February 17, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #595097
my family and i are involved with the program “see you on shabbos”. i recently received a request for friday night only from a “conservadox” physician who recently moved to nyc since “A….. is no place for a single jewish male”. he works in an ER on shabbos mornings. my rov told me that i should not invite him as he would certainly drive home after the seudah.
how do the repected members of the ywn coffee room deal with a situation like this? should i invite him for a meal during the week, introduce him to a kiruv professional,etc, or should i not have any further contact with him until his situation changes?
i await your responses.February 17, 2011 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #742171bezalelParticipant
These situations are inevitible in the “See You on Shabbos” program. You should discuss with your rov whether or not you should be involved with this program.February 17, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #742172Mayan_DvashParticipant
Whether I agree or disagree, you should not disrespect your rov like this.February 17, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #742173
Once your RAV told you not to, what is the point in asking the question? You already have your answer.
Had you NOT asked your RAV I would have suggested that you ask the question to a RAV involved in kiruv. Their answer might have been different. Their suggestion might have been to ask where he lives so that you could set him up with someone in his vicinity so that he can truly enjoy the Shabbos experience without driving there. Or he might have told you since he will drive regardless of whether he comes to you or not you are not making him drive so it is ok to invite him. And the kesher he makes with you might be a catalist for him to become shomer torah and mitzvos.February 17, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #742174RedNails19Participant
what betzalel said- ASKFebruary 17, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #742176
There are various halachic opinions whether one could/should invite a non-frum person for a Shabbos meal and also how to go about doing it.
But even a frum physician has a heter to drive home on Shabbos if by doing so it may get him to his patients quicker and thus save a human (maybe a Yid) life.February 17, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #742177ConcernedMemberParticipant
His Rav said not to invite the man on Shabbos. He’s now asking whether he should invite him during the week instead, or have him talk to others.
How is this disrespecting his Rav? He clearly took the Rav’s advice to heart and is looking for an alternative means of helping the person.February 17, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #742179
several of the responders TOTALLY misunderstood what i wrote. CHAS V’SHALOM would i do anything to contradict my rov. under no circumstances will i invite him for a SHABBOS meal at this time. my query is directed to what, if anything i CAN do in this case as this individual has expressed an interest in frumkeitFebruary 17, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #742180apushatayidParticipant
Doc. Why dont you ask your Rav?February 17, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #742181Derech HaMelechMember
Maybe explain to him that Jewish Law prevents you from being able to give him the experience of a Shabbos so long as he will drive to/from your house. Maybe he would be interested in spending an entire Shabbos by you when he doesn’t have to go in Shabbos morning. Maybe Purim or Pesach. If he is interested in learning more about Judaism maybe he would be interested in Partners in Torah or an Aish program. There must be plenty of options.February 17, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #742182
in response to apushatayid i have asked my rov. i am merely interested in the experiences and stratagies of othersFebruary 17, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #742184msseekerMember
ConcernedMember: His Rav said not to invite the man on Shabbos. He’s now asking whether he should invite him during the week instead, or have him talk to others.
How is this disrespecting his Rav? He clearly took the Rav’s advice to heart and is looking for an alternative means of helping the person.
doctormdmd: several of the responders TOTALLY misunderstood what i wrote.
EXACTLY. Which is why I hardly ever post here. The reading miscomprehension is unbelievable.February 17, 2011 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #742185
He has a wise Rabbi who knows Kiruv.February 17, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #742186
msseeker i dont know why you dont believe in reading comprehension programs. i think they are very helpful. and what does that have to do with this thread anyway?
and of course this isnt a post office, its a forum.February 17, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #742187Feif UnParticipant
As was said before, there are differing opinions on having over someone who will drive. I once asked, and was told that you should offer to host the person for the entire Shabbos, so they don’t have to drive. Even if you know they’ll refuse, once you make the offer, it’s ok to invite them.February 17, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #742188charliehallParticipant
“my rov told me that i should not invite him as he would certainly drive home after the seudah.”
My rav told me that there is absolutely no problem with inviting someone who would certainly drive home after the seudah as long as I make it possible for the person to spend the night if he wishes. And after he told me this, he confirmed it with a very prominient posek that that is in fact the halachah.February 17, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #742189
Even forgetting the punishment for violating Shabbos is very severe and it is quite difficult to imagine a justification to enable someone else to violate it, it is counterintuitive to supposedly invite someone for ‘kiruv’ to allegedly get them to keep Shabbos — by having them violate the very Shabbos you’re supposedly trying to convince them to keep!February 17, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #742190popa_bar_abbaParticipant
There is a well known machlokes among contemporaty poskim whether one is allowed to invite people on shabbos if one knows they will be mechalel shabbos.
