Lack of kovid hatorah.

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  • #1850564
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    There is a certain medical professional who is going online and publicly disparaging das torah because they have a different point of view in regards porch minyanim.
    The chutzpah and tone he uses is not to be believed, I am shocked that there in no outcry about his chutzpa.

    #1850777
    Joseph
    Participant

    Some idiots think they have a right to dispute Daas Torah. Don’t envy their acher meah v’esrim.

    #1850796

    I don’t understand you all!!!

    When Chassidishe Rabbonim support Minyanim, you go out against it, but when Litvisher Rabbonim support Minyanim, and someone goes out against it, it is CHUTZPAH?????

    #1850799
    yehudayona
    Participant

    COVID is spelled with a C, not a K.

    #1850793
    Beast of a dude
    Participant

    Anyone has a tip for cutting your own hair

    #1850882
    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    They’re not disputing their daas Torah. They’re disputing their daas refuah.

    #1850894

    I have not heard the words of this doctor but IMO he is equating Porch Minyanim with 10 people on one porch as opposed to the guidelines as detailed by the Lakewood poskim. There was actually a minyan like this in Flatbush during yom tov where families stayed on their porch or inside their house with the windows open and others across the street maintaining social distancing. I was not surprised the poskim reversed their previous psak when the NJ officials issued their guidelines on how to safely conduct these type of minyanim.

    #1850908
    Redleg
    Participant

    Beast, you could give yourself a G.I. haircut fairly easily. Leave the payos

    #1850926
    Rava
    Participant

    There is a out cry it just wont be found on the cnn of jewish news sites

    #1850946
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    He was very vocal about ANY porch minyan even if they are separate and was mivazah the rabbonim.

    #1851037
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    That’s a silly way of looking at things.

    This is like last year when a group of Rabbonim incorrectly stated in public that measles wasn’t a danger and schools must allow unvaccinated children in. A large group of doctors respectfully corrected their mistakes in order to reverse that machla. They weren’t disparaging da’as Torah nor being mevatel kavod haTorah then and this doctor isn’t doing it now.

    #1851083
    samthenylic
    Participant

    What did the Corona Virus teach us ? To be “Boreach min HaCovid.”

    #1851170
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1851242

    How many takeh died from the measles epidemic last year?

    #1851283
    rational
    Participant

    Enlighten me.
    Is there a shortage of people who use the internet and bash rabbonim? Why the commotion? Is he “going online” on a frum site or yeshivish blog? If not, who cares? If someone doesn’t like his opinion, they shouldn’t read his stuff. Stay on YWN where the exposure is limited to Da’as Torah.

    #1851676
    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    Why is listening to doctors a lack of kavod Torah?
    When your child has a high fever you don’t call your rabbi asking about the correct dosage of Tylenol. You call your pediatrician. Rabbis are experts in their field, but having smicha doesn’t mean you become public health expert. And during a pandemic we should give more weight to the knowledge and experience of doctors. They know what they’re doing.
    If you’re having a crisis of faith, call a rabbi. But don’t ask them for medical advice (unless they are also a licensed physician).

    #1851744
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Luna, closer example is one that in a doctor offers unsolicited opinion for example if something is doceh Shabbos and the rov rules otherwise, the doctor then goes to the bima and goes on a rant insulting the rov and threatens anyone who listens to him, That doctor would most likely be thrown out of the shul and told never to return.
    That is the closest example I could think of, not your analogy of a child with high fever

    #1851847
    The little I know
    Participant

    Luna:

    Excellent point.

    We have deified our rabbonim to the point where we believe they can answer every possible question or solve every possible problem. Meanwhile, they are unable to fix a leaky pipe, repair an automobile, fly an airplane, or make medical decisions. They may be well qualified to pasken halacha shailos. I found the anti-vaxx fiasco extremely disturbing, with many situations of rabbonim mixing into the subjects were they have zero training or expertise. As ling as the questions are medical, let the experts handle them. To whatever degree halacha is involved, these rabbonim need to accept the medical issue as determined by those experts, and then rule. I was terribly disappointed when rabbonim created their own halachos regarding vaccinations by disregarding the medical experts.

