshalom isn’t in this particular place, because if he were, how can his mitzvah be disregarded?

    #2038479
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Scenario: A man is davening shacharis on a plane. To avoid kvetching let’s say he’s davening unobtrusively in a window seat. A flight attendant comes by with the drink cart and asks what he is doing and what those things he’s wearing are. His wife in the aisle seat explains that he is praying and since he is speaking with G-d he cannot interrupt the prayers to answer. The flight attendant refuses to listen to her and demands again that he answer. He is in the middle of shemoneh esrei and does not. The flight arrives at its destination and is met with police, who escort the shocked frum family off the plane in front of everyone. Kiddush Hashem or chillul Hashem?

    #2038616
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    so it sounds like AAQ is (once again) advocating for making a good impression, or preventing a bad impression as his definition of a chillul Hashem. So what he is saying is that is important to forfeit Hashem’s will if it will tick someone off or rub them the wrong way.

    You can’t have it both ways.

    So if strict kashrus insults a coworker, just relax your standards.
    If not going to the holiday party will make Jews look boring, be sure to relax that standard too. Especially if you were gonna go and just talk to the husbands.
    If making brochos on food will make Jews look weird, just whisper it quickly without moving your lips. Why worry about Hashem’s honor when someone may think you’re odd.
    If refusing to go out to lunch makes jews look stand offish, why hold to the silly chumras when you could join them and have a coke. How could it even be a question.

    And where do you draw the line? Oh! That’s easy, just put it five inches beyond the last thing your audience is expecting from you. I mean, you wouldn’t want to risk looking inflexible would you?

    Woe is to the one who does not see the respectful aspect of consistency and commitment to one’s values.

    #2038619
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    He kept halacha, so it’s a kidush Hashem. Not answering during shemoneh esrei applies even to a king, except for a goyishe king kr other goy who might kill him if he’s mafsik. Being thrown off a olane isn’t pikuach nefesh, so answering to avoid the suffering is no better than if a snake is wrapped around one’s leg – what he did was the ratzon Hashem and is a bonafide kidush Hashem.

    #2038701

    Syag, this AAQ guy you met somewhere and are describing here is a weird guy.

    #2038700

    Avram > man is davening shacharis on a plane.

    You should evaluate first whether there might be a problem. I once was on an elderly and fully booked Al Italia (O’H) flight with no good place to daven and unfriendly looking personnel. I could have stood in the corner semi-blocking the path and would possibly be able to resist pushing until finishing shmone esre. Instead, I went up to them and asked whether they can help me find a place to pray. They turned out to be good Polish Catholics and paskened “this plane needs some prayers” and organized a quite place for me well beyond my expectations.

    BTW, Eliyahu recognizes the problem and says that you should not pray in the ruins, and rather daven “tefila ktzira” (Brachos ~ 6)

    #2038719
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Unfortunately not one for self reflection.

    #2038697

    > I was only talking about doing what’s right. We’re not here to be marketers for the world

    R Salanter says: we should always advocate for Yiddishkeit. Sometimes even with words.

    We sign darchei Torah noah and even netivos are shalom – when we put Torah away, maybe so that we do not forget it

    I am sure there are cases when you need to stand up against what is happening. I am just afraid many people justify their rudeness this way. Check yourself – did you try all other ways? Did you go over all halokhos of tochacha before doing it?

    #2038762
    TS Baum
    Participant

    Well are the chilul shabbos protests in eretz yisrael a chilul Hashem?

    @ShimonNodel
    I was trying to clarify what you were saying, so you seem to be saying that you’re like a hindu?
    If a yid would be davening on an airplane, if he would davening out loud, not caring about anyone else around him. B’emes, he is doing the ratzon Hashem, meaning, he is davening with a lot of hislahavus and energy.
    But the other people on the flight are getting annoyed and this paints a picture that religious jews disturb people in order to do their commandments and make everyone else need to get irritated by it.
    So tell me, kiddush Hashem or chilul Hashem???

