KIPPOT SERUGOT

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  • #617970

    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    Kippot Serugot with pattern around- does the pattern symbolize anything?

    the traditional white kippa with blue pattern worn commonly by chutznik zionists or OUnikers

    #1159252

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    stupid question. Get a life

    #1159253

    lesschumras
    Participant

    There is no meaning to designs other than beauty

    #1159254

    Joseph
    Participant

    When was the kipot serugot invented and why’d those folks switch over to it from the earlier types of yarmulkas worn?

    #1159255

    takahmamash
    Participant

    I only wear my white kippah on Shabbat or chagim. They get dirty too quickly otherwise.

    #1159256

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    What difference does it make which Kippah you wear. Your head is supposed to be covered. Where does it say by what?

    Also, what of those guys that wear their Yarmulkahs on the side of their head, leaving the top nearly uncovered? Is that ok?

    People need to learn what’s really important not this nonsense that divides people.

    #1159257

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    There is nothing wrong with wearing a kipa seruga. The only question that could arise is WHY does a person want to wear a kipa seruga? Here too, if the answer is “that’s what my dad wears,” there’s not much to say to than, except maybe that HIS dad most likely did not wear one. Possible food for thought. In general, in E.Y, the kipa one wears is a statement that announces “I identify with the group that wears a kipa seruga,” or that “I don’t identify with the group that wears it.” Perhaps in the U.S., it’s less part of a “uniform” than in E.Y.

    #1159258

    Joseph
    Participant

    The only reason a kipa is perceived by some as being used to identify with a group, is because that’s why the kipa sruga was invented. Prior to it’s introduction not that many decades ago, a yarmulka wasn’t popularly thought of as being a group identifier. As you pointed out, those wearing it today either switched to it or their (grand)father did so from what he was wearing previously.

    So the question, as you said was food for thought, was why the switcheroo.

    #1159259

    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    Chevra perhaps you can relate back to the original question and not go off topic. I know this is a very controversial topic but the question itself is not.

    #1159260

    yichusdik
    Participant

    The pattern, or dugma, can be anything, really. Some have a repeating pattern, like the walls of Yerushalayim, for example. Others have the symbols of various brigades in the IDF. many are simply geometric, and some (like most of mine) are one colour with no pattern. They can also be made with a person’s name on them. the dugma is completely variable.

    #1159261

    writersoul
    Member

    I have a friend who crochets and sells kippot srugot. She has a bunch of customizable patterns and takes special requests. Literally a little bit of everything- she’s even crocheted sports logos and the American flag on request. So I don’t think it’s a big deal what the dugma is.

    #1159262

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Joseph: Where did you come to that conclusion? Growing up in Boro Park, in those days most people wore a Kippa Seruga and it wasn’t a big deal about anything. I don’t know who turned the Yarmulka into group symbols but it accomplished dividing people and that’s insidious.

    The best yarmulkah to wear is the one that is 1/2 suede and 1/2 kippa serugah. All this nonsense needs to stop.

    Without repeating the whole story, remember the one about Moshiach coming and being rejected for what he was wearing and gives up and leaves. Effectively, that is what is being accomplished with all this baloney.

    The biggest joke is the one in a Chassidish children’s book that has Moshe Rabbeinu pictured in a Streimel. Everyone who thinks that what is on their head makes them superior to other Frum Jews in a moron.

    #1159263

    147
    Participant

    it accomplished dividing people and that’s insidious. BarryLS1:- If this is your assertion, then according to your assertion, only men would be divided, and women would be totally “????? ???????” since they don’t wear a Kippa. So are women totally “????? ???????”? or what is the cause of women not having harmony ?? ????? as we go into the 3 weeks?

    #1159264

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    a kipa is perceived by some as being used to identify with a group

    I wear a kippah serugah. It’s large and completely black. So I guess that means that I identify with very modern Chareidim??

    The Wolf

    #1159265

    I don’t know why this question is even relevant. Only a goy would wear a kippah serugah.

    #1159266

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    147: And you don’t think women have the same issues with their head coverings?

    Veltz Meshugener: “Only a goy would wear a kippah serugah.” I guess your name fist you! You just highlighted the problem. Maybe only a “GOY WOULD WEAR” A STRIEMEL, since it was copied from Russian and Polish noblemen?