    Even rabbonim have areas of expertise. Most can reliably pasken about fleishig-milchig issues in the kitchen, and are probably adept at Shabbos and hilchos tefila. Can your local orthodox rabbi pasken matters of constructing a mikva? Perhaps, but not necessarily so. Questions that are specialty issues belong with the experts who can be reliable to provide direction.

    #1851854
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear common,
    Is the issue medical opinions, or kovod hatorah?

    If it is the latter, we should start with topics that are not vital. And, where the speaker is clearly advocating for the destruction of our Torah based community. There are many such personalities, some receive a lot of respect from us. Keep in mind that kovod hatorah includes using it as a tool to promote oneself. We shouldn’t ban someone that the community needs their service, even if they are of detrimental character. When the fireman arrives to extinguish the fire, his opinions do not matter.
    Though it seems to me that you are bothered by doctors giving opinions that interfere with the halachah. Well, in serious medical matters they have the right. One who has the knowledge to save lives, is required to do so. Even if it is not respect for the Rov, it is kovod hatorah to put jewish lives. This scenario happened many times, the cholora outbreak in Vilna, the cantonists, the Mir yeshiva’s escape, and so on. Today no one says that it was a lack of kovod hatorah. It is very clear that saving lives requires us not too ask to many halachic questions. The doctor has the solicited opinion of being docheh shabbos. Who would solicit someone with no medical knowledge, for a matter of life and death? If A rov says that you can drive to the hospital on shabbos for a hangnail, but you cannot for a child with a high fever, would you listen?
    P. S. I have no idea who this doctor is or what he said. And I am trying not to find out. If he was discussing politics or some other nonsense, I am not defending that.

    #1851887
    Joseph
    Participant

    If the gedolei rabbonim issue an edict on how to behave in a medical situation or, for that matter, on how handle the water pipes in your home, you’re required to follow their decision. End of discussion. The gedolei rabbonim themselves know what is and what is not within their purview to rule upon for the klan and for the yochid. If in fact they rule upon any given situation, be it kashrus, be it medical or be it the piping system in your home, you must follow through and carry out their decision.

    #1851906
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    If anyone thinks that a medical opinion from a Talmid Chacham with no training is considered Da’as Torah, I suggest you read the infamous letter from Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L regarding brain death. He starts of with stating that he is not a doctor and cannot comment on it so he defers to his MD son-in-laws opinion.

    #1851944
    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    If a rabbi rules that XYZ is assur, but according to the medical knowledge and experience of a doctor, doing XYZ is necessary to preserve the lives of people in that congregation, I would 100% expect the doctor to publicly object. Especially if the Rabbi’s ruling was made publicly and the lives of many people are at stake.
    Rabbis, as wise and learned as they are, are still human. They are fallible. And most of them are not medical experts. It could be that the doctor understands some aspect of the situation that the rabbi does not.

    #1851969
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    NoMisorah, Well I am taking about a specific person and a specific chutzpah where he was mivazah rabbonim who gave a psak halacha that he disagreed with, if you have no idea what this is about then its best not to offer a opinion, “milsa beselah shteka btray”

    #1851973
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yseribus: Factually incorrect. Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death. His son in law did not agree with Rav Moshe.

    #1851994
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear common,
    I am reacting for the kovod of the Torah, because you seem to be distorting Torah for an unclear motive. One should always talk respectfully, even when commenting online. (And even someone as unworthy as myself.) Even more so when it is directed at the educated, all the more when they are knowledgeable in Torah. But it is hard to hold someone who is working overtime on saving lives in the midst of an unprecedented event. There is no reason to assume he has extreme negative views of the Rabbanim. People say things and don’t really mean them.
    However, if like Joseph, you assume the Rabbonim have the final or only say on these matters, please tell us why that should be. Whether a Rav owns his shul or is hired by one, it goes with a large degree of following his directives in the shul and all the intercommmunal functions. Our porches and front yards are not part of his shul. Joseph stated “what is and what is not within their purview to rule upon for the klal”. saw tahave no idea how such an anti Torah idea became so mainstreamed. Maybe because for much of the diaspora, we chose to follow specific leaders in specific lands for all matters. The Torah only affords that authority to the court of 71 in the hewn chamber.
    May we all live to see the Glory Of Torah restored to it’s place.