    #2038806
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Check yourself – did you try all other ways? Did you go over all halokhos of tochacha before doing it?”

    Check yourself – did you try all other ways to be uncompromising? Did you check the halachos about cutting corners before doing it?”

    #2038805
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    So basically you can’t follow this discussion? Shimon says following RATZON HASHEM cannot be chillul Hashem. And you bring up some weird scenario having nothing at all to do with halacha or yiddeshkeit or rational Hashem and ask if that was his point. Hello? Do you really not understand what following halachos means or are you pretending it means acting like a hindu.

    #2038804

    looked up halokhos of plane davening:
    star-k suggests spending money on hidur mitzva and buy a ticket that makes it possible to daven in a proper minyan on the ground

    R Schachter reminds that you sleep in the seat but time goes by where you fly over. Some sleep 5 hours at “night” and wake up after hatzos to say shma … He also writes this:

    However, it is highly improper for the chazzan of a minyan on an airplane to shout at the top of his lungs to enable the other mispalelim to hear him over the airplane noise, and thereby wake up all the passengers around him. It is true that there is a halachic principle of kofin al hamitzvos, i.e. that beis din has an obligation to force people to observe the mitzvos even when they’re not interested in doing so, but this only applies when pressuring an individual will result in his becoming observant. However, when Orthodox Jews disturb non-observant Jewish passengers with their davening, the non-observant passengers sill remain non-observant and now just have another point about which to be upset with the Orthodox. The practice of the Orthodox passengers under such circumstances appears simply as an act of harassment. Rather than having accomplished the hidur mitzvah of davening tefillah btzibur, they have violated lifnei iver by causing the non-observant passengers to become more antagonistic towards shemiras hamitzvos. The shouting tone of voice employed by the shaliach tzibbur to overcome the noise on the airplane clearly does not constitute a kavod hatefillah.

    he halacha states that when traveling, if it is too difficult to stand for shemoneh esrei even the “amidah” may be recited while seated. On a short flight of an hour and a half to Canada it is more correct to daven the entire tefillah while still buckled in, in a sitting position. On the long flight to Eretz Yisroel it is healthier to not sit the entire time; walking around somewhat helps the blood circulation in one’s legs. As such, there is nothing wrong with standing for shemoneh esrei, provided that there’s no turbulence at that time. However, it is still not proper to gather a minyan together near the washrooms, disturbing all the other passengers and the stewardesses. As much as various Torah giants of our generation have expressed their opposition to such minyanim on airplanes[2], their message has not yet been accepted. We wish everyone a chag kasher v’sameach, and all those traveling to Eretz Yisroel should have a safe trip, but keep in mind – these minyanim are shelo b’ratzon chachomim!

    [2] Rav Shlomo Wahrman ( She’eiris Yosef vol. 7, siman 3) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, page 75), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe Orach Chaim vol. 4 siman 20), Rav Ovadiah Yosef, and Rav Shmuel Wosner all objecting to minyanim on airplanes that disturb other passengers

    #2038818

    R Lebowitz 10-min lecture Dec 29, 2009. As he quips “here is the STANDING psak of many gedolim”: (each line below has a page reference that I omitted).

    Standing – to have better kavana, or as a servant, like bringing karbonos, Avraham stands “amida”
    you can sit on a donkey and daven (Rebbe, brochos), on a boat (brochos 30a) because it is scary, shaky. Getting off the donkey prolongs the trip. You can make donkey go 3 steps back. Standing will ruin kavona. On a wagon, if you can – stand, if not – sit. S’A If you daven sitting, then re-daven standing. M’B says no.

    on plane – R Moshe: if you daven sitting on the plane, do not repeat later, better to sit to begin with, but get up for bowing. R Wosner paskened for El Al’s Rabbi to direct passengers to daven in place and not do minyanim. R Auerbach – daven sitting on a plane, not to stand – you will be distract and distract others.