Everyone should follow their Rav. Like doctormdmd is doing.
It is worth recalling that the only “end” in Judaism is “ratzon Hashem”. If G-d does not want you to invite him because it is chillul shabbos, you are not doing a mitzva if you do it.February 17, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #742191
and i was told by a well known Posek that the Halachah is that you must make it absolutely clear to the person that he may not come to a Shabbos Seudah if he is going to drive home afterwards, no hinting, no suggestions, absolute instructions.February 17, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #742192Feif UnParticipant
Can we all just agree that this is a machlokes poskim, everyone should follow his/her Rav, and leave it at that?February 17, 2011 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #742193
yes feif-un you are exactly correct
(which is why i didnt post that opinion until some else very authoritatively posted a different opinion)February 17, 2011 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #742194
Yet according to the poskim that disallow it, someone who does it — even with a rabbi’s permission — is causing the lav m’doraysa of chillul Shabbos.February 17, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #742195ramateshkolianMember
Hi- OF COURSE you should have contact with him during the week. Offer to learn something Judaism related once a week at night…invite him to come on a trip with your family on sunday…for sure purim/purim party etc. Another idea could be for you or someone else to start a learning group in the hospital where he works–a lunch/learn during lunch break. There MUST be other Jewish doctors and bring some pizza or chinese and have a learning discussion once a week. he can get involved by helping you organize it. DONT give up on one Jew just because one way didn’t work out…and if you let him know why you can’t invite him, he may want to learn more, or come when he is not working…. good luck!!!!February 17, 2011 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #742196stuck in brooklynMember
I agree with “ramateshkolian”. Don’t give up! I’m actually suprised to see how HARSH some of the responses are! I grew up in a really out-of-town community, where kiruv was a way of life for those who were frum. All I can say, based on some of your responses, B”H you guys live in NYC where you are surrounded by the frum and hardly ever have any interaction with the less religiously fortunate, because your responses have potential to turn into a chillul Hashem.February 17, 2011 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #742197
What you might think is a “chillul Hashem” does not override what is clearly chillul Shabbos.February 17, 2011 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #742198
Many poskim are of the opinion that if the Jew is a m’challel Shabbos, he will be driving somewhere regardless,i.e., to get gas or to the movies or shopping, and you are not the cause of his chillul Shabbos by inviting him for a Shabbos meal.February 17, 2011 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #742199
many Poskim are not of that opinionFebruary 17, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #742200
Correct, but many are.February 17, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #742201
correct, but many are notFebruary 17, 2011 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #742202HaLeiViParticipant
As Ramat said, the best thing you can do, is to learn with him. Keep up the contact with him. I don’t think a regular supper comes close to a Shabbos meal, but it can be helpful just to keep up with him. It is important for him to be invited for Shabbos meals. Therefore, you can contact some nearby organisation.February 17, 2011 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #742204
How difficult could it be to find a shomer shabbos family that lives in his vicinity or halfway between you and him to invite both of you for a Shabbos meal so you can both walk it? That would probably be the best way to handle it. Another way is to invite him to have lunch with you and make a point of making your brochos out loud and explain them to him. Invite him to a simcha you are attending and explain what is going on and why. Take him over to a yeshiva and show him how the kids learn from the youngest to the oldest. Explain to him why WE respect our women so much and the concept of modesty, etc.February 18, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #742205observanteenMember
Mod 80 LOL. Perfect parody. So perfect, in fact, that I’m wondering whether anyone else here chapped that you’re not serious or stupid.February 18, 2011 5:40 am at 5:40 am #742206
I’m sure there are countless Baalei Tshuvah who are now frum today and their first experience was driving to someones home to experience Shabbos. I’m not saying that’s right….I just know that Shabbos in particular touches the SOUL more so than any other day of the week and that’s where alot of the beginning inspiration to becoming frum comes from. Most people new to the concept of “frumkeit” would not accept an invitation to stay over for a full Shabbos when you are practically a stranger to them.
If you invite them for Shabbos, don’t ask how they got there.