    #1851995
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Joseph: You also said that COVID-19 is “just the flu” and nothing to worry about and quite a few other (extremely dangerous) falsehoods. So excuse me if I don’t believe your current trolling is any more correct than anything else that spewed from the gifts Hashem gave you.

    #1851996
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Yseridus This son in law is NOT a md, he has a PhD in biology.

    #1852025
    Phil
    Participant

    “So excuse me if I don’t believe your current trolling is any more correct than anything else that spewed from the gifts Hashem gave you.”

    Yserbius,

    According to the troll’s logic, if we are all automatically bound by the opinion of a “gadol” on plumbing matters when he doesn’t know a faucet from a flapper, then we are also obligated by “Asei L’cha Rav” to seek out their opinion regarding our pipes. Which raises the question, is the bigger fool the person who issues such a ruling or the person who follows it?

    #1852016
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yseribus: You’re a liar. I never said what you put in quotes attributing to me. In fact, I said nothing of that sort.

    #1852289
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    If I where you, I would assume that Yseribus is from the gedolei harabbonim and just accept what he says for the klal.

    #1852321
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    n0misorah ” People say things and don’t really mean them.” if that’s the case now I understand the chazal “milsa beselah sticka btray”
    Better he should be silent then “say something that he really didn’t mean”
    PS the clip show the extent of contempt he has to the Rabbonim

    #1852363
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    In fact, I said nothing of that sort.”

    You certainly did

    See your multiple comments in this thread “coronavirus-versus-the-seasonal-flu” (link below)

    Now granted you didnt type the words it is “just the flu” but you clearly tried (more than once) to highlight how it was no different than the flu. and when multiple posters there ( Yserbius , mammale , GH , myself) all (mis?) understood you as downplaying covid19 you didnt care to clarify

    (as an aside this is a prime example of your trolling. you are right you never actually said covid was “just the flu” but you deliberatly tried to stir doubt, and consternation. Even when it was clear that you were being “misunderstood” you didnt bother to clarify that “of course its worse than the flu, yo ujust are trying to understand bla bla… thank you for your answers I see it is in fact worse” you doubled down just “asking questions” even once they were answered )

    I’m curious if today you think Covid 19 is worse than the flu? “And there’s been 20,000 flu deaths so far this year in the United States. So as of now approximately 20,001 coronavirus deaths would be more than the number of flu deaths,”

    “Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death.”
    where can this psak be found ?
    I checked with R’ Dovid and R’ Reuvein they are not aware of it either It doesn’t appear in igros Moshe is it in a private stash of yours?

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coronavirus-versus-the-seasonal-flu

    #1852384
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says סיג לחכמה שתיקה the proof of wisdom is silence. Be silent to listen.

    #1852403
    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiq: Education 101 for you — a question is not a statement. Not even close.

    #1852421
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Reb Elliezer I was quoting Mesechtas Migilah Daf 18 umud alpeh

    #1852424
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    כי אתא רב דימי אמר אמרי במערבא מלה בסלע משתוקא בתרין:

    #1852426
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    ” a question is not a statement.”

    not quite true. A question can eb a statement or even an answer.
    Eg Question. Should I trust Joseph on Cornovirus? Answer – Do we ever trust him on anything ?

    Eg #2 Question: Is coronovirus worse than flu?
    Answer yes it is much worse becasue xyz
    Questioner: but is it really worse ?

    The implication of the second question is “I dont believe you regarding xyz”

    At any rate I never said “a question is not a statement” yoiu inferred that. Much liek the implication of your posts was that Covid was not that big a deal (as was pointed out several posters made this inference and you STILL havent clarified)

    in your post you weren’t asking any question. Look at your OP and title no question there. you just implied “innocently” that the flu was worse than Coronovirus ” so far the annual epidemic of seasonal flu in the United States is proving much more devastating than the coronavirus.”

    Then when posters pointed out why covid was worse yo udidnt say “thanks wow it is”
    you asked other “questions” even though they had already been answered.

    When you were asked to clarify as clearly so many misunderstood your post, you stopped posting.