    While I don’t mean that comment, (just reversing it on you) you tragically do. How ignorant can you be! BTW, I don’t wear a Kippa Seruga, so it’s not a personal issue for me. Just that the attitude you demonstrated sickens me and harms Klal Yisroel.

    #1159267

    midwesterner
    Participant

    The serugah people can not have it both ways. Some of them put it on as a symbolic statement of sorts, then demand that you recognize no inherent difference.

    Someone once went to Rav Shteinman and showed him two Yarmulkes, one regular black velvet and the other seruga. He asked if there is any difference. Rav Shteinman replied that there is no difference. The fellow then complained, “My son’s school wants to expel him for wearing the seruga!” Rav Shteinman responded, “So if there’s no difference, why doesn’t he just wear the black one?”

    #1159268

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    When I was growing up, my father wore a leather or suede kippah. My brothers and I all wore velvet ones. When I got older, and was able to buy them for myself, I started wearing plain black knit kippot, as I found them more comfortable than the velvet ones.

    My wife told me she liked the ones with the designs, and asked if I could wear them, as she just preferred them. To make my wife happy, I now wear a kippah srugah with a pattern. The exception is for the Yomim Noraim, I have a plain white knit kippah.

    So I don’t do it to identify with a group. I do it out of comfort and to make my wife happy.

    #1159269

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yet the KS was originally created to be a group identifier for the folks who switched to it, to set themselves apart.

    #1159270

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    VM, nice job.

    #1159271

    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Hmm, I wonder what all the Sruga-bashers have to say about the knit Yarmulkas worn by the Rav Arelach? Just sayin’…

    an Israeli Yid (currently in CHU”L, where it’s not yet Shabbos)

    #1159272

    Sam2
    Participant

    midwesterner: Because that’s human nature. If we do things that are meaningless yet innocuous and are attacked for it, we defend our actions. The person doesn’t want to switch because there is no reason to. And it is usually very upsetting (and a little emasculating and/or dehumanizing) to be forced not to do something that is perfectly okay to do just because someone else doesn’t want you to.

    #1159273

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If it were really meaningless, he wouldn’t be stubborn about keeping it.

    #1159274

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, you can make yhe same point about people who wear a black Bordallino. When I grew up, men wote snap brim hats of all different shades. Why the switcheroo to black Borsallinos?

    #1159275

    oomis
    Participant

    There is no specific halacha bedavka to wear a kippah. The halacha is to wear a head covering to denote Yirah Malka (hence, Yarmulke). My zaidie in Europe O”H wore something on his head that looked nothing like the kippot of today, more like a box. It is a pet peeve of mine that some people are more concerned with what is covering the head, than the fact that the head is being covered. What is under the kippah, is far more important than the kippah itself. And that among other things, is what causes divisiveness.

    #1159276

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If it were really meaningless, he wouldn’t be stubborn about keeping it.

    Sometimes people just like something better, It might have no halachic meaning, but just an esthetic meaning.

    Like wearing a white shirt vs a Polo type shirt. Doesnt have a religious meaning, but the wearer might like the Polo Type better

    #1159277

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: That’s not true. It’s human nature. Imagine you enjoy humming along while you walk. Then someone comes up and says that he’ll kick you out of shul if you keep doing it. Humming isn’t a meaningful activity, but you’re not going to stop just because someone makes up some meaningless attack on it.

    #1159278

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Meh.

    Schools have uniforms, and unless he was making a point, he wouldn’t have his kid rebel.

    If he weren’t trying to make a statement, he wouldn’t sacrifice his kid because he had some meaningless preference.

    #1159279

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: It depends on whether it was a school rule that he violated or whether they made the rule post facto once he wore the Kippah. If the former, I agree with you. If the latter, I agree with me.

    #1159280

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Joseph: Repeating a statement over and over doesn’t make it so. Your last comment can be said about anything, i.e. Black hat or streimel, etc.

    As long as no Halacha is being broken, why should anyone care what’s on someone else’s head?

    #1159281

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is something seriously wrong if you think wearing is kippa Seruga is “Rebelling”. What would you call tattoing and Body piercing then

    #1159282

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You are not considering the context.

    #1159283

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Maybe. The story needs more details.

    #1159284

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Most likely, this was a chareidi school where the rule (even if unofficial) is to wear velvet or tight woven cloth.

    They most certainly should have given a warning, and I’d be shocked if they didn’t.

    If by some chance they didn’t, (and this was the only issue) the issue isn’t yarmulkas, it’s that they didn’t give him a chance to comply.