When they arrive at your door…open and welcome them in.
My family is involved in Kiruv and we’ve been zoche to pe part of 3 couples becoming frum…and I mean frum with shaitels…kids in cheder..etc. and there are countless others at our Shabbos table who are identifying more strongly with their Jewish identity and heritage, where as before they were so enmeshed in the secular world and now they at least will not consider marrying goyim (they would’ve before). Their beginning journey to Yiddishkeit involved spending alot of Shabbosim with us…the zmiros, parsha, dvar torah’s and seeing Jewish family life at the highest point of the week has made a great impact on them.
Hatzlocha Rabbah to all those in Kiruv. May we constantly strive to bring every Jew closer to Torah and Mitzvos.
(P.S. I’m sure my parents consulted a Rov on the Shabbos inviting)February 18, 2011 5:55 am at 5:55 am #742207
regarding some of the posters saying that it should be arranged that the Non-frum guests should be attending a Shabbos meal at a nearby Shomer Shabbos home so they can walk there…..
First, YOU are the person they know and have a Kesher with….They want to spend time with YOU not a stranger (to them) who happens to live in their neighborhood.
Second, I would say that most of our Shabbos guests do not live walking distance to anything Frum. Remember, us..as a Frum Kehillah always try to reside in a Frum neighborhood, near Shuls, Kosher Markets etc. Someone not Frum is looking for Cheaper housing and living closer to restaurants, movie theaters and malls (and bars).February 18, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #742208mikehall12382Member
popcorn…I agree with everything you say…February 18, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #742209
i have taken the same risk a few times before and usually DO get taken seriously
but i suspect most readers simply said: “what in the world is he talking about?”February 18, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #742210
Popcorn, suggestions are given because the OP’s Rav specifically told him that HE can’t invite the friend for Shabbos, so the only way for the friend to experience a Shabbos was for him to set him up with someone else or for the OP to go against his RAV.
Kol Hakovod to you and your family, but you are not the one that asked for help. So what do YOU suggest the OP do?February 18, 2011 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #742211
WHAT IF you knew with complete 100% certainty that if you put a Buddhist Avoda Zora up and have not frum people bow to it – just once -, within 3 months many of them will become 100% completely frum Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos.
Is it permissible to have them take that little bow? Does the ends justify the means?February 18, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #742212popa_bar_abbaParticipant
So I was on a SEED program way out of town.
One Friday night, this guy shows up in shul, so rabbi invites him for meal.
Next shabbos, rabbi tells us to invite him for whole shabbos.
Guy says he won’t come for shabbos, but will come for meal.
We said we have to ask rabbi. Went back and forth a bit.
Rabbi doesn’t want to paskin so he tells us to call Rabbi Fuerst in chicago.
Rabbi Fuerst said we must call the guy back and tell him he is not invited.February 18, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #742213ItcheSrulikMember
How does your rov know that he will certainly drive home after the seuda? Ie what are his criteria for deciding that chazaka?February 18, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #742214
He doesn’t have to be “certain”; he can’t risk causing someone to be mechallel Shabbos. Especially such a strong risk.February 18, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #742216ItcheSrulikMember
Once again, what is a “strong risk.” BTW, you may have noticed that you just changed the din under discussion.February 18, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #742217
Here’s my thoughts. Of course we must always consult a Rav.
but just thinking…On Friday night (Shabbos) secular Jews are
driving around, getting together with friends, driving to movie theaters, restaurants, driving to a Broadway show..etc
It’s not like they are sitting home looking at the four walls on Friday night and that they would specifically be driving ONLY that evening to go to your Shabbos table. Wouldn’t it be better if they are already out on the town Friday in their car traveling for entertainment with friends that they could have a better purpose for the evening…..Joining you at a Shabbos table and being inspired and reawakening the “Pintele Yid” .
Just my thoughts. Gut Shabbos!February 18, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #742218
popcorn, I agree with the concept however if the RAV says NO, that is his answer and that is what he has to go by. If that is the psak halachah we can’t go by what our own heart tells us because there is a higher authority. My heart tells me the same, I am not “making” him drive on Shabbos, he will drive regardless of my request and he will eat a treif meal on top of eat. Maybe my question should be, should I invite this guy to my house Friday night so he can have a kosher Shabbos meal instead of him driving to McDonalds and have a treif meal? I wonder what the answer would be?
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