    Here is another opportunity to clarify.
    what were you trying to accomplish with your post, Lets start with op . you jotted some factoids about covid vs flu. what was the point of that? Just sharing some knowledge? you say you were “asking questions” I dont see a question in the OP what was the point of that thread?

    #1852491
    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiq: You need to vastly improve on your reading comprehension (I won’t make an issue over your writing, spelling, sentence structure and logical abilities.) There was never any “implication” whatsoever; merely questions. Nothing more and nothing less.

    #1852404
    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiq: Regarding Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death, last evening I posted a letter from Rav Moshe Sherer ztl on that, here on this thread. As of yet the mods haven’t approved it. (Possibly due to its length.)

    Or not

    #1852556
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @commonsaychel My mistake! He’s often referred to as “Rabbi Doctor” and Rav Moshe ZT”L deferred to him on this shayloh, so I always assumed he was an MD.

    #1852555
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Can we have a vote to simply stop listening to @Joseph and responding to his trolling? People like him live for things like this, to get a whole message board into an uproar by lying, asking leading questions, playing word games, and touting fake news. Let’s just make a community decision to ignore him from now on.

    #1852606
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    joseph
    Lol!
    You STILL won’t clarify what you meant.
    and it wasn’t just me at least 4 posters understood you to be downplaying covid. I grant that in my rush to share my wisdom, I don;t proofread as I should, and that often results in difficult to understand postings.
    but I’ll always clarify (and again and again if needed as history has shown often to a fault) . you wrote a post that (you claim) was misunderstood by multiple posters, and you won’t clarify, so you cant really fault me for a lack of reading comprehension.

    “I won’t make an issue over your writing, spelling, sentence structure and logical abilities.”
    Thanks, plus that would be needlessly distracting .

    “There was never any “implication” whatsoever;”

    Are you concerned that several posters so misunderstood your post ?

    ” merely questions. Nothing more and nothing less.”
    There is no question in your OP. (unless it is an implied question in which case why not elaborate)

    “Regarding Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death, last evening I posted a letter from Rav Moshe Sherer ztl on that”
    Apologies, if you are referring to his letter 9/18/91, I’ve seen it. I thought you meant a psak from R’ Moshe Feinstein not R Moshe Sherer. My apologies, I guess that was poor reading comprehension on my part.

    #1852626
    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe absolutely did not defer to him on this. In fact, Tendler disputed Rav Moshe’s decision on brain death and tried to get New York State to legislate against the Orthodox definition of death. When Rav Moshe Sherrer informed Rav Moshe about this, Rav Moshe forced his SIL to retract his letter to the New York State Assemblyman.

    #1852805
    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiq; I wasn’t paid to teach you elementary school English nor am I responsible for those lacking minimum language skills who misread a very basic posting. I don’t intend to spend time explaining what the plain text makes obvious to any literate reader. Nevertheless, as your’e quite persistent on this I’ll very briefly assume the role of your sixth grade English teacher to explain some rather obvious points.

    The title of the post merely explains the topic it intends to discuss. It isn’t a statement nor does it take any position on said topic. As such, “Coronavirus versus the Seasonal Flu” merely clarifies it intends to discuss the differences and/or similarities between the two. It does not mean anything more than that. My title did not imply whatsoever “that the flu was worse than coronovirus”, as you absurdly claim above. (Now do you better understand my frustration and aversion to replying to ridiculous assertions? Not replying to ludicrous misinterpretations in no way signifies any admission.)

    “Here is another opportunity to clarify.
    what were you trying to accomplish with your post”

    Simply, as a non-medical professional, to understand the severity of the novel coronavirus. As the name implies, the virus is new; and as is known, it isn’t yet well understood even by virusologists. I was simply hoping for a discussion to better understand it, especially its severity.

    Capish? (I could repost this in Yiddish if you think that might help you. 🙂

    #1852842
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I wasn’t paid to teach you elementary school English”

    Sadly nobody was. I went to a chasidish elementary school… this is what happens .

    “nor am I responsible for those lacking minimum language skills who misread a very basic posting.”
    Of course you arent responsible. But most people would be bothered if their post was so misunderstood by several people, and would clarify. ESPECIALLY when asked to.