    Davening on a bus – not proper, just to save time. R Kanevsky allows getting off a bus when you are davening (including – it is better to continue davening off the bus!). So, if stewardess tells you to sit – you just sit down and contiue davening.

    #2038819

    Sephardi: when R Ovadia Yosef was flying to NY, some suggested to organize a minyan for him, but he refused, saying everyone should daven in his seat. His psak also: If saying amida while sitting, repeat amidah later but only as nedavah.

    #2038828
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Avrum asked a question. If you don’t want to answer, don’t answer.

    #2038837

    It seems to me from all this poskim that the answer to Avrum’s question is –
    1) l’hathila, do not stand up unless it is 100% not bothering anyone and not diverting your attention
    2) b’dieved, sit down seems like in the middle of shmone esre. I am not comfortable with this answer, frankly. R Lebowitz’s seems like the most expansive discussion, maybe listening to the original and looking up all his sources will help clarify
    3) l’humra from star-k – get yourself a more expensive flight seem to be a “first world answer” and contradict Gemora that lets one daven on a donkey lest one prolongs the trip, although maybe prolonging the trip is asur from sakonah (more time on the road, miss caravan, travel at night) and thus may not apply.

    #2038849

    Precise question – kidush or hillul Hashem? You start first with basic halakha – I quoted some above.
    My vastly incomplete understanding so far is that the person was not right starting davening standing and also should (rather than can) sit down when told. Again, I did not expect the latter part and not completely sure I am reading this correctly. I would appreciate other opinions.

    But, presuming the person was supposed halakhically to sit down and did not, this does not seem to be a kiddush Hashem if it is a violation of ratzon Hashem (aka halakha). It is hilluel Hashem? R Lebowitz who discusses a similar episode in newspapers, even quoting some bochrim who explain that “this was the right thing to do” milder as “not the best moment for the Jewish people” or something like that.

    If, on the other hand, he was not supposed to interrupt shmone esre, as most of us commonly assume, then it can’t be Hillul Hashem in that action.

    If he could have foreseen the problem, then it is clear from sources above that it is halakhically incorrect and possibly hillul Hashem – caused not by continue standing, but by starting standing. So, interesting nekuda here, that he was an over even before flight attendant came by, so consider her coming as a punishment for the previous aveirah.

    In a gray area, where he considered everything and then a wild flight attendant appeared out of nowhere, he may not be over.

    Now, an interesting inverted question – if he were to sit down (presuming it is halahkically correct): would that quiet action be considered Kidush Hashem? Or if he would be sitting whole shemone esre?

    You can say – how is this kiddush Hashem when it is not in anyone’s face?! (and it is not so inspiring to do a thing that nobody notices anyway, despite Gemorahs saying opposite, like grandson of Choney Hameagel in Tannis who hides from sheluchim his going to daven for rain, pretending that the cloud came by itself)

    Possible answer – someone sees other Jews doing it wrong and then sees this guy doing it right and concludes that this is a real Jews following real Torah and now he praises Hashem.

    #2038983
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I tried to head off the kvetching, but it happened anyway. Note in my example I said the man was davka davening in his seat. I even made it a window seat to ensure nobody was being blocked from going to the washroom, etc.

    #2039012
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It seems to me from all this poskim that the answer to Avrum’s question is –

    Seems to me you misread his question.

    #2039014
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, everyone, his name is Avram.

    #2039064
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See Yoma 86,1, ואהבת – שתהיה שם שמים מתאהב על ידך, love Hashem Yisborach such that He will be blessed through your actions and behavior. People will also bless their parents, yeshiva, them and vice versa.

    #2039103
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    “Also, everyone, his name is Avram.”

    😎

    #2039158
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As Avira and Shimon pointed out, if someone is following the halacha properly, it a kiddush Hashem, not a chillul Hashem.

    Halacha takes into consideration not to disturb people, etc, so TS Baum is totally missing the point when saying keeping the halacha can be a c”H.

