King Charles and Queen Camilla

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  • #596593
    Englishman
    Member

    If you thought the pageantry of the Royal Wedding last week was elaborate, you ought to wait for when HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales and HRH Camilla, Princess of Wales ascend to the throne of England and her Commonwealths as King Charles and Queen Camilla!

    Who else is looking forward to when the Princess of Wales, Camilla, becomes Her Majesty, Queen Camilla?

    #763334
    Ofcourse
    Member

    I’ll be barfing. Two unattractive home-wreckers.

    #763335
    GumBall
    Member

    NOT ME!!

    #763336
    TheGoq
    Participant

    two words— who cares

    #2062147
    ujm
    Participant

    Apparently Charlie is getting impatient with Elizabeth hanging around so long. So he gets Covid and quickly infects his mother, in a not so apparently attempt to bring about his elevation to King and his wife’s coronation as Queen Camilla.

    All this shortly after Lizzie announced she wants Camilla to utilize the title of Queen Consort rather than deferring to use merely Princess Consort, as previously announced upon her marriage (when sensitivities to the immoral Diana were still raw enough not to want to offend the British press with the idea that Camilla will be Queen, something Diana was [rightfully] denied.)

    #2062158

    ujm, I suspects the same. Very Shakespearean drama: risking his own life for the throne …
    Note that paranoid Putin is more careful than the Queen – he meets people at a 6 meter-long table. Hope, she is healthier, though.

    #2062179
    Hohum
    Participant

    He’ll be king and she’ll be queen, it’s as simple as that.

    #2062337
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    yawn

    #2062358
    huju
    Participant

    TheGoq’s comment from 2011 is still on point.

    #2062395
    jackk
    Participant

    Englishman,

    It is an opportunity.(Berachos 58A)
    אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: לְעוֹלָם יִשְׁתַּדֵּל אָדָם לָרוּץ לִקְרַאת מַלְכֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל. וְלֹא לִקְרַאת מַלְכֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל בִּלְבַד, אֶלָּא אֲפִילּוּ לִקְרַאת מַלְכֵי אוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם, שֶׁאִם יִזְכֶּה — יַבְחִין בֵּין מַלְכֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לְמַלְכֵי אוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם.
    Rabbi Yoḥanan said: One should always strive to run toward kings of Israel to greet them. And not only should he run toward kings of Israel, but also toward kings of the nations of the world, so that if he will be privileged to witnesses the glory of the Messiah (Rashi) and the World-to-Come, he will distinguish between the kings of Israel and the kings of the nations of the world.

    Are you looking forward to the pomp and circumstance of Queen Elizabeth’s funeral first?

    #2062444

    R Yohanan says when dying “be afraid of King of Kings (at least ?) as the mortal Kings”. Given lack of power for the current monarchs, we should observe carefully remaining dictators – Hu, Putim, Kim, to appreciate what yerat shamayim is.

    #2062619

    Dictators are not [i]melachim[/i], who rule by the will of their people,
    but [i]moshlim[/i], who rule against the will of their people.

    #2062625

    <i>(It’s been a while.)</i>

    #2062644

    (Sigh.)

    whatcha sighing about?

    #2062703

    Not getting it right the first 2 times.

    #2062711

    Random, a good point on melachim. This would exclude Kims, while Hu and Putin exist by some quiet agreement of their countries who did not come to rebel against them. Not different from melachim of the past who did not have frequent elections. The idea of democracy was considered unworkable for most of history between Athens and modernity – and, for me at least, it is still unclear whether it works and clearly pure democracies are bound to fail.

    #2063019

    ( “Direct democracy or pure democracy is a form of democracy in which the electorate decides on policy initiatives without legislative representatives as proxies. This differs from the majority of currently established democracies, which are representative democracies.” – Wikipedia )

    #2063071

    Random, thanks for looking up wiki for me…

    #2063911

    Sorry, I shouldn’t have assumed you were using “pure democracy” carelessly.
    (At least it’s useful to anyone unaware of the meaning of the term.)

    Regarding the “quiet agreement” of the Russian people…

    DICTATOR PUTIN CRACKDOWN: Hundreds Arrested As Russians Protest Ukraine Attack

    #2063928

    Random, hundreds in the country of hundred million… Kol hakavod to them, of course, and understanding the risks others are afraid to take, but still… Check out Putin’s popularity, even if you can’t fully believe those surveys

    #2064401
    takahmamash
    Participant

    “He’ll be king and she’ll be queen, it’s as simple as that.”

    Incorrect, as has already been pointed out. He will become King, she will be the Queen Consort, not “the Queen.” There is a difference, Hohum, that you have failed to grasp.

    #2068158
    RR44
    Participant

    Hey, what’s all the rudeness about the Brittish melucha? Where’s the basic respect and kibbud melochim?

    What happened to לעולם יתפלל אדם בשלומה של מלכות

    #2068174
    ujm
    Participant

    Non-British subjects (which constitutes the vast majority of the participants here as well as the world) need not respect or pray for the British royals.

    #2068321

    I think the halakha is that you say a brocha seeing a monarch even when you are not a subject. You run to see him/her to appreciate a glimpse of power that is a small reflection of Hashem’s power.

    Not sure about Americans. Maybe it is not appropriate of the colonies are still considered to be in rebellion. Not sure of treaty of Paris closed that chapter.

    But to RR44, they are not reigning yet, so we should put it on record what we think of them now.

    #2068418
    ujm
    Participant

    There’s no mitzvah or reason for anyone to respect or honor the kings of Swaziland, Ghana or of Nigeria.