    “The title of the post …”
    I wasnt just referring to just the title. In your OP there is no question. There is just an “innocent observation ” tha many posters, some who agreed and most who didnt interpreted differently than you claim you intended

    “Capish?(I could repost this in Yiddish if you think that might help you.
    Dont worry. I got it 100%. No need to repost Yserbius got it too.
    In fact most of us who have read your posts over the years got it.

    #1852944
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    The problem with “Just asking question” illustrated with examples
    from actual social media threads I found online (and one or two I made up based on stuff I’ve heard)

    • Does anyone else think the Holocaust was an inside job?
    • Why do we still follow the rulings of chauvinist Rabbis who knew nothing about women’s anatomy?
    • How do Orthodox Jews make a living if they don’t work?
    • Was the Holocaust and other anti semantic events bloated to create pity?
    • Do Jews dominate in American media?
    • Why is there one historical event that can get you jail time if you question its authenticity?
    • Why does the Talmud say that non Jews are cattle?
    • Why are Orthodox Jewish women so oppressed?
    • Where did the mystical number 6 million come from?
    • Is Coronavirus any worse than the seasonal flu?

    As an aside, no one has yet to produce this fantastical psak by Rav Moshe Feinstein via Rav Moshe Sherer. I would assume it would be more well known as it directly contradicts Rav Moshe’s famous letter to a doctor (אגרות משה חלק ט) that his children published where he clearly states that he doesn’t have the expertise but his son-in-law does.

    #1852965
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yseribus: What happened to your vote about ignoring me? I would have thought you’d have waited at least 24 hours before forgetting. 🤣

    Regarding Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death, the letter from Rav Sherer that I submitted to this thread (see the above discussion and acknowledgement from ubiquitin) discussed Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death.

    P.S. The “one or two I made up based on stuff I’ve heard”, as you put it, are made up indeed.

    #1852984
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Joseph Eh. Once @ubiquitin wasn’t on board I figgered there’s little point. Also I don’t have all the free time that you do, so it’s hard to keep up with your sheer volume of comments.

    According to the mods this alleged letter was never submitted. Since the way you are describing it contradicts with a different very well known and publicized letter, I have my doubts that it says what you think it says.

    I didn’t outright make them up, I just couldn’t find one or two of the original threads so I based the titles off of memory. My point has been made, “just asking questions” isn’t a valid defense, and yet you still don’t respond. Why not?

    #1852991
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yseribus: Ubiquitin not only acknowledged the existence of the letter from Rav Moshe Sherer ztl that describes Hagaon HaRav Moshe’s position on brain death that he explicitly stated is the opposite of Tendler’ position, but ubiquitin also correctly noted the date of Rav Sherer’s letter demonstrating he well knew the referenced letter.

    I’ve responded more than once. I’d rather not be repetitive. If someone doesn’t like the response that’s their issue.

    And in the future you’d do yourself well to not falsely quote someone with quotation marks stating something he didn’t say.

    #1853000
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    yserbius
    I realize that you probably know this, but Joseph is lying “the letter from Rav Sherer that I submitted to this thread (see the above discussion and acknowledgement from ubiquitin) discussed Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death.”
    The letter mentioned does NOT discuss R’ Moshe’s Psak on Brain death (also worth noting Joseph initlaly said “Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death.” for him to then claim he meant an unpublished psak alluded to in a letter by R’ Moshe Sherer, a letter which is not easy to find…. I mean to call that a stretch requires stretching the word stretch.)
    The letter is R’ Sherer recalling a meeting with R’ Moshe in which he accused R’ Tendler of misrepresenting R’ Moshe’s opposition to A Brain death bill in NYS. The outcome of the meeting was a letter (written in 1976) R’ Moshe wrote to Assemblyman Miller (this is easy to find online). Tellingly R’ Msohe does NOT say in the say he rejects brain death, in fact in the letter to Assemblyman Miller he ENDORSES brain death “the sole criterion of death is the total cessation of spontaneous respiration” (He did however have strict criteria to how the testing is to be done)

    As to
    “Can we have a vote to simply stop listening to @Joseph and responding to his trolling? ”
    I like it its fun.

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