    The fact that AAQ can’t answer Avram’s question in a direct manner demonstrates that some people conflate kiddush Hashem with making goyim happy and/or not doing anything to embarrass frum Jews.

    Although those frequently correlate, they are not synonymous, and if there is a conflict, following the halacha is ultimately the kiddush Hashem even if it looks strange and/or angers goyim, and violating Halacha is a chillul Hashem even if it seems to curry favor with goyim.

    #2039171
    TS Baum
    Participant

    I agree that Hashem’s ratzon can never be a chilul Hashem. But you can twist Hashem’s ratzon and claim and believe that what your doing is Hashem’s ratzon but it isn’t actually.
    I don’t go around thinking that as long as I’m doing Hashem’s ratzon, then I shouldn’t watch out that I could possibly be making a chilul Hashem. I go around trying to not make a chilul Hashem, period. If you go around thinking that whatever your doing can’t be a chilul Hashem, because in your mind your doing the ratzon Hashem. Don’t take me wrong, I believe that you do the ratzon Hashem all the time. But the mindset that whatever you do is okay, since its what Hashem wants, even if its a chilul Hashem is not lechatchila. Better to watch not to make a chilul Hashem, but of course, always, every single second, you should be doing the ratzon Hashem.

    #2039180
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    and if there is a conflict, following the halacha is ultimately the kiddush Hashem even if it looks strange and/or angers goyim, and violating Halacha is a chillul Hashem even if it seems to curry favor with goyim

    Why can’t it just be neither?

    #2039184

    > The fact that AAQ can’t answer Avram’s question in a direct manner

    I am saying that if there is a trace of inappropriate behavior in the man, that he is doing some aveira, however slight. Even if he is in a window seat.

    If you are suggesting a Zeresh character that attacks a totally innocent man because he is Jewish, then it is kiddush Hashem as is halakha when we are prosecuted as Jews. If she is simply a deranged person, then a kiddush Hashem and chesed would be to make her calm down by sitting down. Again, this presumes I understood the halakha properly that it is ok/desirable to sit down. That is why I brought those quotes. Let me know if you read this differently.

    #2039211
    ujm
    Participant

    “Why can’t it just be neither?”

    HaLeiVi: If following a halacha is ultimately angers goyim it is a Kiddish Hashem; of violating a Halacha makes the Goyim happy with us, it is a chillul Hashem if done. It isn’t neither. Why would you question whether it isn’t a Kiddish/chillul Hashem?

    #2039215
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I am saying that if there is a trace of inappropriate behavior in the man, that he is doing some aveira, however slight. Even if he is in a window seat.

    He was davening. I guess you think that’s inappropriate if it’s not outdoors??

    #2039219
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why can’t it just be neither?

    You don’t think it’s a kiddush Hashem to do a mitzvah?

    #2039236
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you are suggesting a Zeresh character

    The story didn’t say she was a Zeresh character or deranged. There would presumably not be a way to know

    The story didn’t describe any trace of an inappropriate action on the part of the frum couple. Why you inserted that is quite curious and perhaps informative.

    Why can’t you don’t answer that in the story as presented, he made no chillul Hashem?

    #2039240

    I was arguing against common occurrence of such cases and the perception that people have. If you want to answer Avram’s question literally – this guy is a tzadik and there is nothing that will happen. The attendant is requesting him “to answer” rather than “to sit” or “to stop”. I don’t think police is going to arrest him for that and if it does, it will be a fun legal case.

    #2039269

    DY > He was davening. I guess you think that’s inappropriate if it’s not outdoors??

    ?! Look up my posts above and review references therein of multiple gedolim pointing various nekudos what can be inappropriate, but you seem to be more interested in a hypothetical crazt flight attendant rather than in typical cases. If you do want to bring Covid into the picture, I have no problem with him davening, in fact, it becomes a medauraita rather than mid Rabonan! We would also need to indeed see why he is on the plane. If there is a mitzva involved, fine. But if he is on the way to a non-essential trip, then davening may be a sheretz b’yado.

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