    #1159285

    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re disagreeing with Rav Shteinman, Sam?

    #1159286

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Rav Shteinman responded, “So if there’s no difference, why doesn’t he just wear the black one?”

    That’s not an answer, that’s a dismissal.

    There are plenty of reasons why he might want to wear the other yarmulke. Perhaps he likes the color better. Perhaps it stays on his head better. Perhaps it feels more comfortable for him. Perhaps it has sentimental value for him (it was made/given to him by someone who means a lot to him).

    The Wolf

    #1159287

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We do not know exactly what Rav Shteiman was asked, or who asked it. Or exactly what he answered

    We are only hearing 3rd or 4th hand of a translation . In many cases Gedolim give different answers to differnet people depending on circumstances and even if this story was related fact for fact it could have been mistranslated

    #1159288

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: I’m saying what the father’s answer to Rav Shteinman probably was/should have been. And it’s a pretty strong answer. Maybe R’ Shteinman would have had an even stronger response after that.

    DY: I agree. The story needs many more details to be useful/meaningful

    #1159289

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s not an answer, that’s a dismissal.

    You’re criticizing Rav Shteinman, Wolf?

    #1159290

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s not an answer, that’s a dismissal.

    No, it was a sharp answer.

    #1159291

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No, it was a sharp answer.

    No, it was a dismissal, because he refused to consider any of the possible alternatives. He also refused to consider the alternative of “if it makes no difference, then why should the school expel him?”

    The Wolf

    #1159292

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, it was a sharp answer, because there are no real alternate possibilities, just rhetoric.

    #1159293

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No, it was a sharp answer, because there are no real alternate possibilities

    Yes there were. I even provided a few possible legitimate reasons why he might not want to wear the one the school wanted. Given the facts as presented, he didn’t even ask why the kid would want to wear a different yarmulke – he basically indicated that there was no possible reason to want to wear a different one.

    The Wolf

    #1159294

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You’re criticizing Rav Shteinman, Wolf?

    Criticizing? No. Disagreeing? Given the facts as presented, yes. I’m not required to believe that any rav is incapable of error.

    I’ll grant that there is the possibility that there is more than being presented here and, if so, then perhaps I would not disagree. But, as presented, I do.

    The Wolf

    #1159295

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not even relevant why the child might “want” to wear a kippah serugah; if the school told him not to, he shouldn’t.

    If the type of kippah someone wears was really completely immaterial (pardon the pun), we wouldn’t be having this discussion, and the story never would have happened. You won’t hear this story about a four section black velvet yarmulke vs. a six section black velvet yarmulke.

    Whether you like it or not, yarmulke styles do represent hashkafos.

    What the father was doing was pointing to the fact that there’s no inherent value to a particular style, to which Rav Shteinman agreed, but Rav Shteinman pointed out the father’s hypocrisy in that he obviously personally wanted to be able to superficially represent his hashkafos (otherwise it wouldn’t be worth disobeying the school policy and getting expelled) but he didn’t think the school had a right to superficially represent its hashkafos through a policy regulated what it’s students can wear.

    #1159296

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Whether you like it or not, yarmulke styles do represent hashkafos.

    Right now, I have a very large, completely black kippah serugah on my head. So, what hashkafah to I represent? Modern Chareidi?

    It’s not even relevant why the child might “want” to wear a kippah serugah; if the school told him not to, he shouldn’t.

    It may not be relevant, but it still obviously mattered. That’s *exactly* the kind of situation that calls for further discussion to get to the root of why it matters, rather than just a “do it because that’s the rule” type of answer.

    The Wolf

    #1159297

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Whether your yarmulke represents a common stream is irrelevant to the story. (My best guess is that you are making a statement that you are not making a statement.)

    No, it didn’t call for further discussion. It’s a sensible rule under the circumstances, and if you don’t wish to follow the rules, find a different school.

    #1159298

    yytz
    Participant

    Why would the moderators allow a response like “Stupid question. Get a life?” What possible justification could there be for allowing that? It’s simply an insult.

    That said, I doubt the patterns themselves have a meaning.

    Black knitted kippas are interesting because they are found among all segments, from non-Orthodox to Charedi (even if velvet is the most common among the latter).

    People should wear whatever they prefer. Very small ones should be avoided because there is an opinion that it should be identifiable as a headcovering from all angles.

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