    #2069085
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What happened to לעולם יתפלל אדם בשלומה של מלכות

    Well, this brings up an interesting question in the modern age. What is meant by “malchus?” It is the pagentry, pomp, dignity and history of the institution of the monarchy as personified in its current occupant? Or is it the actual governing power and the ability to change matters for the Jews favorably or unfavorably? If the former, the “malchus” in the UK is clearly the Queen. If the latter, it could easily be argued that it’s Parliament, who not only holds the everyday legislative power, but even has the power to remove the monarch or even abolish the monarchy altogether.

    The Wolf

    #2069094
    ujm
    Participant

    Wolf: The British Parliament lacks unilateral power to remove the monarch or abolish the monarchy since the monarch can deny such an act royal assent, which would effectively ensure such an act doesn’t become legally effective.

    #2069107
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: The British Parliament lacks unilateral power to remove the monarch or abolish the monarchy since the monarch can deny such an act royal assent, which would effectively ensure such an act doesn’t become legally effective.

    While that may be technically true, it isn’t on a practical level. I’m pretty sure James II did not assent to the ruling of Parliament that he had abdicated the throne, and yet, at least in England, it was considered effective.

    The Wolf

    #2069174
    ujm
    Participant

    Wolf: That’s absolutely incorrect. Great Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy (even though the United Kingdom lacks a written constitution) and a strict adherent to the rule of law. Indeed, the rule of law is one of the longest established common law fundamental principles of the governance of the United Kingdom, dating to Magna Carta of 1215. Britain could not and would not in the modern era discard the rule of law and its own constitutional principles to allegedly effect an act or law that is constitutionally void and legally invalid, such as purporting to extra-constitutionally effect an act that lacks legal legitimacy under the rule of law due to a lack of royal assent.

    #2070824
    ujm
    Participant

    Wolf: Awaiting your rejoinder or concession.

    #2122414
    ujm
    Participant

    Elizabeth’s health is deteriorating.

    #2122483
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Most people would rather skip him for Prince William.

    #2122492
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, send a memo to Charles to abdicate, Edward VIII style.

    #2122510
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Many countries like Israel has a President and Prime Minister where the President is in the place of the queen non-political representing the country. In the US the flag is suppose to do that.

    #2122536
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Queen Elizabeth II has died at around 1:30 PM at 96 being on the throne around 71 years.

    #2122562
    ujm
    Participant

    Long live the King!

    #2122597
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Malchus is something we should learn to incorporate into our lives; we’re supposed to give honor to royalty because we can use it as a springboard to having respect for the real King of Kings. A bracha is made with shem Hashem on a king, because through seeing the middah of malchus down here, we can relate to malchus in shomayim. Malchusa d’arah ke’ain malchusa de’rakiah, chazal say.

    It’s not a surprise that England is far ahead of most of the world in refinement, and proper behavior. Their culture has malchus wired into it; American culture, on the other hand, is rebellious by nature.

    #2122612
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Can the Chief Rabbi attend the service at Westminister Abby?

    #2122637
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Camilla can never be queen due to an agreement signed by Queen Elizabeth, Charles and Camilla in 2005 prior to their marriage.

    #2122638
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #2122660
    ujm
    Participant

    “Can the Chief Rabbi attend the service at Westminister Abby?”

    Absolutely not.

    #2122663
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    At the time of the Queen’s Jubilee chief rabbi Mervis attended a prayer service for the Queen at St. Pauls. It has been explained that since the 1970’s the London Beis Din approved attendance if the Chief Rabbi was invited by the monarch. So if invited the chief rabbi could attend, unless the London Beis Din revokes their prior permissions.

    #2122668
    Participant
    Participant

    Why is the wife of a King called Queen, but the husband of a Queen is a prince?

    #2122667
    Participant
    Participant

    “It’s not a surprise that England is far ahead of most of the world in refinement, and proper behavior.”

    Eh, what????

    “Their culture has malchus wired into it”
    Their culture eroded any meaning of the word Malchus. In other words, Britons associate a “monarch” with “long robes and crown”

    #2122671
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    It maybe part of his job

    #2122680
    ujm
    Participant

    Amil: Incorrect. Firstly, Queen Elizabeth just seven months ago expressed her “sincere desire” that Camilla be known, recognized and titled as the Queen Consort once Charles ascends. Secondly, that decision by Elizabeth replaced the *informal* announcement at the time of Charles’ marriage that it was their “intention” that Camilla be known as Duchess after his ascension.

    But even had that earlier intention not been changed by Elizabeth this year, Camilla would still under British law have been the Queen Consort and would have formally had that title, even had she chosen to refer to herself as Duchess.

    All hail for Her Majesty The Queen Consort Camilla!

    #2122682
    ujm
    Participant

    “Why is the wife of a King called Queen, but the husband of a Queen is a prince?”

    Participant: Because the title King is a higher title than Queen. So if the Queen is the sovereign, her husband cannot have a higher title than herself, namely King. But if the King is the sovereign, his wife may have the lower title of Queen.

    #2122684
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    UJM, just a reminder, I’m a female. I’m surprised you’ve set aside your convictions to reply to me. QC is a title with zero power, she can never be an HRH.

    #2122685
    DovidBT
    Participant

    Can the Chief Rabbi attend the service at Westminster Abby?

    Jonathan Sacks, the former Chief Rabbi, attended the royal wedding there in 2011.

    #2122686
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Kings and queens in the UK can only inherit their titles via their royal blood lines. Camilla will be married to the King but not be a HRH since she married into the bloodline ergo consort. This is simple to understand with a mere google.

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